Falko

Where exactly does "opinion" end and "effort" start in your book? Where to draw the line? It has to be drawn somewhere, that much is clear. Germanys interpretation of that "line" is stricter in the cases I mentioned. The same "restraint to preclude criminal actions" thingy is active in the US too. We can spend all night bargaining about the "level of restraint" in each of our countries, but I don't think it proves anything. That's for a different thread. I can tell the difference. But the line between "agreeing" and "spurring" is a thin one, don't you agree? It's open to interpretation, and that is what germany did, in a stricter sense than what you're maybe used to. It really doesn't make me feel I live in a less freer society. Exactly: We're only talking degree here. There isn't a fundamental difference in freedom of speech between Germany and the US. We both have it, and we both have it restricted in some way. That statement as a whole is simply not true: - Yes, there are guidelines. Those apply mainly to form and choice of words. - No, there are no restrictions to certain political persuasions (except totalitarism), for example there are parties advocating german nationalism. There's a communist party as well etc. Maybe the german people thought back in 1949 that "freedom would dictate" that it (the freedom) be protected in a way so that noone will ever be able to advocate a totalitarian system again. An emotional, maybe irrational thing, but hey at least that's what I call a proper popular mandate! Maybe that's their way of "shouting it down" forever. It really depends on the point of view. And if at some point the german people will favor a totalitarian system again, they would change that law. But I assure you that's not going to happen. Like I said already: It was more the worry of the allies than that of the germans. IIRC they even tried to avoid that germany will ever have an own army again. And I'm perfectly okay with that. I'm also okay with the fact that I'm forbidden to drive drunken, kill people, steal, rape etc... What Merkur said. Come on gimme a break: "Because no one [...]" yeah sure, uh-huh, you also believe that there's THEM, or some kind of media conspiracy preventing the news of rising anti-semitic crimes. Have you ever watched the german news? If there is even the smallest racist or anti-semitic crime, it's in the corresponding news media, regional or federal, paper or TV, whatever.... believe me, it is covered. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

No. Only in the loosest, most flippant sense is this any kind of infringement on your "rights." You are describing the criminalization of a person's WANTS, even when he has stopped short of ACTUALLY taking away anyone's civil rights. The notion of this is SICK. If you consider words to be nothing, and deeds to be everything, you'd be right. If someone threatens to murder a person, they cannot be charged with murder. But they can be charged with harassment. Words are not a void! So I cannot see my argument to be "flippant" or superficial. Yes. I thought in the US it was also possible to sue for libel and slander? Yes. If he can provide witnesses or other evidence. I'm not confused at all, am actually very sure about that. Either one of us two is misinformed or the US/german laws on libel suits differ greatly. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

Good example: The "incitement to riot" is one of the very few things that are illegal to promote in public. Yes, I don't see a problem with that. "Simply"? You don't find it outrageous if someone demands publicly that a minorities civil rights be taken away? If someone publicly calls for a criminal act, they aide the act which will most probably follow later. Those who then conduct the act are being prosecuted for it, that's normal. And those who promoted it publicly are being charged for "aiding" a criminal act. AFAIK it's the same in the US, correct me there? Or can you stand on a stage and publicly request that every white man please take a club and bash the next black mans head in? How long until you would get arrested? Oh duh I forgot it's all freedom of speech. And since you only SAID something, how can that be illegal? Good to know your priorities. German society has opened up discourse back in the year 1945, to be exact, and later in 1949 when the Federal Republic of Germany was founded by passing the constitution. Since then the discussion is being held each day, everywhere. What a ridiculous statement. Hey in case you haven't noticed: We are a free people, enjoying the same human and civil rights as you. And the laws that are active in this country have been passed "by the people for the people". The US and german system differ less than you might think. You give the impression as if we have a "speech policing", only because we have these very few restrictions of what you may say in public: - No signs and symbols of the Third Reich - No denial of the Holocaust - No promotion of discrimination - No promotion of a totalitarian system. Personally I feel no restriction of my freedom of speech by that. But that's just me. Nope -- 'cause that would be thoughtcrime, and we can't have that! One may think all they want. That's not illegal. Paint all your walls with Swastikas, noone cares. What is illegal is promoting these symbols publicly! The german people wanted it this way. If you feel your freedom of speech is too much restricted because of that, then you have to go somewhere else. Given the german history I find that understandable. In the strictest sense, it is a restriction of your freedom of speech. Too bad noone in germany perceives it as such... except very few shitheads whose degenerated brain can hardly manage to speak at all anyway. I repeat: It's being discussed every day. Back in 1949 you might have been right, there was a fear that germany would at some point in the future return to a fascist system. But that fear has long been overcome. Welcome to the present. If there is any fear of that today or has been in the last decades, it was in other countries who still didn't trust the germans. (You know, most germans are still nazis, or at least evil to the bone, yes it's true I've seen it in the movies. They always play the bad guys. ) The german people themselves are far beyond any doubt that there ever will be neonazis back in power. There's just no fucking way. But not because a law prevents it, or because we may not display Swastikas publicly any more... but because we've "been there, done it, and we know it sucks!" Hey I found my sense of humor again. Oh doh, Germans don't have that. And we don't "clamp down on anything they might have to say". Like I said before, right wing parties get their fair share of speech time in a parliament. But they have to mind their choice of words. A simple "We want all jews and turks deported" wouldn't do it. The right wing whackos have to acknowledge a minorities rights in their political speeches nowadays. Oh damn what a censorship that is! A thought can not be criminalized. But "we" have criminalized a political system that almost killed whole races and peoples, including our "own". Notice the quotation marks... I don't really identify myself with germany or countries in general that much. If I had to categorize myself in terms of a nationality, I'd consider myself a European more than I'm "german". (Am half dutch anyway) But I digress... By the way "you" as the US helped to set it up. Thanks for that by the way. We believe it works well! It sure is, but like I said above, thought is not suppressed nor is political speech. Of course if you find any regulative law there is whatsoever to be a "suppression", you're right by definition. I wonder how many laws you have in the US that somehow restrict or "shape" your civil and human rights. Oh how suppresive that is... cheers Falko PS: There's no irony markup tag, sorry... Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

Non smoker, voted "illegal" if it's in a public place. That quote really says it all: "I'm getting more militant by the day with people fighting for their right to polute my lungs." Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

Agreed. (Glad you got the irony) Personal freedom ends where one restricts the freedom of others or hurts their rights. It's all a question of definition, "what is a right"? Does it hurt my rights if someone spouts racist hatred publicly. Yes it does: He wants to take away civil rights of a minority . Does it hurt my rights if someone gives me the finger on the highway? Yes it does: It's an insult. Try it: Go tell your boss he's an a$§h0le. How much would that be worth in a lawsuit? Yes they are. 130 HP do it for me. I feel very comfortable at 220km/h (~135mph) as it's fast bellyflyer speed. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

German law does not outlaw any kind of political speech, as long as it complies with the german constitution. Hell they even protect right wing party demonstrations with police force, paid by my taxes. That's democracy! There are a few restrictions though: You may not say in public that you'd like the democratic parliamentary system replaced by a dictatorial leadership or the like. And you also may not say that you'd like any ethnical/cultural minority deported or worse. The display of signs and symbols of the Third Reich is also forbidden. You also may not deny that the Holocaust took place. I hope that kind of "restrictive law" doesn't make germans look too much "lefty euro socialist". As for the political parties: Even f***ing idiots like the NPD (extreme right wing) get their fair share of speech in the parliament of the Federal state of Sachsen. So much for out healthy democracy, which let's and I quote you "public discourse sort out who's right and who's wrong". Major BS! "They're" is an over-simplification addressing the german people as a whole. It's as if I was saying "All americans are [fill in cliché here]". You wouldn't like that would you? Have you ever been to germany or studied the facts about our political system? If not then maybe you shouldn't judge so quickly. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

Bwahaha!!! Good one! Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

How about a "second gear" choice in the profile? The trend is owning a second gear. Many people already have two rigs! Also good for the BASE dudes. Most of them own two sets of gears, one for skydiving, one for BASE. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

I second that! It really doesn't do any harm adding the tunnel time in the profile. Tunnel Forum: I'm all for it! There are plenty of questions & answers that only relate to the Tunnel freefall. Also, a lot of old tunnel related threads could be moved there. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

I don't think the terms "Evolution" and "Creation" necessarily oppose each other. Seems to me that some people who so fiercely bash the Theory of Evolution and defend "Creation" have no picture in mind about how that creation took place. God snapping his fingers and suddenly men appeared on the face of the earth out of a big bubble in space or what? If I was a christian, I would probably believe that creation took place through Evolution, as it is "God's plan". All Life and beings are still in the process of being created. Those "7 days" are not over yet. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

Didn't know that, thanks for the info. OK, agreed. Yup don't poke yourself in the eye when you're taking of your goggles or so. It really has, which is why I'd like to see the two systems combined somehow. Would make for the "perfect toggle". That's exactly what I like about them. I like the feeling of increased pressure as compared to "broader" toggles. It's really a matter of taste. Only proves to me that it's a bad idea to not enclose a toggle in the fist. Sorry for the guys, but if you lose a toggle it's your own fault. Not saying that it's what happened to them, but I often see people in a swoop having the toggles pulled over the palm of their hands, with hands open, palm facing the earth. The "spread eagle" extra-cool swooping landing or whatever one could call this. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

I'd like to blame it on that fact! I just tried again to unstow the toggles just by pulling downwards, to no avail! (With a taut riser) Then again, who knows which weird things can happen in a bad opening: If I can manually unstow them by pushing upwards+pulling downwards, it's also possible that they could become unstowed accidentally. There's no 100% failsafe system. Still I find that the PdF Toggles have the most secure fastening method I've seen so far. I can't tell, don't have a picture of your risers. Would you upload a photo? Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

Bwahahaa!!! That must have felt gooooooood. Anyhow, it wasn't very smart. (But I can relate to your feelings, believe me!) I'd second Airtwardo on the "write everything down" stuff! That's smart and will have you prevail over the whiny bitch in the end. And that will be a much better feeling than writing that note. You already paid a high price for that, as of now it's "1:0" for the bitch. Maybe next time leave him a note saying where he can find new pens, and add a 50c coin to it with a "PS: In case there are no more pens left in the tool room, there's a shop down the road." They cannot get you on that one. edit: I voted #2 and #4 Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

Hm no, that was my first thought too but it wouldn't work. The TruLok pin points upwards, thus allowing the excess steering line loop to be fixated between the toggle and the riser. On the PdF-Risers, the lower of the two "stiff fabric pins" points downwards. So even if that was to be replaced with a metal pin, it wouldn't be a good idea to put it through the steering line loop as this would be the first step to a steering line knot. Nope don't want a metal pin near my palm! The Nose pin of the PdF-Toggles doesn't seem that dangerous to me because it lays on top of the hand where the steering line is attached to the toggle. Unlikely that I will use the top of my hand to brace for impact. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

I'm German and don't know the French very well, but my guess is they simply didn't account for fools in skydiving, as it's a dangerous activity that requires alertness and precision. j/k No seriously: I admit it's possible to mishandle the storing of these toggles, but with proper instruction it shouldn't be a problem. I never stored my brakes the wrong way in 500 jumps, simply because it feels "too easy" to put the pin through the grommet. It does require a little sleight of hand. (The girls tell me I have that skill, so no problem ) I luckily only had very few really hard openings where the slider got slammed down so rapidly that it would end up with the grommets under or on the toggles. Even then it didn't dislocate the pin. I tried it on the ground and didn't manage to get the toggles unstowed when: (1) the riser was straight and (2) one pulled directly downwards (as the direction of force would be when the slider slams down) But back to topic: What do you think about the pocket that could be stitched to the back of the riser? Would that void the TSO or would it only be a "minor modification"? Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

No, there is also a pin at the bottom of the toggle that locates in a pocket in the riser. Yes I noticed, but I didn't think it provided enough static friction to actually keep the toggle in place. It seems to me that in your case you were just lucky that the pin didn't get pulled out by the steering line? Because: On Page 3, Picture 5 of this document it looks as if the direction of force of the pulling excess steering line would be downwards or at least sideways (relative to the riser), still allowing for the pin to become unstowed if the force is just great enough. Maybe you could test that? Would be interesting to find out. Thanks! Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

Is that "hood" also an elastic? If it is, could it become worn out at some point, so that the toggle-nose could slide out on a hard opening? The way I understand the design, that hood is the only attachment point keeping the toggle in place. Of course I'm not "officially" qualified to judge the different designs... no rigger rating and all. But looking at different riser-designs with common sense gives some interesting food for thought. I'm still pondering about a way to fixate the excess steering line so that it is really "locked" until one releases the toggle. Have something in mind, but... So far I only see one less-than-perfect way: Add another pocket on the back of the riser. (see photo). It could be stitched on the riser once the canopy choice, i.e. the length of the excess steering line is known. Or the pocket could be much more longish, kinda one-size-fits-all.

A few pictures of my PdF-Risers/Toggles. Seems to me that if properly stowed, a break fire is virtually impossible. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

Hi Terry, That's funny, I was just about to post the following old quote of yours when I received the "Reply to your Post" email notification. I thought like "damn howTF does he know?" Anyway, your quote which I found in this thread... ... suddenly made me aware of the fact that the metal pin of the RWS risers has the potential to puncture the hand, when one braces for impact with toggles in hand. Ouch! Back to the current thread: But the grommet could still unstow the toggle just with the frictional force on it's way down the riser? In which way are they similar? Like "Hippo" in this animation? (Source) Ok I'm still thinking about how the PdF Risers could be modified so they would account for the excess steering line. Have something in mind already, will think about it on my way home. Thanks for input!

Having read this thread in the S&T Forum, I've thought about how to combine the nice features of RWS-Risers and Parachute-de-France Risers. Quoting from my original post: My question is: How can the good features of the PdF Toggles (securing against accidental unstowing) and RWS Toggles (securing the excess steering line) be combined? Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

I've looked at the photos in the Manual of the TruLok Risers, trying to understand in which way they are "locked" (as the name suggests). It seems a toggle could accidentally be released by the slider-grommet slamming down on it, or by pulling the slider down to store it behind your neck. Since I don't have RWS-Risers, can someone confirm please? Is that what happened here? I jump an Atom Legend and find the way the toggles are stored to be very secure, while still convenient to pack and easy to release in flight. (What I don't like about the PdF-Risers is them being reversed, but that's another Thread!) See the Pdf-Riser Manual (page 4). The "nose" of the PdF-Toggles is made up of a Pin (very similar to that on the TruLok Risers) which prevents the slider grommets from ever touching it on deployment. The pin lays snug on the riser so that the diameter of the slider grommet is too wide to allow touching the nose. Secondly, the Toggles have two stiff folds of fabric (attachment points) pointing downwards, so that even if the slider would rub on the toggles, they wouldn't come unstowed. The opposite is the case: The toggle would become "even more stowed" (if that's possible at all). Once you've stored the slider, you release the toggles with a quick movement upwards, so the 2 attachment points come out of their pockets, then pull down so the nose-pin releases. It sounds more complicated than it is, it's all "one" quick movement. Anyway, this post is not about bashing RWS risers. I very much like the way the TruLok Risers store the excess steering line. That's a good feature because you really don't need to worry about any loops and knots. My question is: How can the good features of the PdF and RWS Risers be combined? EDIT: Crossposted to Gear & Rigging, Clicky! Seems to make sense to discuss my question there. (?) Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

I can relate! What's it about? Good luck!!!

You bet!! Testosterone level is always trying to keep up with the adrenaline. Doctors are still trying to figure out why that is, but I don't care anyway. Endorphines my way!!! Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

You know what's ugly? Misanthropric statements like these: Thread1, Thread2. Nothing wrong in critizising that, don't you think? If "everybody" is pissed, then I couldn't care less. I'm stunned by the amount of ignorance and discrimination I find among my "fellow skydivers" in these forums. Then again, who cares... Next time I'm bored I won't read SC again, don't worry. About my comment on your post: I call BS because skydiving has nothing to do with being "fearless of death". Noone is... I'd like to see your face when faced with a hopeless situation 2 seconds away from impact. Of course you'd stay cool, you wouldn't blink and just take it like a real alpha-male, huh? Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

Just for the majority here who doesn't speak german: "Abteilung der Heimatsicherheit" translates "Department of Homeland Security". I bite my tongue eeeh fingers and don't comment on that. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)