br0k3n

What utter utter crap…. I notice this a lot with religious people, to class Atheists as people that have “belief system. It’s almost as though they are trying to reduce Atheist to their level of accepting un-evidenced dogma. Maadmax, where we differ is that you have a belief that “ignorance is superior to Empirical Knowledge. Where I see no credible empirical or scientific evidence for god and therefore reject the notion. This is not a “belief system” at all. There is absolutely no similarity between you and me; I only accept facts, whereas you find no need for them. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

So let me ask you this, do you have an overwhelming urge to rape and pillage, but you don’t because you believe some sky god is watching over you??? Because life is for living, not existing… unfortunately for far to many people (those stuck in religious doctrine) life is about existing, because they are expecting a glorious afterlife, and sacrifice their life for this belief. Beside do you require a reason to live? Probably not, I think we would be very ignorant to believe otherwise. Well there are several theories about this topic, One of the most widely accepted theories of how the universe began, is the Big Bang Theory , which states that our universe began with a giant explosion. There are three pieces of evidence supporting the theory. 1. As far as we can tell, the universe is still expanding today. 2. The abundance of chemicals that correctly account for the hot dense stage that followed the Big Bang. 3. The existence of heat radiation that is the suspected "afterglow" of the Big Bang. This piece (point 3) last evidence so conclusively confirmed the theory of the universe's beginning that Stephen Hawking said, "It is the discovery of the century, if not of all time." Now there are other theories like the theory of creation, however so far to date it is a theory without 1 single piece of evidence to support it… I guess that is enough for starters..... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

A tad harsh, don't you think?

This is how I interpret two famous accounts in Genesis (a portion of one of my blogs) So vastly different than trying to make a science or history book out of Genesis God is both creative and relational. We see God’s creativeness in the design of the universe. In this universe we see diversity and purpose. Billions and billions of stars and planets surround our world. Most of them invisible to the naked eye, yet they are part of God’s plan for our world. To me this illustrates God is creative beyond all measure. God’s creations on earth are equally diverse. Billions of bugs and animals, along with billions of people are as diverse as the stars are numerous in the skies. God made us to be unique and I believe he relishes in that fact of his creation. As mankind’s population grew so did our knowledge and skills. We were created with the ability to make choices. It is that ability to choose our own paths that produce the dichotomy of God’s creation that grieved him. We are free to choose paths that take us away from God as well as to choose the paths that draw us closer. Mankind’s choices fractured the relation we were created for. God was seeking communion with man, but only on a level that included man’s free will. It is mankind’s free will that makes our relationship with God genuine and intimate. However, every desire of man was evil and contrary to the nature of God. God’s own free allowed him to bring destruction to his creation. After this judgment mankind’s penchant for evil had not changed, but God’s response to man’s evil did. Man’s sin broke the relationship we had with God. In the Biblical account our sin drove God to cast man farther east from paradise, and in many ways further from God. God’s response to the descendants of Noah was different than God’s initial response to Adam’s family. Instead of moving them farther east, and farther away from himself, God began to draw man nearer to him. Through his prophets, his son, and his spirit, God worked again to restore the relationship he had with mankind from the beginning. Yet again all this rambling describes, is your personel feelings, still there is not a shred up evidence to support any of what you have said.... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

I guess that would be a question you'd have. My questions would be a lot different. Why would you not ask this question, as it is rather pertinent to you beliefs? Whether or not God will perform tricks to convince me he is real is not pertinent to my belief system. Maybe yours ... not mine. I would hardly call it “performing tricks”, I think it is a perfectly reasonable question to ask. Your god according to his dogma wants me to believe, however seems rather unwilling to provide any reason or evidence to suggest that I should. There isn’t a single authentic record of anyone meeting him, speaking to him or even seeing him, there are no recorded pictures of him and there is no supporting evidence to suggest that the stories in the bible are correct. He expects me to spend time and try and interpret a 2000-year-old book that is full of incontinences, factual errors hearsay evidence and is completely unverifiable. Also it is one of many holy books that make similar claims. Now how this does not strike you as rather odd baffles me, he is supposed to be this all mighty all powerful dude yet is incapable of showing people that he is real, how hard can it be??? How would you feel if the police turned up at your front door tomorrow and told you that your neighbours had been brutally murdered and that they had a feeling that you did it, and your off to jail for the rest of your life. When you ask for some evidence they tell you they don’t have any, and there not going to look for any or ask any questions as they just believe that you did it… would you happy with that???? Of course you wouldn’t so why should I????? Blind Faith I’m afraid is not good enough, I want proof, and I don’t think it is much to ask. I think Stephen F. Roberts sums it up rather nicely with his quote "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" And also it turns out Mother Teresa questioned her faith and realised the truth ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

I guess that would be a question you'd have. My questions would be a lot different. Why would you not ask this question, as it is rather pertinent to you beliefs? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

This is fun. now Well thanks to John Rich I learned yesterday that by using google for 30 minutes I have enough material to start about 10 threads "John Rich style" poo pooing the US on domestic issues if I wanted to. All this by sitting here in sunny Melbourne (it's wonderfull early spring weather right now) on the other side of the globe. Well at least I have been in the US many times and visited about 10 different States. John has never been in the UK. I think we should hold a collection for him to buy a ticket (one way?) so he can get himself arrested for gun possesion, bashed and stabbed in London and then registred in a database... I am always happy to discuss US foreign policy as it affects us outside the US. I would however normally never get into US domestic issues. I do not live there, it's not really my business, and I have not enough first hand knowledge.... if just JR would think this way..... where do i donate :-) ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

So those who fail to see evidence of God's existence are "without excuse”, this means that god can be found through reason alone….. however Job 11:7 clearly contradicts this “Canst thou by searching find out God?. “ If I’m right in my assumption then it undermines everything about Christianity to a degree, god will understand why I do not believe in him, after all, old Thomas needed to see him in the flesh before he would believe he was risen, so im just that same.. Therefore I can live my life sinning away merrily and at the end if ive got I all wrong and im stood at the pearly gates, god will say “I understand why you were non believer, and in my infinite mercifulness I forgive you, now come in, collect your wings and harp from old Gabriel here and have a great time, glad to have you on board”. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

No, Im asking you a question that you can answer… based on your you belief is my statement a fair one to assume... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

That is what you are betting on. And you said you weren't betting on anything. It was a retorical question.. so do you agree its a fair statement? "I" wouldn't bet "my" eternal life on it. you god folk are a wriggly bunch, stop dodging my question ... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

That is what you are betting on. And you said you weren't betting on anything. It was a retorical question.. so do you agree its a fair statement? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Yes, but did I ever say faith in God is a science? My love for my wife and kids cannot be measured accurately with science. Does it not exist? You miss the point again, whilst you might not be able to "measure" love, you could certainly using "scientific method" prove that it exists.. (May 31, 2005) A team led by a neuroscientist, an anthropologist and a social psychologist found love-related neurophysiological systems inside a magnetic resonance imaging machine. They detected quantifiable love responses in the brains of 17 young men and women who each described themselves as being newly and madly in love. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

You've changed..... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Currently based on all known scientific evidence, the logical and only conclusion is that there is no life after death. If you have evidence otherwise then please share it... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

That doesn't work for me. This does though ... John 20:27 - 29 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." [empahsis mine] Of course it doesn’t work for you, Steve, its just cop out after cop out to try and defend you belief… you simply cannot deny the fact that the “complete and utter” lack of any scientific evidence can only be interpreted as there is no god. Until evidence is found this is the only logical position. As I understand John20 tells us about “doubting Thomas” who refused to believe until he saw JC in the flesh. The “blessed are those who have not seen me” refers to the fact that you and I don’t have the benefit of seeing and hearing the resurrected Christ the way Thomas, Mary, John, and the other disciples did. You and I are called upon to believe without seeing. Now unfortunately this method of “believing without seeing” is just not acceptable to science, where do you think we would be today if this methodology was used. Science is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning, the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. This method is the cornerstone of modern understanding, you cant simply dismiss it because it fails to fit your belief system??? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

A cursory knowledge of scripture would let you know that is not true. God will judge manking based on the knowledge they had. God is fair and merciful in his judgment. Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education So in my case, im safe either way, as my “knowledge” through education, experience, information and facts is that there is no god/gods, however if I have got it wrong then your god being fair and merciful will understand and forgive me… ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

QuoteAlso, while it is fun at times to debate I realize according to scripture true atheists will never see God unless they change their world view and core belief to open themselves up for the "possibility" of God's existence. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him Quote So what happens to the millions of people that have never heard of Christianity or JC, the aboriginal people here in Australia, obscure tribes in Africa, and other nations… they just burn in hell do they??? as there never going have faith in your god as theve never heard of him, or heard of your religion.. and to not accept your god comes with a hot poker up the ass from a angry red man with horns.. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

First let me say JR, you never fail to put a smile on my face, and for that I thank you.. Anyway being one of the many people that have left the UK over the years for other shores, (although i don’t remember any running) let me shed some light on this phenomenon for you.. I moved to Australia about 6 years ago now, and over the years I have been living here I have met many expats, who's reasons for leaving the UK have all been the same, also my parents are in the process of retiring here for these very same reasons.. Now you might be "shocked" to realise that we are not all leaving the UK because of its "Big Brotherism" or because we fear about our safety with increases in crime. No im afraid the truth of the matter is much simpler...... Its "The weather", and the lifestyle that goes with it. Why do you think Spain and Australia have such a high population of Expats... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Like my old ma used to say "Guns for show, knives for a pro......." ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

You know the thing is I agree, I wasn’t saying that 500 years from now nobody would believe in Gods, I’m sure they will. Its does seem that we as a human race have an incredible ability to self delude ourselves even in the face of cold hard facts. As an example lets look at dowsers, now dowsing has to be one of the most widely debunked pseudo-scientific beliefs out there. There is not a shred of evidence to support it, every test ever done has proven it to be no better then chance, and yet people who claim to be able to dowse simple dismiss all this evidence. As an example watch this Clip its a definitive, double-blind, by Professor Chris French examining the dowsing phenomenon, it is the reactions by the dowsers at the end that is interesting. It is this same self-delusion that keeps religion alive today, and will keep it alive for years to come. Even when we get to a point in time when we can prove the origins of the earth, when we can prove evolution, there will be people we will just ignore the facts, and continue on believing what they want to believe. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

And how will science do that? I think it would be incredible naive to believe that religion will stand the test of time, now I don’t say this because I think that science will prove that Gods do not exist but because we will without doubt reach a point in time where our understanding of the universe, and the origins of man is so great and the evidence we have to support that understanding through the advancement in science, is simply so overwhelming that to still hold faith in a higher power will be absurd. Now this might not be for 100 years, or it might even be 500 years from now. So why do I think this, well first of all science is constantly evolving and our knowledge and understanding is constantly growing, whilst religious understanding is stagnant and stuck in the past. An example of this would be Creationism, whilst science continues to examine evolution and the credible evidence to support it grows, Creationist simply sticks to the blanket statement that there was a creator, however still to this day have no supporting evidence because creationist do not look for that evidence, they do not test the theory of creation. So if we take this example lets imagine where we will be in say 200,300 years, creationist will still be making the same untested claim, however by this time the body of evidence that science will have, compared to today will be enormous and will be continuing to grow. So it is logical to assume that there will be a point in time that evidence to support evolution is SO huge this it simply can’t be refuted, so where will that leave the creationist, and the believers.. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Atheism isnt a religion by the way... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Here 10 to get you started that I asked, I have more… 1. Why is there no credible evidence to support the story Christ in the bible? 2. Where is the Holy Grail 3. Where is Noah’s Ark 4. Where is the ark of the covenant 5. Why should I reject Allah, Vishnu, Budda, Waheguru and all of the thousands of other gods that other people worship today. Have 1.4Billion+ Muslims got it all wrong? 6. Whys is there not a shining cross in the night sky to remind us all 7. According to the bible Jesus heals a blind man, why did he not just cure blindness all together? 8. Why does “power of Prayer” prove every time it is tested not to work 9. Why are Most of the key points in Christianity not original? The pre-Christian God Mithras - called the Son of God and the Light of the World - was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days. By the way, December 25 is also the birthday or Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Even Christianity's weekly holy day was stolen from the pagans." 10. Why doesn't Jesus appear to everyone and prove that he is resurrected, just like he appeared to Paul? There is nothing to stop Jesus from materializing in your kitchen tonight to have a personal chat with you. And if you think about it, Jesus really does need to appear to each of us. If Paul needed a personal visit from Jesus to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why wouldn't you? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Here's a an anology, My Wife knows I like coffee and vegemite toast in the mornings. So this morning she was awake before me and made me a cup of coffee and some toast and left it on the kitchen table, knowing that when I walked in I would drink the coffee and eat the toast. So in I walk and see the coffee and toast, I drink the coffee and eat the toast. Did my wife preordain this, or I choose freely??? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

what questions are you asking? Presently or in the past? dont mind, alright presently then... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+