pms07

Yes, mikieb made some vague but serious accusations and seems unwilling to give specifics or explain even what he expected to accomplish in this forum with his original post. I really don't expect he'll have much success with his real agenda and too many people here know DJan well enough to see through the BS. Pat Schraufnagel

I don't know the particulars of your situation or complaints but that sure doesn't sound like the DJan I know from when I lived and jumped in Colorado. Based on your comments, I'm not convinced you are bringing this issue to this forum to soley get some generic advice either. USPA governance questions can easily be answered by reading the USPA regs or you could always contact headquarters or another director. What else do you have for an agenda? I talk with Colorado skydivers at least weekly...and sometimes daily. I can tell you the folks I talk with don't really seem to share your opinion of your regional director. pms

I think so...and agree with all about pro pack lending it itself to lineovers. What I guess I didn't understand..or read you to have said was something like; prior to pro pack=no lineovers, once pro packing became popular=a lot of lineovers...but 30% of them were not caused by pro packing? The last part is what seemed to make me wonder... If I read to much into your comments, my bad... pms

Dude, "No one will ever listen"? YGTBSM? Of course jump numbers don't alone define how you jump; just ask anyone that's ever seen me freefly... Anyway, recommend you lose the combatitive attitude if you normally carry it with you to load organizers... pms

Sounds like you need to move to a different DZ/load organizer...

Disagree, as many others will also I'm sure. ZP works great and will last longer than a F-111 style PC...

If I had to give the occurance of lineovers a number, I'd say that probably 60% to 70% are induced by poor packing, and around 30% random "acts of unkindness". Line overs are one of the malfunctions that do seem to be begging to occur when you pull too much of the tail around on a pro pack, or roll the tail too much (therefore bringing those center cell lines and control lines near the leading edge of the canopy. A lot of people don't realize this, but if you want to lessen the chance of this malfunction, flat pack your canopy. Before pro packing, line overs on square canopies was virtually unheard of. Beezy, I'm not sure I understand your stats in relation to your comments about the lack of line overs prior to pro packing. I watched that evolution as well and from observation believe the line over malfunction rate prior to pro packing was pretty close to zero. So, how do you now arrive at 30% random acts causing line overs? To what cause, other than random, would you attribute all these line overs (30%) that apparently didn't happen prior to pro packing. Pat

That's bullshit. As a rigger you should have a basic understanding of the chaos inherant in a parachute deployment. JP, Well, I don't really believe there's chaos inherent in parachute deployment...or there shouldn't be. Some users/packers certainly introduce chaos to the process however...some designs introduce chaos to the process as well. Anyway, I've done some test jumping and watched a lot of video of reserve and main openings. I think I do understand the "basics" of packing and parachute openings. I've also seen how shitty a job at least a few packers do when packing. There are others that are so good at packing it waters your eyes a bit. I'd simply like all of them to take responsibility for the job they do and there at least a few that are unwilling... Just my opinion of course. Pat

Well, sure it's "nice to have". Especially in the event that the alternative may be dying in some relatively rare, but certainly possible, situations. I don't really mean to be a smart-ass but the first question you posed really almost answers itself... You've taken a a step in the correct direction though..trying to get advice from someone besides your 300 jump friends that apparently aren't sure whether an AAD is a good idea. Get a modern AAD with a proven track record (read CYPRES) and no one should have concerns doing RW with you. In the circumstances indicated in your post there is no reason not to have an AAD. pms

I believe if you do a google search on "Steve Kittinger", You'll find some good references. Maybe try Joe Kittinger instead... Joseph Kittinger, Jr. is best known for his high-altitude balloon flights and parachute jumps that he made while heading the U.S. Air Force's "Project Excelsior" in the 1950s. The project's goal was to solve the problems of high-altitude bailout. It used a high-altitude balloon with an open gondola to travel to the edge of space, with the pilot parachuting from the gondola to the ground. On November 16, 1959, Kittinger piloted Excelsior I to 76,000 feet (23,165 meters) and returned to Earth by jumping, free falling, and parachuting to the desert floor in New Mexico. He followed this with the flight of Excelsior II, launched on December 11, 1959. This balloon climbed to 74,700 feet (22,769 meters) before Kittinger jumped from his gondola.

***Great advice on the being a good acker Dave, but "understand that if you pack a mal that you should pay for the repack?" Are you serious Dave? You're throwing some fabric and lines into a 120+ mile per hour wind and expecting any possible outcome to be solely the responsibility of the person who stuffed it in the bag? This assumes that we could even determine with any certainty what the specific mal was and it's cause. But as we know virtually the only mal completely pointing a finger at a packer is a misrouted bridle. Then again, it's the responsibility of every jumper to check bridle routing, pilot chute cocking, etc. OK, so your main blows up because somebody didn't unstow the slider, packer should probably be held responsible. But I think the point I'm making is clear, a packer should not feel that he/she should pay for the consequences of a mal, regardless of whether or not they are required to. Welcome to the world of being responsible for your work and actions. In most circumstances I think this is an entirely reasonable policy. As rigger we get similar legal and moral responsibility...as an instructor we get similar legal and moral responsibility...why not as a packer? If I'm packing and you have a mal...unless I can substantiate that you the jumper, with certainty, caused the mal...I should take some responsibility. Just my opinion of course... pms

In 1988 Bill Coe of performance designs designed the Crossbrace Tricell canopy called the "Excalibur". At that time Parachutes de France had released the Blue Trac, the first ZP Elliptical canopy available on the market. These were the most significant steps in parachute design in a long time and started a whole new addiction called, "swooping". You are kidding right? No complaints or criticism of of NZ Aerosports canopies from me. Yet you seem to have missed a bit of reality in your haste to send out this lengthy advertisement... Are you serious? If so, I hope I can unload all these soon to be outdated and useless PD and Precision canopies I'm currently using... pms

I guess I was not clear enough. The idea is to have a harness-hold level one type jump for the first few freefalls. Before that would be a fairly lengthy period of static line jumping with tons of canopy flight TLO's to earn their right to be cleared for freefall. Obviously the students will have to satisfy exit requirements, but the goal would be to get used to flying the parachute before doing any freefall, then havng the assistance of freefall jumpmasters for the first few delay jumps. *** Brian, The ideas you are suggesting will work in my opinion and you've obviously given this some thought. The part I'm not getting is why we can't teach the same canopy control intensive type course in conjunction with AFF, tandem, SL/IAD or a hybrid type program. I learned to fly an airplane, stall, slow flight and bunch of other stuff at the same time I was learning to land it. It's possible to do the same with skydiving... pms

Check out Duren near Saar-Louis. I jumped there on occassion when living in Germany and thought it was a great DZ. Bruchsal and Schweighofen are fairly close to Ramstein also. Elsenborn or Spa, both just across the Belgian border, are great places also though a bit farther drive. pms

From your comments it appears the goal really should be to safely deconflict traffic in the landing area. That can be done a number of ways but things that come to mind; - everyone flying a recognizable traffic pattern - everyone using the same pattern and pattern entry or else landing at an alternate site - not spiraling or otherwise flying your canopy like a buffoon in the pattern (pattern discipline) - separate landing areas for different types of landing activity (swoop, students, standard pattern, etc...) - established landing direction for light/no winds...everyone lands in the ssame direction Flying an airplane at an uncontrolled airfield is a much different experience than flying your canopy usually. Pilots are used to the idea of preditcable patterns and most folks following established procedures. We would probably benefit from the same idea but on any given weekend you'll see people do really crazy stuff under canopy; spiral through traffic, landing the opposite direction of other canopys, complete disregard for pattern, yaddi yaddi... pms

I'm going to pass on stepping outside naked. It's nowhere near 30F here, but I don't want to take the chance. I'm somewhat convinced you're hiding in the bushes, waiting to push me into the pool. Or maybe you'll wait until I step out in 7 layers of cotton. That's certain to kill me. *** Outside and naked has it's moments though so don't pass too quickly under the right circumstances... Meanwhile, the pool is frozen and you are more likely to find me in the bar rather than hiding in a bush. Especially if it's cold enough to wear hydroponic, err...you know whatever the word I mean...clothing. Blues! pms

...but is very important is to not, under any circumstances, wear cotton... ...The fact is, cotton will do nothing to help you and can/will only make you colder...*** Okay...I'm sure you are knowlegable and sincere...probably good advice, generally speaking, for cold weather. Try this test though; go outside for 10 minutes butt naked when the temparature is sub 30F. After warming up indoors...go outside again wearing several layers of good cotton clothing. Then, report back to us which circumstances you thought felt colder. I'm just guessing here but I bet the cotton wins out for warmth. Anyway, the "wear cotton and you will die" tone of the original message struck me as a bit hysterical, especially having been on night, naked, winter jumps in places like Montana. It's possible I've forgotten how much it sucks to be cold, having jumped only in California in recent months however. Cheers! pms pms

Hey, all. Something that I haven't seen mentioned but is very important is to not, under any circumstances, wear cotton. The problem with cotton is that it is hydrophylic, absorbing every bit of moisture and trapping it right where it doesn't need to be, next to your skin, robbing you of body heat. You can probably guess that layering with cotton doesn't do anything to help. Synthetics (polypropilene, capilene, etc.), on the other hand, are hydrophobic and do their best to wick this moisture away from your body. This helps to keep you warm by keeping you dry and aids in the evaporation of this moisture by spreading it out rather than soaking it up. If you don't like the feel of polypro next to your skin, DON'T put a cotton shirt on under it. You'll defeat the purpose of the synthetic layer and just stay cold, miserable and probably bitter. In this case, your best bet is to spring for the nicer (pricier) stuff, like Patagonia's Capilene. It's more expensive, but the stuff lasts for years. When it comes to wind-proof/resistant garments, make sure you choose something that's also breathable. No sense in having an impermeable layer to stop the evaporation of all that moisture that the synthetics are wicking away from your body. Cheers and have a warm winter, -C. *** YGTBSM? You are in the elements for all of 5-6 minutes at the most on a typical jump...longer for CRW or high opening swoop I suppose...but really... Hydrophylic? Hydrophobic? What is that? Are you planning to trek across Antarctica or climb McKinley? I've lived and jumped in Wisconsin, Colorado, Montana, Nebraska, Korea, Germany, etc, and done a lot of winter jumping. Dress warm in whatever reasonable clothing you have...can still see/find your hanldes. Go for the hydrophobic (whatever)? stuff if you can but it's not required. Wearing cotton would be the least of my concerns... Many jumpsuits were made of cotton in the past and we still survived. Make good decisions about when it's to friggin cold to jump. i.e. I can't feel my fingers. Go to the bar instead in that case. pms

in France, only a small percentage of skydivers own their personal rig. it s like a dream hardly attainable to own one. rigs are so expensive *** I've only jumped at 4 drop zones in France and my perception was that most experienced skydivers I knew or jumped with did have their own gear. I never asked to see sales receipts though... Seemed like PdF and other manufacturers were marketing and selling so I assumed it worked similar to in the US. I priced a Springo, Atom and BT Pros for a couple of folks as well. Prices were not cheap but also not remarkably more expensive than typical US retail prices for gear. Of course I was exempt from VAT in Germany so that saved 18% or so there. pms

question on education in our sport. BUT THE ADVANTAGE of the PAC is that the progression is adapted on the progress of the student.*** The French have good student programs and I've seen PAC while jumping at Strasbourg, Pujaut, Gap and Cannet des Maures. There are many very talented and innovative PAC instructors and they've got a great program. With that said, AFF can be and is adapted to the progress of the student or the needs/desires of a particular DZ routinely, just as well as PAC. There are as many innovative AFF and hybrid type programs that are just as successful. Early efforts in this area were innovated by people like Roger Nelson and Jeff & Marty Jones, almost 20 years ago. While the traditional AFF program was taught as 7 levels many drop zones modified that extensively...the progress continues. pms

You missed the most important issue of the sport Altitude awareness. *** Well, maybe not...I usually consider being able to walk off the DZ uninjured the most important "issue" for most jumps. That's just my way of setting priorities though... Still, I understand your point and don't really disagree with the philosophy. pms

Might try reading the Cypres manual/instructions sometime. Just a thought... pms

anyone know any info on this release system??? is it the "strapwell" i've heard abut before??? *** No, it's the chrysalis. To my knowledge it was only used on the Northern Lite for a few years as an alternative to the 3 ring...late 80s? Not a strapwell, wrap of death, R&J, or other as suggested. Chrysalis seemed to have worked well and some that used it, swore by it. Never caught on and, from what I was told at the time, expensive to manufacture and required very precise tolerances. I would stick with a rig that is more standard to what you see i common use today. Easier and probably less expensive to maintain. Good luck trying to find anyone knowledgeable on that release system except for a relatively small and geographically specific region (NW U.S). pms

Having lived and jumped and Europe, my experience is that it's easier to go along with the local rules...even if it costs a little bit of cash. 140Euros really isn't that dramatic. If you can't live with the rules, don't jump. Or, as is always an alternative, don't get caught... pms

we lack a better method of assuring safe equipment. *** Over the years I've seen plenty of TSO'd gear that is best described as "death on a ripcord"... I'm not saying the TSO testing and QC process is bad...it doesn't assure we've got safe equipment though. pms