pajarito

Not necessarily but God does use events of this nature to break pride, soften the heart, and, hopefully, bring souls back to Him. Our physical self is as unimportant as an old pair of socks. Out eternal soul is what matters. Molding the person, created in God’s image, so that he/she is more and more like Christ is sometimes a very painful experience. For some more than others. The reason why perceived “devout” people have to suffer may be to win others to Christ as well. I’m not privy to all the reasons for what God does or let’s happen. When my Grandfather died it broke me to pieces, began my search, and eventually let me to Christ. How do you know that, by Alan dying, it doesn’t have something to do with his wife or son doing the same? You just don’t know. God did work it out and will see it through. My faith goes beyond dying. This life is just the first step. It was Alan’s time in God’s plan to go. He is much better of than we are. Deep down, I know it to be true. 7 years ago, I thought exactly like you do. I do accept that there are scary realities to life and death, and I do live in the real world. Your hostility has blinded you. You can’t see for all the weeds in front of your face. His wife may have indeed questioned her belief as a result of this. This could lead to strengthening her beliefs as well.

You're referencing Homer Simpson to back your statements. That's weak...

Boy, talk about arrogance! You're "sorry she feels that way?" Rose, you might as well read that to mean: "Rose, too bad you're wrong in your beliefs and you're going to hell for not believing in my bible and my religion and my god and my jesus. Oh, the poor misguided nonbelievers." The ultimate in condescension. Unreal how pajarito does not see it. - Wasn’t meant to be. I agreed that we disagree and that I respect her point of view. I have no problem with someone who “sincerely” makes the effort, explores a topic, and comes to a different conclusion.

I am so tempted to not respond to this because you haven’t even attempted, by your admission, to have read anything from the text in question. Yet, you fully reject it outright based on opinions that you’ve heard. Now, that’s taking something (or nothing, rather) on faith. I don’t get the impression that you’re approaching these questions with sincerity and, therefore, I’m probably wasting my time with you. For the benefit of others, however, here goes… Of course, there was incest in the beginning in order for the human race to propagate. Children would have had to marry relatives in order to produce more children. At the time of Adam & Eve, however, the genetic line was pure (i.e. “brand new”). It wasn’t until later, at the time of Moses, when incest was forbidden. It wasn’t a problem then, but it is now. Multiple witnesses who all corroborate the story. Fulfilled prophesy. Miracles. Torture, crucifixion, death, and resurrection of the key figure (Jesus). Torture, mostly crucifixion and death of the one’s closest to the key figure (Disciples) who refused to deny him even to the extent of losing their lives. You don’t have those kinds of credentials or backing. Maybe for you…but not for all. The evidence shows that Jesus was not insane, was trustworthy, and was brutally tortured and killed for what he said and wouldn’t renounce (i.e. The Passion of the Christ).

I wish we could all discuss these topics seriously but I’ll play along. So, our standard for success should be based on the failures of some. In an ideal world, most of these abnormalities wouldn’t exist. But, since we don’t live in the town called “perfect”, we have to set standards for best practice. So, you’re saying that there are no adult US Citizens who believe that they should be allowed to marry into an incestuous relationship? So, your partner must be able to hold a job, provide income, and insurance in order for you to marry them? As for the horse thing….I’m speechless at your response.

I do not want the state having anything to do with my family life. The state can't even balance it's own budget. It has no place interfering in my (or any one else's) family life. Illogical comparison and has no pertinence.

This is a fundamental idea which is demonstrated by our laws of marriage for most states and their support for it. The standard has also been demonstrated by every long-standing successful nation in recorded history. It has nothing to do with a person’s right to do whatever he/she wants to do as long as it doesn’t harm someone else.

I guess I’m just more of an “action guy” and am not willing to sit idly by and not seek the truth. My search is also much focused and not arbitrary. Panic comes mostly from fear of the unknown. Although I don’t understand it all, my God has demonstrated his love for me and has promised my future. I trust him; therefore, I am not afraid.

In reference to my comment, “I agree. It is beyond my human comprehension also”, God loves you more than you can possibly fathom. That’s different from what you’re inferring from my statement. You just took what I said as blanket proof that everything I’ve presented thus far is a result of “blind faith.” Blind faith would be belief without evidence. In contrast to your last statement, I am “opening” my eyes to that which I don’t understand.”

It’s just as logical as for someone to not become a Christian, just in case there isn’t a God and you want to have as much selfish fulfillment as possible while you’re here. There are two basic choices in this case. Let’s read up on Pascal’s Wager: http://www.thewhyman.jesusanswers.com/whats_new.html

If you "honestly" examine yourself inside, you’ll find it to be true.

My kids go to a Christian private school. They teach non-denominational Bible studies as well as incorporate prayer in school. They learn logic and critical thinking as well. They score much higher than the national average and I doubt that Catholic averages are much different. I don’t think that’s because of the religious aspect, however. I think that’s because they set a higher standard, give more personal attention, and expect results. I’m sure Catholic students are very smart and I’m sure some dare to question their faith. You infer that, if smart enough, they’ll usually “dare to question” more often and come to a conclusion of rejection. I disagree. To my knowledge, there are not a high percentage of the kids at the private school my kids go to who eventually reject the faith. Many come to know Christ and accept him as their lord and savior. I dared to question for a very long time and came to a different conclusion. I don’t think you’re smarter than me just because you had a Catholic upbringing. I could be wrong, however. If you are so smart that they have to wheel your brain in on a cart, I apologize and stand corrected. When examined “in detail”, however, your accusations become extremely unlikely. This is a very detailed study. Long but interesting. http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html This is another example of your superior Catholic trained logic and intellect, right? (sarcasm) Hence, the element of faith, I guess. For some, no amount of evidence will be enough. I didn’t actually see Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon and that is one of the most incredible events to me. My Mother set me in front of the TV when I was 3 months old just so I could say I did but I really did not. Some say it didn’t happen. Others were actually there on the moon with him, however, and they say he did. Many more witnessed the events almost live on TV and heard what happened on the radio. I didn’t actually see it happen but there is enough evidence for me to believe that it did. The real proof is with the witnesses. There were actually people there who saw it happen and verified that it did in fact happen with each other. I’d say the resurrection was the most remarkable claim in the Bible on which the entire Christian religion stands. Without the resurrection of Christ, Christianity falls. I said that those groups which take Biblical quotations out of context to make it say what they want and not what the text was meant to convey are wrong. That’s different from someone interpreting a passage somewhat different from another person. Jay

A very close friend of mine (who is my Dad’s age) served as a Green Beret in SOG during the Vietnam War. I also served with him much later for a short period of time. He’s always been a very close friend of the family as well as a fellow soldier who I would step out in front of a truck for. He came back from Vietnam almost like an animal. He was a very high-strung and intense individual. It’s hard to describe him in words. He had a skydiving accident at the WFC in Quincy in 95. He had a compound fracture of a bone in his leg which stuck in the mud. They put it back together but infection set in and the bone at the break became necrotic. They had to go back in, cut off part of the bone (making him shorter), and kept him in a HALO brace for I can’t remember how long. Seemed like years. They kept the bone apart and it had to gradually grow back together. He also had a big rod stuck through his bone to keep it straight. He went from being one of the most outgoing persons I knew to being wheelchair bound, depressed, and miserable. He lost his athleticism and most of his identity really. Years later, he had the rod taken out of his bone which was voluntary and not necessary. It was just giving him some pain that he wanted to get rid of. Taking the rod out opened a pathway for more infection and he got really sick. It took him a very long time to recover from that. Many years after the accident and I don’t know how many operations later, he has mellowed out considerably, is a much better Dad to his kids, and appreciates more of what’s important in life. Granted that this is not a tragic story of a mother drowning her kids but I wanted to make a point with a personal experience of mine. Sometimes God uses bad things that happen to teach us humility, love, sacrifice, and to bring peace. The purpose may be to bring those things to others who are involved as well. There is always a purpose, though. Even if we can’t see it. Like I’ve said before to others, I respect your beliefs. I don’t believe in turning someone away just because they might be homosexual. Homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin. However, if that person continues to openly live in that lifestyle and, therefore, in sin, he/she should be instructed that what they’re doing is wrong by fellow believers and the church, if necessary. If they continue to live in sin, it is right to turn them away. That can be backed up biblically. I also do not believe that a person who is openly living as a homosexual can be effective in a position of authority in the church. Therefore, I do not believe that he/she should be allowed to hold a position of authority in the church. Again, that goes for anyone openly living in a sinful lifestyle (i.e. iv drug user) and not just homosexuals.

I don’t know what to say to that other than the statement sounds like someone on a raft drifting in the middle of the ocean with no idea where he is or where he’s going. I accept that you don’t agree and respect your opinion. Good luck!

No one is saying what homosexuals can and can’t do with their partners just like no one is saying that my wife and I can only have 2 children. Marriage, however, is its own entity and it exists as the union of one man and one woman for the purpose of procreation, rearing children, companionship, and pleasure. Homosexual couples are illegitimate in that context. If you’re a proponent of blurring the definition of marriage and allowing same-sex couples, how would you feel about awarding the same to polygamists, incestuous couples, or even a man who wanted to marry his horse? Would they be “discriminated” against for the same reasons? They wouldn’t be hurting anybody else and, according to you and others, it wouldn’t affect my heterosexual marriage in the slightest. I’m sure they also “just want to be left alone to live their lives, any way they choose, in the same way” I do. I’m sure “they become upset when you try to rip apart their marriages, or deny them the same rights” I have as a married person also. You can’t say that there aren’t people like that out there.

Define tragedies. Bad things that people do or natural disasters. Sounds like you haven’t absorbed everything that’s involved. It’s not as simple as you make it out to be. I respect anyone that can do that far more than a man of faith who spends considerable efforts attacking those outside their faith. And if the good book helps you in this life quest, more power to you. I don’t mean to “attack” anyone. Sorry if you took it that way.

I'm truly sorry you feel that way but I respect your beliefs. It sounds like you've thought it through.

That might mean something if it was an “equal right” issue. Same-sex couples are not legitimate in the context of marriage and therefore would not be entitled to the same rights/privileges that are awarded to legitimate married couples. Thanks for the definition. I was really confused on the whole line-spacing – bullet issue concerning lists, their purpose, and when each would be appropriate to use.

The state has an obligation to protect and endorse the family, which is rooted in marriage. It is the foundational institution of our culture and its stability is necessary for our culture to be healthy and flourish. The government endorses and promotes it by giving benefits and entitlements to those who can legitimately enter into such a union. They are right in doing so and they are also right in denying it to those who cannot. It is the government’s responsibility. Homosexual couples are a completely different animal than heterosexual couples. It may be all about benefits to some but that doesn’t necessitate change.

It is a shame. But we are all human and make mistakes. I'm quite sure the US and Great Britain will persevere and bring themselves out of the hole....eventually. This one will hurt a lot, though, and may take a long time to recover. It really needs to be demonstrated to the world that this kind of thing will not be tolerated by us. Even if others do much worse. We're better than that.

Careful...you might get labeled something if you agree with me too much. What would people think?

It's pointless, though, because the argument isn't all about benefits. The homosexual movement would like to make it seem so and make it into a "discrimination" issue but it's just not.

Because an institution with such importance and impact on the basis of society needs to be defined in order to have purpose, meaning, and effectiveness. It doesn’t need to be some arbitrary loosely described union encompassing all. What then would be the reason why you couldn’t marry your dog, have 10 wives, or marry your daughter? The purpose of defining marriage as between one man and one woman is not to attempt to curve anyone’s homosexual lifestyle. You come to that conclusion yourself?

Then it was their "effect" and not yours.

That’s ludicrous Billvon. There are idiots on both sides of the fence. Are you really going to start quoting extremists in order to defend your position? Your examples are in no way representative of the majority who oppose same-sex marriage. I personally “fear” for my society due to the moral decline that it’s going through and the implications that will have in the future. I don’t “fear” homosexuals or their lifestyle. Like I said, what they do is their own business. Just like what I do is my own business.