Ron

Well I started this whole thing (Geeze am I sorry)... And I got an answer from the S&TA at Z-hills...Of course he yelled it at me and called me ingnorant for not understanding how clear it was????? Even though he had never told it to me before???? Any way, he told me that they had tried the "Flat goes first" exit order at Zhills for 2 weeks, and it was unsafe. Now if he feels like posting his argument here.....I'll let him do it. (it will miss some of the VOLUME he gave it to me with, but it does have some merit) He is not a dumb guy, and I do respect his opinion, if not his approach to giving it. I did have another talk with Paul at the DZ bar....He was much more easy to talk to, and he agreed with Pips point of view.... Two guys I respect, both with more jumps than me, and both with more at Z-Hills than me, both like this exit order. I am not going to argue it with them, although I will gladly disscuss it with them some more. And I would like to go on the record to say that I have never had a problem like this at Zhill's (or any other DZ for that matter) with exit seperation. Freefliers can go first with a degree of saftey....It can, and does cause at times extra passes. But as Paul pointed out "It's not your fuel being used, and its worth it to be safe". He did point out some very good points, and I am glad we had that disscusion. Anyhow....Z-Hills is a great place, and like I said even though it is not the "standard norm" other than extra passes I have never seen a problem with freefliers first. In theory it can be bad, but I personaly have never had a problem with it. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I never posted the whole training program... I DON'T think this is the best way, but it is good for a Oh, shit! Jump#1. Tandem with Fast Eddie at WTS. Jumps 2,3,4,5. IAD. #6. 1 real S/L. #7. Hop n Pop #8. 2way from 7,500 #9. 8way. (Off student status.) Jump #13 my own gear with out RSL or AAD. Told ya, Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, you seem like Tandem Progression... Tandem progression is a very interesting program.... I have seen several places that REQUIRE you to do at least one tandem before AFF....I kind of like the idea. Did your Tandems have levels? I think the perfect program would be maybe 2 Tandem's. On each the student pulls. 3 IAD's or S/L's. To work on just getting something out, and then a real focus on canopy control, and spotting. 1 Hop n pop. To instill massive confidence, and to be a true LOW solo. Then AFF levels 4,5,6,7. To work on body position, and basic RW skills. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

yeah thanks its in Spotting 5-7. I was looking at the wrong section.... It does say to have Slow then Fast..... Like I said before I have heard several reasons to do it this way, and not one good reason to do it the other. But it will not change until the DZO, and S&TA change... So until then I will take go arounds if I must. It just seems strange to go against what 90% of the community says is safe, and with out a good reason. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And for canopy size issue....you have a Nitron 120...I have a Stiletto 107 and a Velocity 96.... Steve J has a V90, Box has a V84....So if we are doing a 3 way we should get out before you, Mr Berry, and Pip right? What if Steve, Box, me, and say Oren with his "big" 136 go out with Annie (136) and Laura (135) together? It is an issue of the freefall drift....Zhills is plenty big for a 100 way to land safe....an otter load would be no problem. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I did ask, and I got really bad answers. And if they go out first, then they start at the begining of the exit window....If they go after the headdowns then the time they take to climb out is wasted time....Several people smarter than me have said that putting flat first INCREASES the saftey factor....and that putting the Headdown first DECREASES it.....Whats wrong with being more safe? I doubt this....Flat has been around A LOT longer. And most of the people I jump with (Flat) have small canopies. Now I don't fly headdown, but I do 4way....and when I am really turning points I will be the first to tell you that I can't skydive at that speed, and remember the line of flight....I am betting that serious headdown loads can't either. Why only with high winds????? What is the majic windspeed? If it is safer to do it with flat first, and even more safe to do it when the winds are high, why ever change it? Also like I said several people WAY smarter than me say its better (Brian Burke, Kallend, Windsor...ect) and the BSR's state to put the Slower falling groups first. (Section 5-7 in spotting) So eveyone else is wrong? And no one has yet to give me a good solid answer. Yes, it can be done headdown first....All I am saying is it is not as effective with the plane having to take go arounds, or as safe as putting Flat out first. So why do it? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There are several other options to a big shinny building. For one a traveling exibit has been mentioned. At much less the cost, and it could be at major events, and in places like state fairs,and even in Malls. I doubt I would ever go to see this place, and skydiving is a LARGE part of my life (I live on a DZ, and have a 4way team). I further doubt that it will be able to support itself....I just don't see the interest being there. There are only 35,000 USPA members....a lot more than that (almost 4 times) make a first jump a year......That is still not a large enough population to make this work. Plus I can't see any "return value". Why would you do it more than once? Skydiving is not a large sport....We don't have enough people to pull this off. Ron I doubt "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah, I have almost 1000 jumps on a light loaded canopies Raven II, Sharpchutters, and Startrac I's. ALL under 1 to 1 (more like .75 to 1) Around 1500 jumps on everything from Extreme 69's to Stiletto 120's. (from 2.6 to 1, to 1.5 to 1). Both types of canopies fly just like they are designed to fly. You can't really swoop a StarTrac, and you probley can't stomp a good score with a Velocity 96. But that does not make a large (light loaded) canopy unsafe. It is statments like this that get people hurt. "You need to really load a canopy to be safe"... And they are wrong. Just because you could not fly a canopy at a light wingload means just that...YOU could not fly it. There is nothing wrong with the wing...its the pilot. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There was a Fatality this year where a guy with a Xaos 68 at a 2.1 to 1. in VA. had this highly wingloaded canopy collapse. Description: At about 50', this jumper executed a small turn into the wind, whish was blowing at 10mph, with gusts to 16mph. At this point, one side of his canopy collapsed -- the canopy then went into line twists and started to spin. The canopy was almost completely collapsed when he impacted the paved taxiway shortly thereafter. He was jumping a Xoas21 68 ft^2, loaded at approximately 2.1 lb/ft^2. So any wing can re-pack itself. And Rhino....just because its easier for you to land a higher loaded canopy....I am betting it is more a problem with the pilot, not the canopy....You like, and maybe that style of flying fits you, but to say that a low wingloaded canopy is "unstable" or hard to control is wrong.... I know tons of people that can hit a 3 cm (about the size of a quarter) target under big canopies....I bet there are very few that can do that under a Velocity. It is an issue of talent and skill, not wing.... Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Velocity yes....And to be honest I was suprised. I think PhreeZone hit it on the head about it being a performace issue, not a safety issue. But the Vengence did not have a Minumum, only Varies With Landing Conditions.....And even the Specter said that...I think all of them say that..... Any way ever seen a 120# under a Velocity 120???? I never have. And since I am fat, and they don't make a 190, I guess I'll never know how it would fly. Any way....its a mute point. I would rather have someone underloaded than overloaded. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes I am taling about how some people think that underloading a canopy is dangerous.....It's not. Overloading is. At a really light wingload, winds become a larger factor. I can only think of one canopy that had minimum wingloads (the NOVA, and I am not going down that path). You can kill yourself under ANY wingload. A higher wingload does make it easier. Being stupid makes it even more so. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK, I have to disagree here as well. A loading under a 1.1 is not dangerous....I have almost 1,000 jumps on 7 cells with less than a 1 to 1 wingload. The danger is someone under ANY wingload that lets the canopy fly them insted of them flying the canopy. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He has a good point. The Rec used to be a good source of info....now all it seems you can learn is who is doing which sheep. Way to much noise. I like the moderators here...I think the Rec could use them. As it is I only look at the Rec for a few things, and I never post there anymore...It is a waste of time unless you care about someone hijacking your thread and somehow always comming back to sheep. I can't kill file fast enough. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is about the closest GOOD reason I have heard. But if they could also go last, and pull high and they could have the wind help them back insted of fighting upwind. As for Ray... He points out that the 4way team should exit first...and they do at DeLand. Unless there is a gigantic formation on the plane. We have gotten out after a few 16 ways at DeLand. Because they are going to take even more time to climb out then even a 4way team. And if they are the only two groups and the large way leaves before the midpoint of the exit window...the 4way will still be fine. The opposite may not be true. He has a very good point about canopy size. But even on the same group sizes will vary. We had 2 on 96 Velocities, two under 120 Stilettos...and our camera guy (Ray) would have a ST107, or a V96 as well. I have seen one guy in the group with a WAY sub 100, and a guy with a 150 on the same jump. If you want a tiny canopy (and I do)....You need to be able to fly it in traffic. And it would be hard to establish an exit order based on canopies. I have Emailed USPA about this....I am waiting to see what they say. I would bet that they don't do anything about it, and insted differ it to local S&TA's.... Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He tells you to change it if you don't like it.... He tries not to get involved if he does not have to. Plus he has the S&TA telling him it is better. I still think the USPA should make a BSR on exit order. It is a safety issue. Now to be honest, it is more a efficency issue since we have to take a go around more than needed. I will not exit with a bad spot just to save the DZ money. Oh well, it is the way it is, and it will not change in the current climate....and so far we have only had bad spots, and no accidents. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The S&TA is Pip Redvers...he is a freeflyer. He likes getting out first. The real big pain in the ass is the freeflyers like to get out over the top even on no wind days....They say they don't want to get out downwind and have to fly a canopy to the DZ with people opening around them. So what that does is make me almost always take a go around.....I don't mind, but it is bad to have to have 2 passes when it would not be needed if they just got the fuck out the door. Plus the spot gets screwed when you have a lot of small headdown groups eat up a lot of the jumprun, then a large RW group starts to climb out, and the climb out time is in the middle of the exit window....the climb out, and the count is unusable exit time that is wasted.... As an organizer, if I know my climb out is going to take along time, I start the climb out sooner, so we leave at the begining of the exit, not start at the window....this help eliminate extra passes.... But a Zhills, we climb out when we can, and if it looks like we will not have a good spot, I go around....wasted loads and fuel. Oh well, maybe USPA should put an exit order BSR....hell it is there job to do things like this. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know about Johns website...and I agree with it. I don't think Freeflyers should go first. I think flat should....And I have several reasons.... I am posting this to try and see if one fucking person can give me a good reason to put Freeflyers first.. It won't change a thing here I ask, and I get all kinds of stupid answers..... Including (We all have small canopies)????? It is a matter of they WANT to and they do....unless its windy or cold.... But just wanted to know. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

why does it matter the size of the group? It is a fallrate/drift issue. And I thought Mike put the freaks out last. Ron PS. Tell Chris I said Hi. I have not seen you since I moved to FL...I don't think you were jumping yet. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have no idea why, but Headdown goes first at Zhills. Not taking into account pull altitudes: I think it should be flat groups largest to smallest. Then headdown/sitfly groups largest to smallest. Students and high pullers out last. I think this way due to freefall drift issues. Flat groups drift more than headdown groups, this has the potential to cause a flat group to drift over a Headdown group. Also most headdown groups break off higher, and pull higher than most flat groups. A back sliding flat person will not travel as far as a bad headdown flyer. Thoughts? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

At your DZ, who goes first? Why? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Don't skip the 170. Get one from PD for two weeks and put some jumps on it. You might not notice a large difference between the 190 and the 170.....Speed is relative. A 150 is a dog to me, might be way to fast for you. You need to be comfertable under a canopy to really learn it. I know a girl who bought a small canopy and is afraid to jump it. Her confidence is shot, and she almost hates to jump. I know TONS of people who buy a small canopy thinking its cool, and never really learn to fly it...they are too busy saving their lives on each landing to play with it. Get the 170 Demo, and try to jump it on a no/low wind day. It will then be the fastest it will ever be (unless you downwind it). If it feels fine to you, get a 150 Demo, and repeat this process. You will know what canopy is the right size for you, just don't skip any sizes on the way down....Every canopy can teach you something. Most people really don't know the canopy they have before they get something else. The miss out on several valuble lessions. If you fly on the edge (or past) your comfort level, you will not learn anything other than how not to get hurt. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Liz, you have a good attitude about this. If it takes an extra 100 jumps, 1,000 jumps, or 10,000 jumps. This is not a race. There is no prize for doing things sooner than others. I have almost 10 years,and 2,500 jumps. 400 or so on Accuracy gear 120 or so CRW over 1600 on Stiletto's, Velocitys, FX's, Jedei's..ect. 370 on a Raven II. at a .77 to 1 (that was a hot shit canopy where I was jumping at the time). I continue to learn on every jump. If I had it all down, and knew it all...I'd quit. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Liz listen to what these people have to say.... Learn to do CRW...It will teach you loads about your canopy.(any swooper who has not done any CRW, give it a try, you will be amazed). Learn on a big canopy....you don't need a small or high performance wing to learn to swoop....You will not get as much distance out of a Tri160 than say a ST160. but the extra material will keep things slow for now, and give you an extra saftey margin. I can out swoop a lot of people with a TRI when they are on a Stiletto....It's the pilot, not the wing. I can do a good swoop on a TRI, they dig out the Stiletto to keep in one piece and they loose. Yes, if they have a clue they will beat me, but thats why I have a V96 and ST107 as well. The biggest thing for me to tell you is don't rush yourself. You said you were conservative, thats good. It will keep you alive. Can you land 100% of the time standing? Can you land in the peas 10 out of 10 times. (someone will say that you can't alwasy do that due to traffic, but watching for traffic is part of learning to swoop.) If not....don't push it till you can. If so, learn the "flat" turns. These will save your ass. Learn to handle the speed of a swoop by using both front risers in a straight in approach before you add the danger of speed, and an un-level wing. When you do start to do turns start with slow carving turns 45,90,180. Don't move to the next increase until you can land 100% in the peas, and on your feet. Most will tell you that this is way to long to wait. Well the largest segment of our group that has killed themselves under canopy this past year had 300 jumps and a 1.5 wingload. In fact only one person in the low turn deaths had over 600 jumps. Take your time and be safe. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK DIVEOUT is the person I am using as an example. He got to small of a canopy, with too little experiance. He know KNOWS it....He didn't then. Just like most of us, we think we know everything, until we move on, and look back a realize we didn't know shit. What ever anyone says...jump #'s and time in sport do matter. Ask anyone with over a thousand jumps. Its only the new people who are trying to justify what they are doing that say jumps don't matter. If you have 100,200,300, ect jumps that is only 100,200 or 300 times that you have landed a parachute..there is training that can help you progress, but only experiance will really work. Experiance plus knowlege is the best route. But knowledge is nothing without the experiance, and the practice of actually doing it. As I always say "you can jump a smaller canopy if you live through the one you have now". Also, don't be afraid to talk to an S&TA, and have a reckless person grounded. While he is sitting on the ground teach him. If he won't lisen, give him directions to leave the DZ. Tell him if he wants to come back, he is welcome. But he will sit in a canopy control class, and if he starts acting up, he will be told to leave again. This way he learns, or kills himself at some other DZ. Don't be afraid....you are trying to save him from pain or DEATH. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

IAF...Tandem progression....same thing "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334