Ron

No, we just don't buy into the same principals you do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Before reserves were required people still jumped. I can't fiqure out how you and others can't see the clear FACTS that there are people who use an AAD to do more dangerous stuff. There is no shift. If a person uses an AAD to go on more dangerous dives...No matter what skill level you want to put in there, it is about them doing something with an AAD that they would not do without it...Skill has nothing to do with it. Good why depend on an AAD? Not a polite fuckoff...Simple statement that shows the same attitude in a different area. A dangerous situation (driving drunk, a dive that you think is too dangerous without an AAD) and once you add a device (Airbag, or AAD) you now accept the dangers. Both driving drunk and dives you think are too dangeorus are situations....In one you think its OK (An AAD just to go on a dangerous jump) the other you don't (Driving drunk cause you have airbags). See I don't...Safe is AVOIDING dangerous situations. An AAD will increase the chances of survival, but that does not make you safer. Show me one post where I argue AGAINST THEM? Go ahead time after time you say things then fail to follow through. Go ahead. Find it. For the last time...Saftey is not doing stupid stuff, not adding an AAD and then doing what you want. EDIT: I'm done with this....It is quite clear that if the only factor that makes it OK for you to jump is the AAD, you are in fact dependant. I see no need to continue this...If you feel like asking me a question...Think about the question, then read all these posts again...I can bet it has been answered atleast once before. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Does Kallend see 10way as too dangerous without an AAD? Yes, or No? If Yes, then he is in fact using the AAD as an excuse to take bigger risks than he would be willing to take without them. If you said no, then you need to re-read his posts. If the only difference between "Go" and No-Go" is the AAD...How can you say he is no using it as THE reason he does the jump? EDIT: I'm done with this....It is quite clear that if the only factor that makes it OK for you to jump is the AAD, you are in fact dependant. I see no need to continue this...If you feel like asking me a question...Think about the question, then read all these posts again...I can bet it has been answered atleast once before. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The majority of the profit from sales at Wal-Mart stay in the US. Two employees is not "Wal-Mart". Holding Wal-Mart responsible for two dumbasses would be like thinking the US is full of asswhipes based on Bush or Clinton alone. (Pick one) That is one of the things...People jump all over Wal-Mart for lets say sexual discrimination....But its due to a very small percentage of cases...The number just happens to be really large becasue of the scope of the company. I was in class the other night and this very topic came up. People jumped on the Anti-Mal-mart bandwaggon. NONE of them knew about "Acres for America", the 170 MILLION in donations (The largest of ANY company in the US/WORLD)....ect. They only knew the stuff that they heard that was bad.... I aksed the class if they knew about the company I work for...They all had. I asked them one at a time what they thought about the company..They all agreed it is a good company to work for. But we pay less per hour and give fewer hours to our part time EE's than Wal-Mart. We also have less EE's, donate less to society...blah, blah, blah. People STILL thought my company was better than Wal-Mart...even though I showed them that Wal-Mart did more. People like to hate the biggest....Its natural. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK I actually do give a shit that he feels like he has been wronged. I don't agree with him. But its not like I don't care. Other than that DM said it pretty good. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why did people loose altitude awareness? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

NASA good enough? NASA: I am focusing on the first part...likelihood that an undesirable event will occur. you are thinking only in the second. Why not focus on removing the risk/hazzard first...Then add saftey equipment? If there is no incident/acident/occurance, then no AAD would be needed. Not true...People have been killed from a collision, not just knocked out. Yes. So why do you have such a beef? All I have ever said is that if you think the risk/hazzard of a jump is too high without an AAD, then you should not do it just because you have one. That is risk management. You are thinking of only half of risk management. I am thinking of removing the possibility of an accident so that there is less danger. THEN adding an AAD so that in the event that your best thought out plans do get fucked up...you can still survive. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes. What I have said...Is not to allow yourself to do something just because you have an AAD. If that means not jumping...then so be it. You don't have to skydive. That would be like saying its OK to drive drunk since you have airbags. In both cases you will most likely be safer because the AAD and the Airbags...But that doe not make the act safe. Nor does either device reduce the chance of an accident. Never did I say to jump without an AAD. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Being knocked out is harm. It is also dangerous. Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. But even under your definition..an AAD will do NOTHING to PREVENT an accident. Avoid the dangerous situation WILL. Edit to add for you: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then you need to re-read that "The risk of ACCIDENT is the same"...and it is. Unless you can show me how an AAD can PREVENT an accident. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then YOU want them to do it...I have never said that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The if those jump are above your risk level without it...you should not do it even with the AAD. The RISK of accident is the SAME. Only the outcome *might* be different. Neither does using a saftey device to do more dangerous things. Encourouging someone, even indirectly, to use an AAD as a substitute for good judgement is irresponsible. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then you would be wrong....still. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Find out why. It is small, but growing. If a person is on dives above their skill level...I would say it poses a risk. Don't know. But ignoring it will not do anything. Not yet...But even Perris has seen the need to do something about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You said: And I agree. But it is quite the hypocrite to say that then buy a Toyota and a Honda. FWIW. I tend to avoid Wal-Mart simply because I don't like impersonal service. I do find it crazy that people bad mouth the place for a myrad of reasons (Most that do not stand to the light of day). I guess it is human nature. But I think its sad when people bad mouth the place and ignore the good things it has done. Also, I tend to agree on the hybrid issue.....I have even looked at them. The Accord Hybrid seems interesting. Its 3,290 more than the standard, but only gets 8 miles more per gallon. It could save me 6,000 in 5 years on gas..and I might qualify for the tax break... So I may be buying one. My only questions still are the dependability. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Simple, we can just raise the minumum wage to cause inflation, and increase welfare payments. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope..Ever heard "I'll be OK since I have a CYPRES?" That people over ride the best saftey device they have (Their brains) and use a supposed saftey device to do things that they would never consider without it. By going on more dangerous jumps JUST because they have an AAD they negate the positive effects of the device. An AAD does not make an accident less likely. It can only effect the OUTCOME. But it does not reduce the risks. And if a person is using an AAD as a permission slip to do more dnagerous things they are in fact being MORE dangerous since not everyone has an AAD and while Kallend may feel perfectly fine doing a 10way without an AAD, they guy he might knock out might not have one. You could say "Thats to bad for him, tough luck." But I'd rather promote saftey, not buying AAD's. My point is simple....Don't use an AAD as an excuse to do more dangerous jumps. Just becasue you may not agree does not make that any less sensible. You can do that? not even an S&TA can do that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

See how great America is? I can buy the same stuff you do for less, and you can buy the same thing for more. This I found interesting an true: I also find it funny that you claim Wal-Mart is bad since they buy from China, but you drive a Honda and a Toyota. I find it funny that you bitch about Wal-Mart and the trade imbalance, but you drive to the Mom and Pop store in your Import. In your case I don't blame you...you bought what you wanted, and I bet you bought it at the best price you could fine. But even you must admit that claiming to be against Wal-Mart for buying 70% of its goods in China while you drive a Honda quite funny. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry I took "final comment" as not needing a response. I have NO problem with jumpers that ADD an AAD as a back up and use their brains as the primary safety device...My whole issue has been the ones that use an AAD as a "permission slip" to do more dangerous stuff. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep...you are right...Damn. Time to sell. Well if you bought it in 98 when it was like 25.00 a share even todays 57.00 is still over double. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well from YOUR DZ: And Kallend has said he will not risk 10 way without a CYPRES...Both from your DZ. How about higher risk dives? Say bigways? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And the part about China can me said the same....If Wal-Mart didn't buy from China...Others would. So how much more are you willing to pay for the products? See thats the great thing...you hate Wal-Mart...You don't have to shop there. I like and invest in Wal-Mart. If you don't like Wal-Mart...I suggest you check your 401k....I almost bet you own a part of it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry you missed the "like Dell" part...I meant out of the country. How is that Wal-Marts fault? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah it is a sweat deal. You get to move lots of product, and they don't pay to store it till it sells. If I had a product and Wal-Mart would store it, promote it and sell it for me than pay me when it sells I'd be glad to do that. OH BTW some skydiving equipment sells this EXACT same way. The sky was supposed to be falling when Sears started....It was still supposed to be falling when strip malls opened....It was STILL supposed to be falling when super malls opened. ALL were said to be destroying the economy. Yet I bet you shopped at each one of them. Bollocks. Specialty stores will always exist. I can't buy a Rolex at Wal-Mart. I did see this at a Sam's club...http://www.samsclub.com/eclub/main_shopping.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&n=0&mt=a&coe=0&oidPath=0:-23542:-30402:-30450:-38295:892562&fid=1S12 But I can get it even cheaper than that. If the Jones's did a better job of running the store they would not go under. Simple fact bigger stores can have lower prices. I fly RC planes and the places the hobby shops get the planes are THE SAME places I can order direct from. I ALWAYS get a better deal from the big store AND I don't have to pay tax or shipping. But I still shop at the local hobby shops...They give me service and help. So if the small store wants to compete, they need to focus on service, and personal touches. People like to target the big guys...I bet this same shit was said of Sears, strip malls, and I can remember this crap being said about super malls. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My thougths 100%. We asked for it, now we got it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334