Ron

The students can always get the "A" somewhere else. I like the SDU program....Not sure it should be manditory IMO. And from what I gather, the post grad student can still do solos to get the "A". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, I have been asked, and nope...sorry fellas "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was doing some work at Skydive Dallas this weekend. After the weekend I was talking to Ernie the chief head honcho with a mullet. And we were talking about this very thing. He keeps fantastic records and told me that about 10% of FJC students graduate AFF. Cost was a major reason. And this is when he hit me with what Dallas is doing and frnakly it floored me. If an AFF FJC student lands and buys his next level that day....It costs only 99 bucks. I thought that was great! Then I found out that if he lands and buys his next ticket....99 bucks. A student can do levels 2-7 for 99 bucks each this way! I was shocked, the DZ loses money on levels 2,3 and only breaks even on the rest. I will be very interested to see if this increases the ratio of FJC to graduation. I am really amazed by the deal. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was not his tunnel "I". He told me he did fine and his body position was pretty good. The issue came down to him not following AFF hand signals and not checking his alti enough. His level 4 I did not due. He was supposed to do 90 degree turns, but didn't. When I asked him later when he told me he failed, he told me he was expecting the AFF "I" to rotate just like his tunnel "I" did and he would just stay pointed at him. So he expected his AFF "I" to use a tunnel teaching trick. Three things that the tunnel differed from AFF: 1. Hand signals 2. Altitude Awareness. 3. Instructor moving to get the student to turn vs the "I" staying in place. All three could be worked around or trained in the tunnel to eliminate the issues, but are examples of things that could happen. Depends on who does their tunnel. When I do tunnel with an AFF student, I treat it like an AFF jump mostly. So they use the same hand signals, alti checks...ect. My students didn't have a problem. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Does not look that good only one day with less than a 40% chance of rain. http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/tenday/GMXX0190?from=36hr_fcst10DayLink_business I would hate for the one jump rule to be used. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Just an update... I did a level 3 with a guy this weekend. He failed....But not really badly. He had about 15 min of tunnel time but the instructor did not use an AFF thought process for his time. In freefall he just didn't respond to hand signals very well.....In the tunnel I tend to just grab and move a student that needed something moved and maybe this guys Tunnel "I" did the same thing? The problem was he didn't resond to hand signals and had a dropped knee, in the tunnel you can let him go and spin hin around and correct it....Not really an approved AFF technique. Also he didn't check his alti nearly enough. But he is a trooper and repeated the level this time passing it. Level 4 with another instructor...He failed that level as well. Not bad, but when I talked to him about it later he told me he was acting like he did in the tunnel, not how he was told to act in freefall. What he did was not really important, but the fact is he reverted back to his tunnel training on the skydive, and didn't respond to the AFF hand signals... Just one recent issue. To fix that, I would recomend getting an AFF rated Tunnel "I". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Advantages: Avoid little rashes to your hands from exit. Better grip. For competition provides easy to see grips for judges. Disadvantages: Harder to feel for handles. There have been accidents where people had problems...I had a mal where I had to pull my glove off to feel for the handle....Long story, but if with the glove I could not find the handle, so I had to take the glove off to find it and pull it. For that reason, I don't wear gloves on tandems since I can't SEE the handles. I also know a fatality of a friend that the gloves played a part...He could have prevented it, but without the gloves it would have not been an issue. My thoughts, don't jump gloves until you have a good number of jumps. Even then start with the "summer weight" which are very thin. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Get used to it. This is a sport where right and wrong often depends on if you have a pulse at the end of it. There was a fatality just this mth with a reserve. You had a canopy that you made a call that you thought was landable. Why trade a controlable canopy for something that might mal and kill you? You did the right thing just like you did. Period. That does not mean that it will be the right thing next time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your actions do not show that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And your opinion that I am out to slander the convention is because my opinion is different than yours. I believe in looking for the REASONS people get hurt. That is by definition negative. You seem to want to gloss over the potential dangers. It seems we will just not agree...so maybe we should agree to just quit trying to convince the other. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I think that the convention being the biggest/longest/no locals makes it more dangerous than a local weekend boogie...You do not seem to think that, or choose to ignore it for some reason. And I think you are blindly defending the convention, ignoring that it IS different than a local boogie, held over a shorter period of time, at a regular DZ. And I don't see blind love or defense of anything being beneficial to the sport either. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The WFFC UNLIKE other boogies has *no locals* not one. Most other boogies have a large contingent of locals and preset rules. Those locals do not break those rules and many act as safety folks for the visiting jumpers...So please, do not assume I said something, or twist what I did say. I clearly did not concede any of the things you claim. A shorter time at the boogie would be safer. However, instead of making the boogie shorter, I tend to suggest that people do not do the whole boogie and arrive during the week to get acclimated in a less hectic environment. Yep everyone I know that I don't think has that ability...Of course many times I get insulted...Kinda like you did earlier. As for your other thought about me not caring for safety....Have you read any of my other posts yet? Also, about the Dallas jumper that is dangerous under canopy...Feel free to PM me his name...I bet I have talked to him once already....I have a rep as a guy that cares about safety even if you have not seen it. For example your comment from above "Would it be too unthinkable to require jumper to pass a proficiency test of canopy flight before downsizing or swooping?" Please see :http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1991585#1991585 This:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=869327#869327 And this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1472310#1472310 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And this is really funny. You are jumping all over me, and insulting me for trying to let people know of the potential dangers, yet make claims that I am not trying to promote safety. How does that work? Everything is OK except don't touch your sacred cow? If you had really ever bothered to read my posts....You would see most of them are focused on safety. And that I am big fan of personal responsibility. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Some frankly DO ignore that is more dangerous than a home DZ of even a local boogie. I just don't get how people can not understand that. 1. Its no ones home DZ. 2. It is a LONG event. 3. It is LARGE and therfore more people to make mistakes. 4. People push the envelope when at boogies more it seems I don't think the convention is evil...But the factors above do make it more dangerous than a 2 day weekend boogie at an otter DZ with over half the folks there being regulars. One of his other posts...In that post he was defending Peek. So this guy has less than 13 post and ALL are in defense of the WFFC, or one of the leads of the convention. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats kinda funny I do agree that the WFFC is smaller than it was. I will even agree that the parties are not like they were. I know this from people who did go. So the convention is SAFER than it was, but that does not mean that there are not still dangers there. This ia an example right here :"In this case.. a Guy made a Low Hook turn and died. Unfortunately, This happens at least once a month in this sport. At Home DZ`s, Competitions, Small Boogies and now it has happened at Rantoul. The sad reality is that within 30 days it is going to happen again somewhere else. The incidents forum is full of these accidents. Most say the same thing.. He wasnt a show off.. He normally didn’t do that. He was a safe swooper.. " But if he normally did not do that....Then why did he do that here, more than once according to a few reports? This is what I am getting at...I listed these things before and even stated that they apply to ALL boggies, the longer and more people there the more the danger level increases. People ignored that and thought I was just jumping on the convention...But here they are again. 1. Un-familiar area. It is a well know risk factor to jump at a different DZ that is unknown. My thoughts: No one is a local at the WFFC. It is not a DZ the other 350 days of the year, and I would not consider having been to a DZ last year as being familiar. 2. Many days...Most boogies seem to be weekend affairs. This one is 10 days. I know how I feel after several days of jumping...I KNOW my awareness level has dropped some after my 4th day. When training we often take the 4th day off due to it. At a 10 day boogie I could understand some people will be weary and tired. 3. Boogies often get people to jump outside their comfort zone. Not just here, but all boogies and even some regular DZ's all the time. Now can we agree that those three could be danger factors? Now my only point is that since the convention is so big, draws so many people, and is so long...That those factors are more in play than a 3 day boogie at ANY DZ. Or any boogie that is smaller. I am not trying to bash the convention...I am pointing out what I see to be potential danger areas. The convention has ALWAYS been controversial. Some love it, others hate it, and it has been that way for as long as I have been jumping. And I just want people to really understand that and know WHY it is not as safe. Then they can make an educated choice, not just buy into the hype from EITHER side. I know there are people that hate the convention no matter what it does, just as some blindly love it no matter what. Some people claim it is just as safe as their home DZ....That just is not true. I enjoy our talks...I agree the convention is not what it used to be no doubt, no argument. However, I still see how the danger level is higher than most other boogies, due to the things I mentioned and the overall scope of the convention. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

RON - ENOUGH! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Because there is MORE risk for a heavier a person. And their seems to be a sharp spike at around 200ish pounds. Like I said before, I can stand up a landing with a 100 pounder on the front of me and almost ignore them. But with a 240 pounder (My biggest) it took tons of work and there was increased danger to me. The 240 pounder in this case was not in more danger since he was a big meaty football player, but there was risk to me. Now a flab factory both increases risk to the TI, AND them. And for that reason, I don't take grossly over weight people. It is not worth it to me to risk my ankle, or for me to risk getting sued for them breaking theirs...If people want to tak that risk, I have no problem them getting more money for it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hey troll!!! here is a neat trick DON'T READ THEM!! I did...Tell your mom I said hi! And as for your other stuff....Not even close. I have seen death. I do everything I can to prevent it. If that means saying what I think about your "sacred place" well then thats just the way it goes. If you don't know that...Well then you clearly have either a reading problem...Or you just are as dense as you are a troll

You out this weekend? I am jumping OC with Antons group till Rick gets there....Then coaching and maybe an AFF or two. Also, the red head may not be coming out...so we can do something after day close maybe....I'd ask ya to jump, but I don't wanna be cruel..... Wanna make a jump....Ok I'm cruel. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Worth repeating. Now a question...would this have happend at your home DZ? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was asking so I could see if they knew about the extra risk to the TI. It is pretty clear to me that a bigger passenger is a bigger risk to the TI, but I am a TI, so I have some insite. I was asking if they had that same exp, or how they gained their view. I agree as well...If there is extra risk to the student...I don't take them. But I am pretty famous for not taking out of shape fat bodies since I don't have to accept that extra risk. And there is an extra risk to heavier students.... I know a DZM that would disagree with you. They tracked all maner of injuries at the DZ and found that out of ALL student injuries, more than half were from people over a certain weight, (I think 220). They flat out refused to take anyone over that weight AFF or Tandem and from the 200 + to that rate charged more. It was seen as an acceptable risk range depending on the fitness level. This from a DZ that made me fill out a form when I had a reserve ride there. They really do track that stuff. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Riskier for the instructor. The equipment question is cut and dry...A rig is rated to a certain suspended weight...One pound over is illegal and most places will not let that happen (and should not). However, to fly a bigger person it many times requires the TI to be smaller to offset the weight of the passenger (Remember we can't go over a certain weight...so if the gear is rated to say 350 pounds and you weigh 220, then that leaves only 130 pounds available for the Instructor). A bigger person is harder/riskier to the TI than a smaller person. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Simple. Just jumping carries a certain amount of risk. That risk is increased, and the strain the TI experiences is higher with bigger people. Safe to take or not is not the issue...A super fatty is not going to go with me on a tandem. However, a big person who is fit is not any greater risk of catastrophic failure...But, that extra weight does pose a higher risk, say on landing of them hitting my legs. Would you rather a 10 pound weight get dropped on you, or a 100 pound weight? Ever act as a TI? The risk is manageable but there. It is a lot more work to jump with a 240 pounder no matter how fit they are vs a 110 pound person. And safer on landing....I can just stand by my own with a 110 pounder hanging off of me. With a 240 pounder I have to be careful they don't land on me. Like I asked....Ever been a TI? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Added risk to the instructor. Also, a DZ that I know did a study and it seems that most of the injuries they had were students over 200 pounds. And every accident is increased risk of being sued. Most of the additional money...(all that I know of) goes to the instructor for taking the extra risk/effort. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I like the idea. I already land where I am safe, not just close. But if you have worries about traffic, you can always land in the student area as well. When in Eloy, I have landed away from the main landing area if it looked crowded. My current DZ has three main areas. Left hand pattern (which allows 180's), Swoop lane, and the "no mans land", where you can do as you please. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334