CDRINF

I was an Army Brat in high school living at Fort Bragg when the accident cj mentions happened and was fascinated by all things airborne which eventually led to my skydiving life. I remember our dads talking about this accident. (Note: when your a kid, "My dad is bank president, my Dad's the mayor, my Dad's the richest lawyer in town...etc" can't hold a candle to "My Dad and all oif his best frioends jump out of airplanes in the middle of the night." A friend who's dad commanded 1-505 was one of the first to reach the body on the DZ. When I went to jump school in '85 the blackhats still used it as an example of what not to do in the aircraft in terms of trying to stop a stick. They related that the Air Force loadmaster was the one who tried to stop the stick. As I recall, there were a number of serious entanglement accidents during this time at Fort Bragg. One was a three-way entaglement that got written up in the Paraglide, if I remember correctly. The MC1-1B was in general use for mass tactical jumps at the time. The speed with which the jumpmasters cleared the aircraft putting jumpers very close together, simultaneous exits from both doors, and steerable canopies that weren't under control for the first few seconds made a bad combination, especially if a jumper had a weak exit. All of this lead to switching back to the old reliable T-10 and slowing down the exit speed to ensure alternating door exits. There were two techniques which were called Alternating Door Exit Procedure Option I and II. This of course was ADEP Option I and ADEP Option II in Army speak which the troop quickly modified to "Ate Up Option I and II". Moral of the story from a safety standpoint: Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. (In this case use steerable canopies) and don't ever get caught by "we've always done it this way." (In this case, very rapid mass exit procedures). CDR

Chuck, If that ever comes to pass, I will square it away. I should know about O6 by late November. In the meantime I have a year in Afghanistan to get through when I deploy next month. I don't want to work for a contractor, though. I am trying to talk the wife into living in a broken down bus at the end of the runway at Z-Hills when I pack it in. ...and yes, you guys are cool and attractive! Chris

Chuck (or anyone who knows), Why the rule about not being allowed to be on ordinary leave status? Seems odd. Are they tring to keep it a Fort Bragg only, or military teams only kind of thing and limit individual jumpers? CDR

What Matt Cline says about the aircraft is absolutely right. Check out AR 95-1. The reg specifically says you can't schedule A/C just to support skydiving. The key is that the supporting aviation commander buy into the use of the aircraft. If he agrees that it is a valid training mission for his pilots, you are golden. I was involved in trying to keep the Campbell club afloat around 2000 and helped start the Polk club in 1998. What helped us is that the Rucker club had just shut down and we got all of their gear, which saved us a bundle. Not sure if that stuff is still around somewhere at Polk, but you could ask. We also had strong support from the command group who had all done tours at Campbell. They understood the value of having a club at a remote place like Polk. We used to jump on Honor Field. It lasted about 2-3 years and then a new airfield commander showed up who raised hell about flying skydivers. I was gone by then, so I don't know how it all ended, but 9-11 did not help. CDR

Would the dollar bill say "In Willy We Trust"? Would we sing "Willy Bless America"? If you hit your thumb with a hammer would you say "Willy Damn!"? If you were in court would you swear to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you Willy"? When you made love to your wife, would she scream, "OH WILLY, OH WILLY!"? Raining and I can't jump. Just wondering.

Been that way for a couple of weeks now. Loads slow and then I get a "Cannot find website" message. I use AOL as my browser. All other forums load fine. CDR

From what I am told by folks I used to jump with at Fort Campbell, they are putting an Otter at Outlaw Field (Yep, that's its name. Named after a real guy, not a gang). Aim is probably to fill the void left by the Fort Campbell Sport Parachute Activity which closed in 2004 after being active at Campbell since 1958. CDR

Fort Benning has Opelika 1 hr away witha Cessna, and Skydive Atlanta 1.5 hr away with a King Air. The Silver Wings train at Skydive Atlanta. Z-Hills is a 6 hour drive from Benning. Fort Hood, as stated above has Skydive Temple with a Cessna close by and San Marcos with an Otter(?) a couple hours away. Fort Campbell has Skydive Paris about an hour away with a Cessna, and Mike Mullins place about three hours away with his King Air. There is a Tandem operation in Russelville, KY and some talk of an operation starting outside Campbell in Clarksville. Fort Riley has the K-State club nearby in Wamego, and Skydive Kansas a couple hours away in Osage. All Cessna DZs in Kansas, Nepbraska, Iowa, and western Missouri, but some good regional boogies like Couch Freaks and Redemption. Fort Irwin is in striking distance of the So-Cal DZs like Paris, but you will drive several hours. Fort Lewis is close to Kapowsin, but I don't have specifics. Not sure about Fort Polk anymore. Used to be a DZ in Shreveport, but I ususally went to the Beaumont/Houston area (4 hours). 1 DZ in Korea in Seoul. $100 to join, $80 a jump! (as of 2003). Not sure about Drum or Carson. CDR

***A USPA inspection score will never outweigh what jumpers want, CHEAP ALTITUDE!*** I have to agree with Tom on that one. GM or not makes no difference, skydivers want to jump and inspections won't change anything. A friend of mine just told me that the ASC bubbas were looking at opening a new Otter equipped DZ in an area that has a number of jumpers but no turbine DZ. I pointed out that these were the same shysters that run Skyride and all he said was "Yeah, but it's an Otter!!!!" CDR

This has been touched on before in the Forums. I am in the Army and fairly far up the ladder in terms of rank and command. AR 600-8-4 Line of Duty Policy generally states that the injury will generally always be in Line of Duty unless it involves unauthorized absence, intentional misconduct or willful negligence. Sport parachuting is never specifically mentioned. The applicable passages are in appendix B: B–9. Rule 9 Injury or death because of erratic or reckless conduct, without regard for personal safety or the safety of others, is not in the line of duty. It is due to misconduct. This rule has its chief application in the operation of a vehicle but may be applied with any deliberate conduct that risks the safety of self or others. "Thrill" or "dare-devil" type activities are also examples of when this rule may be applied. B–12. Rule 12 The line of duty and misconduct status of a soldier injured or incurring disease or death while taking part in outside activities, such as business ventures, hobbies, contests, or professional or amateur athletic activities, is determined under the same rules as other situations. To determine whether an injury or death is due to willful negligence, the nature of the outside activity should be considered, along with the training and experience of the soldier. So, as a commander, my job would be to determine if you were skydiving in a manner that could be considered reckless and without due regard for safety. This might include considerations of: are you properly trained; are you following USPA BSRs; are you jumping an out of date reserve; are you violating FARs? If you need further opinion or backing, talk to the SJA Legal Assistance Office, or the IG (not in terms of an IG complaint, but in terms of them being experts at finding out what the applicable regs are). Now, bottom line from a common sense point of view (and yes, regs do allow for commander judgment and common sense): Skydiving is not illegal. Your commander cannot stop you from jumping any more than he could order you not to ski, scuba dive, or ride a motorcycle. There is a VERY prominent currently serving 4-star who I am told tried to put out an edict as a brigade commander that none of his officers would ride motorcycles. The IG told him the order would not fly and was in fact not enforceable. (Interestingly enough, this commander was also a skydiver). That said, there are times when you are attending certain training courses that the military will tell you not to engage in certain high risk activities during the course so as to protect their investment. They can't put you in jail, but they could drop you from the course. You can also site the example of tacit approval that the Army has actively sponsored sport parachuting for years. See AR 95-1 Flight Regulations: "Army aircraft my be used for the following purposes: ... Support of sport parachute clubs set up by installation commander under AR 215-1" and AR 215-1 MWR para 8-25n. You can also mention that USPAs single largest category of employment for current skydivers is the military (I think you can find it on their website.) You can also tell them you are corresponding with an active duty, serving battalion commander who has been jumping for almost 20 years and in fact has been injured skydiving with no loss of LOD status CDR

There were a number of studies and proposals on this in the 50's and 60's to support the space program: http://www.astronautix.com/craftfam/rescue.htm CDR

....someone has grabbed your ass at Couch Freaks (can apply to male or female).

MRVS used to be my home DZ and I was on staff. MRVS staff normally go to Couch Freaks every year and the DZ shuts down. Tom always told me that these days he trys to stay as far away from skydiving as he can on Labor Day weekend. It's the one weekend he takes off all year. Still, I would call just in case things change. CDR

I am arriving Friday evening. How late will you have registration open? CDR

I think you have some good input for your decision: Don't join the Air Force! They seem like a real tight-assed bunch when it comes to rules! Remember: The Army invented the idea jumping out of a plane because you wanted to voluntarily jump out. The Air Force only sees it as a way of leaving a plane that is going to crash. CDR

Been in the Army 21 years and jumping for 19. 1) Your biggest obstacle to jumping will be sometimes being stationed someplace with no dropzone nearby. The year I was in Korea, it was pretty bleak. Deployments to assorted unpleasant places for wars and such don't provide much in the way of jumping opportunities either. You can also get lucky, however, like I am now and be only an hour and 15 min from a thriving turbine DZ. 2) Skydiving is not illegal. Your commander cannot stop you from jumping any more than he could order you not to go golfing. There is a VERY prominent currently serving 4-star who I am told tried to put out an edict as a brigade commander that none of his officers would ride motor cycles. The IG told him the order would not fly and was in fact not enforceable. (Interestingly enough, this commander was also a skydiver). That said, there are times when you are attending certain training courses that the military will tell you not to engage in certain high risk activities so as to protect their investment. They can't put you in jail, but they could drop you from the course. 3) Any skydiving injuries are considered "in line of duty" just like any other sports injuries. Saying that they would not be is an old rumor I have never seen proven. I did an official investigation of a military demo team accident once and got very familiar with all of the regs. 4) A large percentage of skydivers are current or former military. You are liable to find lots of like minded folks in this area. CDR

They are still in use. Saw airborne students dropping just the other day (I am stationed at Benning). They do break down a lot, though, so not everyone gets a chance. In my airborne class, only about 60 out of some 250 of us got to go off them and that was 1985. I did plenty of "hit the hole poll man" but never got to jump them myself. CDR

I was on the load that had the accident and part of the group "locked down" in the FBO for statements, so I missed the police reaction in the camping area. Once they let us go, the only thing odd I encountered was a number of people who said they had been told by someone in authority (either boogie staff or police, not sure) that the cops had said no one could leave the airport grounds at all. This was plainly untrue as no cops were at the gate stopping people, at least by the time I got there. I encountered no cops on the way into town that evening. CDR

Talk about landing out. Anyone hear about this or have more info? Seems a bit embarrassing! Washington Times July 15, 2007 Pg. 3 Paratroopers Land At Prison CANON CITY, Colo. — A unit of 25 military paratroopers landed inside the perimeter of a state prison, but not to quell a riot or attempt some movie-script breakout. They just goofed. The paratroopers, armed with exercise rifles that shoot rubber bullets, landed in a cornfield outside the Fremont Correctional Institute early Thursday, Colorado Department of Corrections spokeswoman Katherine Sanguinetti said. Guards escorted them off the grounds with no violence, she told the Rocky Mountain News. Miss Sanguinetti said she did not know which military unit was involved. She said an investigation is under way but it appears guards handled the inadvertent intrusion correctly. The newspaper said the Army and Air Force denied knowledge of the episode. The Colorado National Guard did not return a call seeking comment.

Probably did not come out right. I believe that in the past at the entry level, the training was better. My first jump course (1988 and yes, it was on modern, ram-air, piggyback gear - oh okay, we had round reserves and FXC AADs) was very thorough, lasting 5 evenings, lots of PLFS, lots of harness time practicing malfunction procedures, and I learned to pack as well. I jumped my own pack job on my first jump. Yesterday I jumped with an A license holder who was very nervous about jumping his own pack job. Why does he not have that confidence? Confidence in your equipment and abilities was the first thing I was taught. What else is this guy unsure of? Is this the kind of person who will think, "It's okay, the computer gizmo will save me if I do something wrong"? (This would be equivalent to "I don't need to know how to use the dive tables, the dive computer will save me.") It seems to me this is partly the result of rushing people through training to get them into the air quickly. On the high end, these days there is more formal training, but you have to pay for it: coaching, tunnels, canopy handling, packing instruction. So, better in a sense that it is not left to chance, but now you have to pay for what used to be given for free. A whole industry has grown up around this, to include an attitude of, "If you want to use my time, you'll need to pay for it." Not universal, but I do see it. Right around the time I started jumping, I remember a series of letters in "Parachutist" labeled "Lurk Me Not" where the writer bitched about low timers bugging him to jump with them. He made the statement, "I have spent enough time and money in this sport to have earned the right to enjoy quality skydives." In those pre-internet days it took longer than it does here on DZ.com, but over the next couple of months the writer got absolutely lambasted by other letter writers who all said in effect, "Quit being selfish and give back to the sport! Help new jumpers like other experienced jumpers helped you. We will all benefit." Recently, in contrast, both here and in the two major skydiving pubs there have been discussions about why the sport costs so much. Some newbies have basically said "I want to learn and get good, but it seems so expensive" and the general response has been, "If you want it bad enough, you will pay for coaching." What a change! Now instead of growth in the sport being from experienced jumpers sharing their knowledge, it rests on students laying down big bucks. So, like scuba, skydiving has followed the evolution of newcomers throwing down a lot of money and buying their way into the sport quickly, rather than hanging out at the DZ all day every weekend and learning for free, building experience over time. The industry has responded by doing things to chase those with the money. This has changed the character of the sport, in some ways good, an in other ways bad. CDR

To get back on topic (rather than a discussion about opening altitudes or S/L vs. AFF): I am intrigued, because I have thought a lot about this and I think we have seen it happen in other recreational activities. I think skiing and motorcycling have gone through similar evolutions. I have always felt that the phenomenon Winsor describes had its roots with Baby Boomer Yuppies who made a lot of money in the '80's, and were now looking for new places to spend it. I recall seeing some scuba industry literature in the late 80's that identified this market which had a large amount of disposable income and suggested ways of going after it. A lot of the marketing revolved around giving these folks a "cool" experience with which to impress friends and co-workers. The quickie "Resort Course" training programs which put a partially trained diver in the water closely supervised by instructor were an example (sound familiar?). This demographic brought a lot of cash into the sport. Instead of slowly working their way up the ladder via static line instruction and hanging out at the DZ to learn, these folks had the ability to buy their way into the sport quickly through Tandem, AFF, paid coaches, wind tunnels, and paying top dollar for custom made, color coordinated gear. They didn't need to learn to pack since they could afford packers. DZ's and gear manufacturers went out of their way to meet this new demand. By the mid-90's I noticed a big shift in the type of person you saw skydiving. Instead of primarily military, former military, college students, and fringe element hippies looking for something unique to do, I was seeing a lot more doctors, lawyers, and other high end professions. Prices went up and the younger kids got squeezed out. From a training standpoint, the high-end training has improved (wind tunnels, canopy coaching, RW coaching). This is good in a sense, since in the old days you were often left on your own after you were cleared to solo. You then had to try to buddy up to an experienced jumper who was willing to teach you. I think the entry level training and grounding in the fundamentals may not be as good, and in many cases the industry has modified it to go after the quick buck. Progression in the sport is often financially out of reach of many who were its former mainstays. CDR

QuoteWhats so bad about not wanting to go below 4500'? ----------------------------------------------- For most serious RW, you are not even going to break off until 4000 or lower (depends on the formation size), then have to track like a banshee for a bit to get separation. This will put you at or near your minimum pack opening altitude, which is 2000 for a D license holder. Unless you are comfortable doing that, you won't get on the bigger loads. The thing that has changed training-wise, is that if you leaned static-line, your first jump and first freefall were from 3000'. From there, you worked your way up in exit altitude, but were still comfortable with an opening altitude of between 2000' and 3000'. AFF turns that on it's head, with openings occurring relatively high, and the jumper then having to work his/her way down in "comfort level" to the minimum pack opening altitudes. I remember my first hop and pop, and 5 second delays clearly. I was very worried about getting to my ripcord as fast as possible; so fast I would go unstable. Those that taught me told me to relax, and keep a good deliberate cadence. I learned from this that "slow is smooth and smooth is fast" as they say. There was time to get this done, and my confidence level improved tremendously. It also helped when dealing with malfunctions, low exit, and engine out situations, which can happen. As an S/L instructor, I also routinely bail out after the last student at around 2800' and am in the saddle by 2000'. CDR

All too true. I scuba dived for a while in the late 80's/early 90's and noticed that the general level of training was not up to that I saw in skydiving. During my open water class I saw a mother and a son who had obviously bought every piece of matching, color coordinated gear before they even took their first lesson. Mom did not pay attention in class because she spent the time fussing over her son. I did not feel as safe around other scuba divers as I did around skydivers. I came close to dying on a dive at Cozumel with a dive partner who was a "Master Diver" but had essentially bought her certifications. At my original home DZ I was 100% confident in the training of my fellow skydivers. Nowadays, more and more I run into skydivers who won't jump without a Cypres, are scared to pull any lower than 4500', can barely (or won't) pack for themselves, consider jumping a Cessna beneath them, think they need to downsize canopies just to keep with the Jonses, believe that it's safer than driving a car, and seem bent on killing themselves and me just to look cool. CDR

Depends not on who wins, but where you are: Just prior to executing a Soviet prisoner and an American turncoat, one of the kids trys to stop Patrick Swayze and says: "If you do this, what's the difference between us and them?!" Swayze answers: "The difference is that WE LIVE HERE!" It's that simple. No one wants outsiders occupying their country. CDR

I saw this when it happened and thought it might be the same Keith Yoakum. I think you and he started jumping there at Campbell about a year or so before I did (1988). He was a demonstrater/AI for my first jump course. I remember one time he checked off one of my pack jobs and I then had a minor malfunction and he was quite concerned about that. I recall there was a series of pictures in the club scrapbook of him jumping in his Class A's for his 101st jump. I hope someone saved that when the club shut down. CDR D-15996