sinker

oh my gawd. that was insane. that was a rush just watching it... -the artist formerly known as sinker

If I DO like your avatar, can I still kiss Sunshine's ass? -the artist formerly known as sinker

don't frown girfriend, you're still ahead of me... well, but that's not saying much, is it... -the artist formerly known as sinker

oh shit. I am now officially scared!! -the artist formerly known as sinker

Dude, we're all so excited for you! Keep us posted! My wife is due in about 5 weeks, so you'll win this time, Rhino. But I'll get you next time. -the artist formerly known as sinker

chris... hmmm, given our recent conversations, maybe I deserve the first call, eh? (Holy shit, that's going to make everyone think we're lovers! Aw, who am I fooling, we ARE LOVERS!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!) 615-293-5713 If I'm not the first one you call I'll have you excommunicated! -the artist formerly known as sinker

Hello Wendy! I am with you there, my brain is mush from work and travel. Sure, we can start a thread about it. I just hope that it doesn't become a free-for-all beating on the pro-lifer just kidding Seriously though, it would be nice to preface the thread with a sort of disclaimer that the thread should remain peaceful and w/o attacks... I know most people willingly follow that rule, but this is such an emotional topic for people. If people can't do that, they should be grown up enough not to participate. But from what I know of you and Justin and some others, that y'all will not have a problem with that. One last thought... I'd like us to agree to all be able to group cyber hug afterwards... well, maybe not. Maybe just a cigarette or a drink... peace... md -the artist formerly known as sinker

I am very much enjoying our correspondence about abortion. Since the thread has long since left this topic, I propose we move our argument to email or pm's... is this ok with you? To the rest of the thread participants, sorry if we've been a bother... I am still on the road currently but will return to my home Thursday night and will able to devote more attention to the current argument. Talk to you soon I hope... -the artist formerly known as sinker

Thanks for that... I completely agree w/ you and I appreciate your sentiment. I am enriched by my relationship with folks who do not share my principles and beliefs. I hope that other dz.commers feel the same... (and I'm sure some or most do...) -the artist formerly known as sinker

apologies up front to those dz.commers who get annoyed by long posts on very controversial topics like abortion... but don't say I didn't warn you. sorry it's taken me a while to respond. I am travelling for work... You raise a good point that has caused me to think about this more deeply. The one thing I can't reconcile however is this: I believe that one cannot mandate that a person give up their life so that another may live, no matter how noble that choice may be. So if, in the case of conception following a rape, it was a real probability (and I mean probability, not a .007% possibility of death from delivery according to the CDC stat posted earlier) that the woman would die if she didn't abort the baby conceived by rape, I would have a hard time saying that it was wrong to abort. However, given the overwhelming likelihood that the woman AND the baby will survive the delivery, your argument is difficult to justify. Put another way, pregnancy is not an illness, let along a terminal one. "Oh, I'm pregnant... I better abort or I could die." That is just not tenable. The woman is more likely to die from the abortion that she is the pregnancy and birth. Perhaps I wasn't being clear on this point. No it was not a diversionary tactic. It appears that you are far to willing to ascribe nefarious motives to my arguments... maybe not, but it appears that way to me. Anyway, your point was that preventing abortions robs women of the sovereignity over their bodies. My counter point was this: the product of conception is NOT her body. Therefore, there is no sovereignity to usurp. My throwing the example of invetro and other biotechs simply goes to illustrate that advances in medical science is beginning to demonstrate the truth that an unborn child is NOT it's mother. It is genetically different, it's blood supply is even a different type. Again, it's only requirements are nutrition, protection. It doesn't apply to rape. Sorry for being schizo on you. It applies to the broader issue of abortion on demand. The Alan Gutmacher Institute stats from Planned Parenthood show that the overwhelming # of abortions are not from rape, incest and the like, but over convenience. Wait a second. It doesn't make Pro-lifers not pro-life b/c, as a result of pregnancy, 7 women out of 1000 may die. Our hope would be that the mothers and the babies live and everything possible should be done towards achieving that goal. The most important thing I want to say in this thread is this... Congrats on the birth of your first child! What an incredible joy! I remember when my first was born just like it was yesterday. And in 6 weeks we will be having another child and I can't wait for that joyous event to happen. Maybe some day we can raise a toast to our children together. Sorry to the other dz.commers for the long post. -the artist formerly known as sinker

well for tarnashin's sake, freakin tell us already! Sheeit -the artist formerly known as sinker

these are OHIO??? no way! They're great shots!! -the artist formerly known as sinker

one last comment from me... and that is about the strength skydiving personalities and the bonds between them and others. the issue of abortion is such a devisive one that it often times breaks up friendships. I hope that is not the case with those of us having these debates. I feel no ill will whatsoever to anyone who disagrees with my view points and I have no contempt for any woman who may have had an abortion. I will never call you a murderer. I will never think of you as less than human. I have very dear friends who have had abortions and I love them very much. I hope those of you who disagree with me feel the same. -the artist formerly known as sinker

/shrugs shoulders/ well, can't say much to that. we all do indeed need to live w/ our choices in life. some are easier to live with than others. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Well, I'm surprised that it has taken this long for these particular issues to come up from the pro-choice side. And it does usually come to this. It's a shame really, b/c we really were having a good clean not-too-heated debate that didn't resort to such fallacies... In response to your first statement... I am NOT so cavalier to think that it is easy to give a child up for adoption. It seems you've misunderstood me or I wasn't speaking clearly. I don't know personally how difficult it is, but I have witnessed it. I hope that my wife and I are never in that position. However, just because it is difficult, even gut-wrenching, does not mean that one should avoid it either. Life is full of very difficult things. Many of us have been forced to deal with very difficult things, things we couldn't do anything about. You know, my wife has a wasting, debilitating illness that is shaving time off of her life. And you know, there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. Except suffer through and love her. And in that suffering, I have grown. She has grown. And so it should be in the case of not aborting. You know, you either make the choices and move forward the best you can or you succumb to an "easy" out. No, I'm not saying abortion is an easy decision, but it is far less painful that carrying a baby to term and either keeping it and raising it w/ love or putting it up for adoption to a couple that perhaps couldn't have kids. And, if a baby is a baby, it is a moot point anyway. It all comes back to the humanity of the fetus. So a girl has to put off college b/c she got pregnant and has to drop out in order to take care of her self and her child until adoption or some other choice. Hmmm... college education or a unique, unrepeatable human being?? Hard choice there... /sarcasm off/ Your second paragraph... in a way, you are correct... if a woman is raped, conceives and does not have an abortion, and that woman dies during childbirth, the perpetrator should be guilty of an additional crime b/c of the death of the mother. But realistically, death by childbirth, while not eradicated 100%, is EXTREMELY rare. Yes it happens. But the number of times it happens is so infinitely small. Even still, to entertain this possibility, again very bad things happen to people. It's part of life. People get killed in car accidents. A tree limb may fall on someone's head and kill them. I may accidentally shoot and kill an intruder who was drunk and stumbled into the wrong house. It happens. And it's tragic. But, invoking the principle of double effect, you cannot perform an unjust act so that a good may come of it. Of course, this presupposes the unjustness of abortion. Your third paragraph: the Pro-life stance does not rob women of the sovereignity of their bodies. The product of conception is NOT the woman's body. It is dependent on the woman's body for growth. The only part of her body was the egg. Once the sperm penetrates the zona pelucida and conception occurs, the genetics are altered in such a way that that "blob of tissue" is now a unique, unrepeatable human being. Not even the blood supply is the same. All it needs is time and growth. C'mon now, look at all the work being done in the labs with cloning and genetics and biotechnologies such as invetro fert and the like. Just b/c it doesn't look like a baby doesn't mean it's not. And again, it is only relying on the woman's body for nutrition and growth and protection. The woman, like it or not, is now a carrier of another person and has responsibilities to it. If she doesn't want to take those responsibilities, well so be it, but she should be aware that as a result she may have caused a human life to perish. And please... reducing women to mindless fetal incubators? Not very imaginative. I can't think of a more fallacious argument here than this one you've given. It's really just the opposite, this ability of women to bear new life. If she didn't want to run the risk of being pregnant, she shouldn't have sex. That simple. Yes, I'm serious. Same for men. Don't want to father a child? Keep it in your pants. How about personal responsibility for your actions, not "easy outs." Let's look a little deeper at how it SHOULD be... A man and a woman love each other and desire to be united to each other in the deepest way possible. They want to give themselves to the other to such a full extent that they want to give to the other their generative capacity, their ability to participate in the creation of life. And, 9 months later, the two really HAVE become one, not just in their sexual embrace, but in the new person that resulted from that embrace, a new, unique, unrepeatable human being. Ok, so you may be puking now. But really, isn't that the way it should be? Or is our sexuality really about base fucking. In the scenario I painted above, women aren't base fetal incubators, but cherished women who have the greatest natural ability, to participate in the creation and nurturing of new human beings! I know, in the current day and age, this view of human sexuality is not widely accepted. And that is too bad really. Our society is the worse for it. I agree with your last paragraph somewhat... no woman should take abortion lightly. Most do not. However, some do. For them it's just like birth control. No, the mother's rights are not meaningless. But there is no situation in life where one's "rights" subordinate the most fundamental rights of others, namely to LIFE. I apologize for the long post. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from. And I'm sorry if I've said anything that was insensitive. It certainly wasn't my intention. What I do know is that to a degree, you are wrong. I DO KNOW what it is like to be abused by someone much stronger than me. I DO KNOW that incredible sense of powerlessness. I do NOT know what it is like to carry or give birth to a child. But I've been with my wife every step of the way for the birth of both of our kids as well as the child due in 5-6 weeks. I know what that is like, having lived with it day in and day out. But you know, just b/c I can't get pregnant and have kids doesn't for one second disqualify me from being able to say anything about this. It isn't just men who are pro-life and women who are pro-choice. To think so is myopic. Again, I'm very sorry that this has been an emotional topic for you. I wish you well... -the artist formerly known as sinker

The raped woman would be forced to raise the child??? Ever heard of adoption? Ever heard of the shortage of babies for adoption? There are so many families who was love to adopt and care for a baby, even the product of rape. And again, if the fetus is a human being, the fact that he/she/it was the product of a crime does not mean it's ok to kill it. The baby did nothing wrong. The mother did nothing wrong. Yes, the mother should carry it to term. Yes, that will be difficult for the mother, but NOT NECESSARILY. I know women who have been raped and carried to term. One put the baby up for adoption, the other kept it AND through the process of keeping the child, came to an incredible healing of her rape. True, that won't be the case for everyone. But still, when a woman aborts the product of rape, who is a child, she victimizes herself as well as her innocent child. And to Bytch's comment that if you haven't been there you don't know and don't have anything intelligent to say... sorry, doesn't fly. Does that mean I need to be or must have been a drug addict in order to help someone recover? Don't think so. Do doctors need personal experience w/ the diseases they diagnose and cure? Hardly.... -the artist formerly known as sinker

The absence of "meaningful moments" defines humanity? How can such an obtuse term account for any defining of what it means to be human? If I haven't had a meaningful moment in the past week / month / year, am I not human any more? What if, as in the case of Cletus the Fetus, I am temporarily prevented from having any "meaningful moments?" And further, I would say that simply existing is a meaningful moment, or rather, many such moments. But the life of a fetus is, in a sense, apart from the parent. It develops it's own blood, even a different type. And, a fetus can live apart from the mother earlier and earlier. Not necessarily. True, it is a probability. And it is a tragedy, things like crack babies and fetal alcohol syndrome. But these lives are not w/o value either! We automatically assume that b/c a life has been damaged by the poor choices of another, that it ipso facto doesn't have value. Look at the kids in the Special Olympics. They are a pure joy to work with and be with. I SO agree with you on this one. My wife and I would gladly adopt as many as we could. -the artist formerly known as sinker

>>Sorry....my daughter is an innocent life......and if she were to get pregnant.....God forbid raped, etc.. and she did not want to carry the baby for a variety of reasons then no government should have the right to make her. So, her aborting would make more victims, her and the baby. If the government said abortion was illegal, it wouldn't be forcing her to have the baby. It would be saying that killing the baby through abortion was a crime. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Look, if abortion were not legal and some woman attempted to abort the child herself, well sorry that's pretty dumb of her. If she is so pro choice, well, she can make that choice too. -the artist formerly known as sinker

>>Is it better to have a drug-involved 13-year-old carry a >>child to (whatever) than to have her have an abortion? Isn't it better for the 13 yr old to not be involved in drugs? We shouldn't want to fix a problem w/ another problem. And if what the 13 yr old is pregnant w/ is a child, killing it will not help matters -the artist formerly known as sinker

how much damage is it going to do the 13 year old girl to give birth then put the baby up for adoption? This versus the killing of an innocent life? but the real issue is this... when does life begin? If it begins at conception, most of these questions cease to exist. -the artist formerly known as sinker

women die from botched abortions NOW TODAY. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I don't think we need to introduce the legal status of women who procure abortions intent or cause them by accident. I maintain, and I realize I am in the minority about this in certain circles, is this... the fertilized egg is human. It can be nothing but. However, if I'm wrong, I have yet to see any evidence even remotely conclusive that demonstrates WHEN a baby is a baby. Since there continues to be scientific debate about the beginning of human life, again, the only prudent choice is to assume it begins at conception. To do otherwise is imprudent. This applies to the BC issue also. If some of the action of BC is abortifacient (BCPs, IUD, etc), and human life begins at conception, then logic dictates that BC isn't acceptible. Now, the issue of spontaneous abortions and miscarriages and the like. This falls into the same category as someone having a stroke and dying. Or having a heart attack or dying of cancer. It is tragic, but it happens. It's nature's way. Or bodies aren't perfect. With the case of your friends who agonized over the selective reduction issues, the real question is this: Does the good of the one outweigh the good of the other? I've read many medical cases where doctors were "sure" that a baby wouldn't survive and that the mother should abort. Only the mother went to term and the baby survived. My mother in law did that with her last child. Docs said abort, too many health probs. Well, guess what... 17 years later, she'll be a senior in HS next year. She has some health probs, but they are not burdensome, esp. given the joy she brings to everyone. It boils down the the principle of double effect. One cannot do something evil so that good may occur. It's a basic philosophical tenant that is often ignored. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Wendy, I certainly don't think you're evil for having an abortion. And I certainly admire your candor. I'm not a demonizing pro-lifer that bombs abortion clinics (and, let's all rejoice that Eric Rudolph has been captured). For most women it is a difficult decision to make, and for too many of them, there are emotional and physical complications that last long after the procedure. Just a couple of things... of course most women will opt for BC over abortion. The only problem is that no BC or any amount of education will be 100% effective in preventing unwanted pregnancies. Therefore, abortion for some WILL be a "choice" they feel forced into. Which brings me to the second point... humanity cannot be in the eye of the beholder. One is human or one is not. If one is human, one is not a frog, even though some men will act like toads into perpetuity. Humanity was in the eye of the beholder in Nazi Germany and we all know what happened there. The slippery slope you spoke of is only the unwinding of the pro-choice mentality. The true slippery slope occurred when abortion was legalized. It continues in the euthanasia movement and will continue into perpetuity like those toadie men. Humans cannot define what it means to be human. Every time man has tried, he has erred (womAn too). One is either human or one is not, irrespective of how one defines humanity. Humans can simply state, correctly or incorrectly, that one is or one is not. It isn't for us to decide, it is for us to recognize. The status of "human" is a matter of objective truth, not subjective speculation. It is our job to discover that truth. And I believe it is discoverable irrespective of anyone's religious beliefs. Just look at all we know now about genetics, germs, disease, etc. that we didn't know 10, 50, 200 years ago. -the artist formerly known as sinker