sinker

I very much like what you said. -the artist formerly known as sinker

yeah, I almost forgot! But I've had sex a lot more than I've skydived... 35 jumps versus.... who the hell knows how many carnal jumps... thanks for the kind words above man, I really appreciate it. It's nice to know that I'm not discarded carte blanche simply b/c I am a member of a particular religion or b/c I have particular beliefs. It's far too common to be dismissed that way. It's a shame that so many people who have the same beliefs have come across as judgemental assholes... they've fucked it up for those of us who aren't... -the artist formerly known as sinker

I think we're getting our posts mixed up... my long response about hypcrosy was aimed at your post to Muenkel where you linked a search of his contributions to the tittee bar thread. I really appreciated your comments you later wrote that you think Muenkel and I are a nice change to the staleness that too often accompanies people who say do as I say not as I do... thanks for the clarification -the artist formerly known as sinker

And I counter that if that's all they want, just to fuck like rabbits for the sake of fucking, then they certainly have the RIGHT to do so, but that doesn't ipso facto make it right in a moral sense. Just b/c you don't think it is demeaning to the human person doesn't mean it's not demeaning in reality. It goes fundamentally to what sex is and what it's for. It is my opinion that pleasure accompanies those activities that persons engage in. It helps to signify an act as good. Eating is very pleasurable. But pleasure is not it's primary end. It is secondary. Sure, we eat things sometimes strictly for pleasure, but in the end, it isn't good for us, i.e. b/c of weight gain, health probs, etc. For someone to eat only for pleasure and not for the nutrition and sustenance it provides, say be eating then purging, we call that disordered... Same with sleep. It's profoundly pleasurable, provided there aren't problems like insomnia, etc. But the pleasure that comes with it is secondary to it's primary end, the health and restoration of the person. So too with sex, in my opinion. It is the most pleasurable thing known to humans. Yet as with the other biological function, how can pleasure be it's only end? So what, pray tell, could they be? In my opinion, they are two fold... bonding and babies. Most obviously, sex is for procreation. No explanation necessary. However, why does the woman's desire for sex perdure even when she is not in estrous, when procreation can not possibly take place? Well, bonding, union, one-ness. Not "fucking." Union. The giving of oneself to another in the most pure, sublime, complete way possible. And the pleasure comes (no pun intended) as a natural fruit of the act. Unfortunately, this view is hardly espoused in our society at all any more. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Thank you. And I couldn't agree more. I know I've fucked up many many many times. And I'm more humble b/c of it. But I'm still trying to get better. I still fuck up, but I have a wife who loves me and supports me, and other good friends who see the good in me despite a lot of poor choices I make. Holy-than-thou types make me sick. Unfortunately, we've all heard so many of them that it is too tempting to label ANYONE who even remotely sounds "preachy" as such a bastard. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Someone once said that the best case for Christians are... other Christians. And in the next breath they said, one of the worst case for Christians are... other Christians. We see it all the time. Priests abusing kids. Priests having affairs w/ women. Protestant ministers getting caught employing prostitutes. Church officials embezzling money or cheating their congregations. You will ALWAYS be able to catch people who espouse Christian ideals at FAILING to meet those high standards. You'll find it in other circles as well. ALWAYS. And it is BECAUSE the bar is set so high. I've met both the Pope and Mother Theresa. And as good as they are/were, they still made mistakes. They still sinned. They still are/were far from perfect. I have yet to meet a perfect Christian. I am certainly not one and I've never claimed to be. That is why it is hard sometimes to honestly share my beliefs and values with others... knowing I fail so often and knowing that when others see that I fail may send the wrong message about Christianity as a whole. It's too easy for people to say they will not follow a Christian ethic because of the hypocrisy of others. But JT himself said it best... we are ALL hypocrites. NONE of us live up to our own internal standards 100% of the time, whether we are Christian, Muslim, Bhuddist (sp?), agnostic, aethiestic, etc. But you know what? That doesn't mean we have nothing to say. That doesn't mean that the MESSAGE isn't true. I'm not perfect, AND I'll express my values and beliefs, inspite of being a shitty Christian, BECAUSE I know that, even though the goal is lofty and hard to attain, it is worth trying for. I think it was an unfair thing, what you did to Muenkel by searching his former posts on the Tittee bar threads and whatnot. You can search mine too, you'll see that I contributed as well. Not proud of it, but I have done it. Again, I'm not perfect. That doesn't mean I shouldn't strive to meet the ideals I've set for myself. I will be the first to admit that part of the reason I feel so strongly about the topic of objectifying women is that I have, for so long, been an objectifier of women. And I realize that for some of you reading these posts will henceforth discredit what I have to say b/c I've had a change of heart. B/c I was a womanizer, and am still often tempted to be one, but try hard to NOT be one now. But you know what? People change. People grow up. They sometimes experience life events, such as having children in my case, that causes a paradigm shift. It's a shame that too many people are quick to yell "hypocrite" to such people. -the artist formerly known as sinker

and again I counter, just b/c it's business doesn't mean it's demeaning. Isn't prostitution demeaning? Sure, some here will say it isn't at least for those who CHOOSE to engage in that activity. Why is relativity the new religion? Why are all matters of morality or ethics a matter of personal choice these days? "Well, I'm ok w/ having sex with 10 year old boys, so it's not immoral." "Hey, I have no problem with men looking at woman as if they are only walking vaginas that exist only to get men's rocks off - if that's the way they want to live their life, far be it from me to tell them what is right and wrong!" It's amazing to me that people don't see how incredibly rediculous this is! There exist fundamental and universal truths that exist for humans. I'm not talking about religious beliefs. I'm talking about natural law. One of the fundamental natural laws is that it is wrong to USE another person as in a manner that is inconsistant w/ the nature of the person. I.e., it is wrong to use women as an object to fuck. And that's what HS promotes. -the artist formerly known as sinker

august it is... -the artist formerly known as sinker

yes I have. yes it was. now that I see things differently, no, I don't. And it's much much more fulfilling. -the artist formerly known as sinker

hey jt... you still live in NYC? I'm up there for business all the time... we should hook up and have a drink -the artist formerly known as sinker

oh yeah, it's all good! I love debates. Esp the really spirited ones. You've always seemed to me to be fun and laid back and very friendly and this HS thread has done nothing to change that opinion. -the artist formerly known as sinker

that almost doesn't deserve a response. because they choose it doesn't make it any less demeaning to them? -the artist formerly known as sinker

oh, I totally agree! We have our hypocrisies and HS is not the antichrist. nothing new under the sun. But he surely is contributing, not helping humanity be the best it can be. -the artist formerly known as sinker

yep, at lunch, but will be checking back off and on... this conversation is just too much fun!!!! to miss it!!! -the artist formerly known as sinker

I can't say that I am surprised that you brought religion into this. I for one have not been arguing against HS b/c of religious beliefs. Sure, my particular religious beliefs are in synch w/ what I've been saying, but that isn't the basis for my fight here. I've been coming at this from a humanistic/phenomenological perspective that is perceivable to all human beings. You don't have to belong to an organized religion to conclude that murder, rape, and incest are wrong. Nor do you have to belong to one to be against dregs of humanity like HS. You are right, that religion does draw some people who are weak minded. But religion doesn't ONLY draw the weak minded nor are all who are drawn to religion weak minded. And I haven't called HS fans his "followers." What I've been saying is that his show has a detrimental effect on society which most people ignore b/c it makes money or b/c it's entertaining or... I wonder, JT, are you calling me a zealout? You may not be but it is funny how such labels are so quickly stuck on people like me who argue such positions. And you are right... women haters and wife beaters aren't exclusive to HS's "followers." They're relatively ubiquitous in our society, IN PART, due to the entertainment industry of which HS is a good example. There are other reasons for this as well, but the entertainment industry feeds on the depravity of humanity. And you'll get no argument from me about sheeps in wolves clothing, referring to the scandals in the churches, especially the Catholic church and the priest scandals. In my opinion, those priests are INFINATELY WORSE than HS. I agree w/ you, at least HS isn't hiding behind anything. Those priests were. I cannot imagine a crime against humanity more dispicable than what pedophilic priests have done to children. I'm not for capital punishment, but these cases make me seriously want to reconsider my opinion... -the artist formerly known as sinker

well good for you. first of all, it's harder for women to fall into that trap. second of all, I've been speaking in generalizations, not to specific people. the real question is, do you find it entertaining, what he does to women on his show, or do you find it repulsive? Or are you indifferent to it? -the artist formerly known as sinker

He's an enemy to society in that what he does, specifically towards women which is the majority of his show, denegrates the good in humanity. No I don't just sit and watch to see how bad society has gotten. A lot of my graduate research was the media effect on sexual behavior. So many people think there isn't an effect. Sorry folks, yes there is. Shows like HS promote a sexual callousness towards women. If you can't see that then you are incredibly blind. My pity doesn't come from seeing people who have different morals or ideals than me. There are fundamental, universal truths about humanity that were at one time held by the vast majority. Now days, not so much and that is a cause for great alarm. Some still hold, like murder. It's wrong to murder someone. Why is that? It's wrong to rape someone. And why is that? It's wrong to have sex with minors. Fancy a guess at why? I'm not talking about these things being illegal, I'm talking about them being immoral. Crimes against nature, not just jurisprudence. These things are wrong fundamentally because they deprive others of their freedom. They steal autonomy from their victims. And, to a degree largely unnoticed by today's society, the work of HS does much the same thing, mostly through promoting a mindset that it is ok to see women as mere objects for sexual gratification. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Jeez! Can't you guys get a different come back?? You just don't have a clue!! Yes, we're blaming Howard Stern in part for the cheapening of our society. Why is a society with values such a disdainful thing? I don't have any problem with "freethinking." I think for myself. Always have. We should all think for ourselves. What we are saying is that we should ALL be about the bettering of ourselves and of our society, not dragging it down with the kind of crap that HS spews on his show. THAT is true freethinking, to see the ultimate good in humanity and to act accordingly instead of finding such infantile humor in farting in someones face, groping women's breasts, HS saying that he'd like to f*ck that chick on his show or that she's too fat and needs to loose some weight. Give me a break! -the artist formerly known as sinker

Why is pity demeaning? We SHOULD feel sorry for people who are doing things that go against their very nature as human beings. Yes, they are free thinking and free willed. But that isn't the end all-be all of human existance. It is only when one free chooses to act with the dignity that is proper to a human being that we truly fulfill ourselves. Just because you can fart in a naked chicks face while she tries to tell you how hot you are doesn't mean that you SHOULD do that. (Yes, I've seen his show. It's important to know the language of your enemies) I CAN drink myself into oblivion, but is that acting in accordance with who I am as a PERSON? Hell no. And that deserves pity. -the artist formerly known as sinker

You're exactly right!!! If people didn't listen to him, he'd be useless. A nobody. If the people want trash, they'll get trash. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I didn't mean that el diablo was behind his show... but if sinister is the word you want to use, so be it. What I meant was that shows like his has an effect on others. It cheapens society. Just as more uplifting shows that extol that which is good in humanity enrich society. -the artist formerly known as sinker

clam down or calm down? If it's calm, I am calm. It's just that crap like that gets on my nerves. Yeah, yeah, free society and all that. I'm not into censorship and all that. I just think it is really a sad commentary on our society that someone like Howard is so popular. and don't even start on the whole "intolerance" argument. Why should people tolerate crap like Howards? "Just turn the channel"?? You bet I do... but lots of people don't. Are they free to watch it? Absolutely. And I rejoice in that freedom. BUT! That crap is harmful. It's demeaning to women and it anesthetizes men to who women really are. It fosters a perception that women are nothing but objects for men's gratification. And that, IMO, is one of the worst things that can happen to a society. And, you may say that the women who go on Howard's show WANT to be there, CHOOSE to be there. Yeah, you're right. All the more reason for us to pity THEM for not having a true picture of their dignity as women and for not respecting themselves enough to not be pieces of meat... -the artist formerly known as sinker

hmmm... we shouldn't participate in the sport that we love just because there are some people (mostly men) who can only think with their dick? hmm... maybe we're their to raise the tone and bring some dignity to the air... yeah, phillykev, get your tin foil hat or whatever... I don't really give a shit if you guys don't like the way we think... I'm tired of that vile drivle that tries to pass itself off as "entertainment." It's a dreg to society. -the artist formerly known as sinker

We're going to free the world's women from the tyrrany of sexist, egotistical, objectifying men who only see women as tits and ass... wait a tick, what am I thinking? seriously though, it's not just a radio show... -the artist formerly known as sinker

yepper. and baby monica is poised to make her first exit head down! don't tell me she's already crossed over the dark side! -the artist formerly known as sinker