NoShitThereIWas

Just for the record, I do not consider myself to be a Democrat or a Republican. I supported Clinton more than I support Bush definitely but also toward Kennedy, I was stating that I agree with you and BillVon about Libertarianism and the war. Anyway, just wanted to shoot off a quick response since I have to run now! I have enjoyed reading the responses of everyone. We can always agree to disagree on things and we all have our opinions. The more views I read, the more I learn about what other people think and why and I always find that to be a valuable and good thing. Blue skies Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Great thread. I'm right up there with the chocolate, sex, skydiving and very good wine of course Donuts are always a good treat once in a while too. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

WFFC set my vocabulary straight When I hit the link, my eyebrows went up and I looked at the screen with the look of someone who doesn't quite know what to expect and then ... OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH -just like Andrew Dice Clay would have said it! (Not that there's anything wrong with that...) -rimming that is Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

I agree with both you and BillVon ... IMO, if Clinton were in office we would not have gone to war with Iraq; not the way we did or for the "real" reasons we did. If something needed to be done with Saddam that would have been tackled potentially as a side issue. I also do not think Clinton would have just sat back and let 9/11 slide either. He would have gone after the "RESPONSIBLE" party. I simply do not know enough about Gore to be able to make any kind of judgment whatsoever about what his response would have been to 9/11. I remember Clinton's response to the Oklahoma City bombing. In my opinion, that situation was handled very successfully. In the Ok City attack, eventhough the attacker was one of our own (American), it was not known until the responsible people were found and the "legitimate" investigation took place. The responsible parties were found, prosecuted and punished so that they would never be able to accomplish something like that again. As President of the US, when all that turmoil happened following the Ok City bombings, Democrat Bill Clinton handled that situation with poise, control and without lying to the American people. I can tell you one thing about GWB ... That guy was just waiting for the opportune time to go in and finish what daddy started and HE did not care or think of the consequences of lying to the American people or the rest of the world. (I'd like to say that Bush lied to the very people who elected him President, but he didn't even acquire his Presidency democratically, he pulled some big political strings). Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

OK one more quote and then I'll shut up for a while: This one came from the same article 2 posts above (Bush and Blair deceived us ...) "Neither Britain nor the US was ever at risk from Saddam. As Wolfowitz acknowledged in the Vanity Fair interview, the administration's geopolitical objectives had to do with facilitating American's withdrawl from Saudi Arabia. This required toppling Saddam and securing US control of Iraqi oil." Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Also, in an article called "Bush and Blair deceived us about the reasons for going to war, but they have deceived themselves about its impact on Iraq" from the New Statesman (Aug. 4, 2003): "In an interview with Vanity Fair, Paul Wolfowitz, the deputy defense secretary, reported that he had settled on the WMD issue as the main justification for the war 'for beaurocratic reasons' given that it was the one reason everyone could agree on. Speaking recently to reporters aboard an Air Force jet returning to Washington after a tour of Iraq, Wolfowitz went further, describing WDMs as a 'historical issue' with which he was not concerned." Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Uh Vinnie, You know I love ya bro but I have something add to this post about Bush being a liar: This came from the mouth of GWB during his speech at the UN: "The regime of Saddam Hussein cultivated ties to terror while it built weapons of mass destruction. It used those weapons in acts of mass murder and refused to account for them when confronted by the world... The Security Council was right to vow serious consequences if Iraq had refused to comply. ANd because there were consequences, because a coalition of nations acted to defend the peace and credibility of nations acted to defend the peace and the credibility of the United Nations, Iraq is free." This excerpt came right out of USA Today September 24,2003. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Yeah but I want to see some up close and personal booty. Show me the BOOTY! Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

You just never know what you may learn on DZ.Com. Thanks for educating me on one more topic. Ahhh, dental dams. So they are only for cunnilingus right? Cool, and Skymama what is a "rim" job or do I really want to know? Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Interesting, I will have to look into that. SHould I just do a Google Search on Health Savings Accounts? As far as the flu thing goes, yes you are right and getting the flu isn't much fun but I have never had a doctor help me get over the flu yet I would much rather pay for the occassional Doctor visit once or twice a year for regularly scheduled maintenece but feel the need to have some coverage mainly for an injury like a broken leg something else related to skydiving. That is when the bills really add up. I can handle the small stuff on my own, don't need an insurance company for that. And I only have one more year of school before I have a real job (hopefully) and one more season to get through as a skydiver in this situation. But in the meantime I need coverage for this year until I get a "real" job. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Aaaawww, poor Vinnie just needs a belly rub Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Thanks Skymama, Yep, we have Blue Cross in Missouri and I think they might cover me. They may be the only ones who will and it looks like I get to look forward to another hour on the phone with another insurance agent. I think they were my back up plan but I think they were quite high. To me $200 is a lot of money to pay for insurance. I guess not by today's standards. I have always been covered either through work, husband's work or school but the school I attend does not have any plans at all for students which kind of sucks. Who knows, maybe I can talk with some people at the school and get something started for students. I'll check out Blue Cross again and hopefully get some decent feedback. This just really sucks to go through this because this representative of the insurance company who already took my money told me on the phone that underwriting had approved my file and would cover me for skydiving activities/employment. So, I have been skydiving thinking I was insured. I am really kind of pissed that I feel I was lied to, intentionally or not, only because the consequences to me could have been severe. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Thanks Riddler, For the PM also. Well, the motorcycles aren't an issue for me either since I don't own one or ride one (however, that was on my list of things to do). The question on the application was do you engage in ANY hazaedous activities such as skydiving, motorcycles, etc. I specifically asked the insurance representative what would happen if I did skydive. She said they would have to do some kind of underwriting/background/history check or something. Then she got back to me and said that as long as I didn't earn money doing it I would be covered. Like if I went to make a tandem once or twice and something happened, that would be covered ... I then asked her what if I did earn money skydiving? She said they may not but she would check. She got back to me and told me yes they would cover me to skydive at which time I requested that she send me something from the insurance company in writing stating such. The insurance company billed my checking account $400 and now, 2 months later I receive all of my insurance documentation which clearly states that no indemnity shall be paid under the policy if a claim in any way relates to parachutes or skydiving. It took a considerable amount of time to find what I hoping would end up to be a decent insurance company. Now it is going to be nothing less than a headache I am sure to just get my money back Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Well, if it is going to cost me $600 a month for health insurance I may as well quit skydiving. Yes you are right, anything can happen but sometimes in life you just have to play some odds. I am not willing to spend $600 a month due to the off chance that I may develop kidney stones. Hopefully I'll not have to use my health insurance ever but it is just that, insurance. After being in this sport long enough I am not arrogant enough to say, that will never happen to me. I have way too many friends and acquaintences who have screws, plates, rods and who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. I am just hoping there are some other alternatives out there besides paying some obscene amount of money. And I agree with the person who said write your congressman. It's amazing how they all have infinite health care which costs Americans about $8,000 a year per person due to their positions. But millions of American tax payers are without any kind of health coverage and the number is growing rapidly. I am mainly targeting this thread toward independent contractors and/or DZ employees who are not receiving health insurance through work. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

The Sabre 2 would get my definite vote. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

I am at the point where I am just going to ask the skydiving community for advice/help here. I am so frustrated with the whole health/life insurance situation as a skydiver. I have tried to get 3 different coverages with 3 different compaines. One of them has already taken it upon themselves to take $400 of my money after telling me I would be covered for skydiving only to send me something in writing later saying they would cover me but not for anything related to skydiving which is my only purpose for paying to have insurance to begin with . The problem is that I am still a student (so I don't have a real job yet with benefits) and I am a full time AFF-I, vidiet and rigger during our busy season which is now. I can rig without health insurance but do not feel comfortable skydiving without it. It seems like everything goes fine with the underwriters until we get to the question: Do you engage in any hazardous activities like skydiving, motorcycle riding, etc. It's like YEAH ... I do it all. So is there anyone out there who is in the same boat as me? Does anyone know where I can find decent coverage in case something happens to me while skydiving? I am also looking for a decent life insurance plan if anyone has any information it would be greatly appreciated. I cannot and will not skydive without insurance and I am hoping to not have to pay more than $150 a month $200 max. I'm 30, non-smoker in excellent health, no prior or pre-existing problems/hospitalizations anything except for pregnancy and labor. Thanks and blue skies. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

*** Maybe not enough. Because it was needed. So you feel bad, and now you are changing sides? No wonder you like Kerry. (Atleast you can admit you changed sides however) Yet you show no PROOF, and just speak the Dem partyline..Whats your source www.kerry.com?Quote Here are some sources for you to go do some more reading: http://search.epnet.com/direct.asp?an=9205420&db=afh Blood, Oil & Iraq Newsweek;3/10/2003 "American Apocalypse" Nation;12/22/2003 "War on Truth" New Statesman; 8/4/2003 http://web10.epnet.com/DeliveryPrintSave.asp?tb=1&_ug=dbs=afh=fic=2=sid=5AB328D... "Making the Case" U.S. News and World Report;2/10/2003 "Bush and Blair deceived us about the reasons for going to war, but they deceived themselves about its impact on Iraq" New Statesman;8/4/2003 http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/01/105146.php "US Preparing for Military Draft in Spring 2005" http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html http://www/informationclearinghouse.info/article5146.htm http://www.hslda.org/Legislation/National/2003/S89/default.asp?PrinterFriendly=True "Bush and Blair squeak through." National Review; 2/23/2004 http://search.epnet.com/direct.asp?an=12208742&db=afh "World support for war recedes." USA Today; Sept. 18, 2002 Let me know if you need any more

***This is to design an effective border patrol system so that anyone trying to flee the country to dodge the draft will be stopped or end up in Levenworth. QuoteGood send the chicken shit slimeball fuckers to jail. Really? How about sending a 24 year old single Mom who was getting ready to graduate college in one more year to start a career she worked so hard to achieve by attending undergrad and graduate school for 6 years. You are telling me that you think it is fair that before she is able to graduate our President should have the right to say to her, guess what, you are not going to be allowed to finish your education and fulfill your dreams ... you are allowed to finish this semester and then we are sending you to Iraq. You were close to getting your degree? WE DON'T CARE. You have a child to raise and a family who needs you? WE DON'T CARE. You are not in agreement with this war or that it is justified? WE DON'T CARE. See you in Iraq. Furthermore, you can call me a chicken shit slimeball fucker if you please but if it were me, I would run for the hills before they sent me or do whatever it took to stay home with my family. If I fit into your description of chicken shit slimeball fucker, so be it. I'd rather be that than come back home to my three year old daughter in a body bag. I would tell Bush to go to hell. My three year old daughter needs me more than Iraq does. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

***You have PROOF he lied? Or are you just lying? Cause Like I have said before if you can PROVE he lied...Then I'll do what I can to impeach him...And unless you can PROVE it...Then when you say he lied...You are lying. QuoteWell Ron, I don't need to lie about Bush's political scandals you see because I read. I read beyond the media garbage spewed out to keep the majority blissfully ignorant who are fine to keep believing the propaganda. Even though I didn't vote for Bush, he had my support to go to war with Iraq at the time and I felt he and Colin Powell were strong leaders doing their jobs and looking out for "America's" best interests. You know what? So did most of America. Why? Because we had just been attacked and the either misinformed or politically corrupted media led us to believe that we needed to stop Saddam from his weapons of mass destruction and continued terrorism because we were at risk. It really isn't difficult to get to the bottom of the truth if you are willing to take the time to research, learn and read. To seek out the information which may not necessarily be the easiest to obtain (the kind you buy in Newsweek or your local newsstand). But a little bit of time and research on your own and some common sense can do wonders to show what our government is up to. Frankly, I have had enough and I am angry that I supported this war when it was initiated. I supported it because I too was duped into believing Bush and his administration. So was Blair and he too will suffer the consequences with his country. Now if you need some sources to read to be able to come to your own conclusion that Bush is a big fat liar only interested in his own power I can and will gladly supply you with those. But if you think I am making all of this up as a lie to try and prove or get something out of it, WRONG. I have nothing to prove, nothing to gain from stating my opinion and the facts which I have read myself in this forum, other than the hope that others who read these posts will not just aptly follow the herd. I am hoping they will seek out the information for themselves. America has a problem with apathy, especially the younger crowd when many of the decisions made will target and affect that very group of citizens. Many of those people are posting right now in these forums. Some are my friends and I only hope people will try to find the truth for themselves. It seems so minor, just one vote, just one voice at election time, but it is the only power they own which may prevent their own disaster. I have said in other posts and forums, I am not going to war. I am too old (30) and am the last surviving parent of my only child. But many of my friends are between 18-26 who post here and it may not have hit home for them yet but it has for many American families and it has for me as my roommate who is in the Reserves is being deployed over to Iraq and has to leave her 3 year old son for a minimum of 2 years with the Guard. The only thing I want to say is THINK. Peace and Blue skies. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

B1JerCat, Your sig line made me laugh. Thanks, I needed that! Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

If it was me, I'd be thinking, You're a moron and your dad skydives like a turkey. But I don't think that will win you any brownie points with the Pres. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

*** You have not shown any lies...And I'd rathe have Bush than a guy like Kerry how does everything for political power..Including agreeing with BOTH sides of issues.Quote Well where would you like me to start? I think that by knowing darn well there were never any weapons of mass destruction and because Bush knew he somehow needed to find a way to gain public support to go to war with Iraq, he publicized and propagandized that we were at risk from Saddam's WMDs for the purpose of trying to control and capitalize on the oil in the Middle East, etc. etc. etc. That is the start of a big enough lie to piss me off. This war was based on greed and power. Granted Saddam should have been taken out and maybe as the world's only superpower we should have led that battle (with the support of the UN and help from the rest of the world primarily because he was an immoral dictator) but the way George Bush went about doing it was WRONG. It was a very BAD choice. He went on World Television broadcasting his Countdown to War, giving Iraq and Saddam a time limit to relinquish their "weapons of mass destruction" before we started bombing the hell out of them. And when David Kay resigns from head of the National Securities Council after stating there was no imminent threat and our intelligence finds there never were any WMDs... Ooops! Sorry, but like I said in my earlier post. Go ahead and vote for Bush. But don't be surprised and don't say I didn't tell you so when you get sent off to war and more bodies come home in body bags cause this war isn't going to end anytime soon. In fact it just got worse. We're already up to almost 2,000 dead people. And go ahead and believe Bush again when he said he plans on this all being over with in June. If we pull out by June, we have probably created a more dangerous situation then there was to begin with. Furthermore maybe you can explain to me why we are still sending so many of our National Guard soldiers to Iraq and they are being told that they can expect to be away from their families for at least 2 years? There are obviously still some major contradictions going on with President Bush and his administration. America stood behind it's president during a time when we were attacked and made to feel vulnerable, not something a strong and powerful nation like America handles very well. It was the perfect opportunity for Bush to appeal to public emotion and convince us that going to war with Iraq was what was necessary to protect and serve "OUR" country and our country's best interests. Point blank, we were lied to. Answer me this, why were and are we so focused on the "terrorist" Saddam Hussein and fighting over in Iraq as a priority when Osama Bin Laden is most likely somewhere near the Afghanistan/Pakistan border? Furthermore ... WE CAUGHT SADDAM. Why are we sending so many more troops over there? All I can say is wake up people! *** Problem is you don't know WHAT Kerry is going to do with you...He says whatever is popular at that second. Quote Well I can tell you what Bush has in store for the American people. Just look up Bills HR 163 and S 89. Read about the $28 million dollars which has already been added to the 2004 Selective Service System to prepare for the military draft as early as June 15, 2005 (after the election). Read about the "Smart Border Declaration" signed by Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs, John Manley and U.S. Homeland Security Director, Gov. Tom Ridge. This is to design an effective border patrol system so that anyone trying to flee the country to dodge the draft will be stopped or end up in Levenworth. You may be asking yourself who is the lesser of two evils? We already know that Bush is a deceptive liar who didn't even make it into office fairly, why not give someone else a try? Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

I'd vote for ya Vinnie, eventhough our political views differ and you are a strict Republican . I still think the country would be okay with you as Pres. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

George Bush will get my vote when pigs fly. And I hope those of you who are planning on voting for Bush are okay with being lied to over and over by an administration as corrupt as his (don't get me started). Also, if you are voting for Bush and between the ages of 18-26 whether you are in the military or not, I hope you are ready to go off to war because that is exactly where he intends to send you. Peace and Blue Skies. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Reaaaallllly? When is that happening? I don't have plans for that one, it is all the way in Montana How about Rantoul? I am most likely going to be there for the WFFC. I was there last year and let me tell ya It was ALL GOOD. I hope you guys come to the midwest soon. There are some great DZs out this way and the sunsets and white puffies in the summer and springtime are some of the most beautiful skies around. Miss ya guys! (and gals) Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."