diverdriver

Just as an aside: during the record in 1998 I was giving 36 seconds between green light and actual launch. The pilot should be timing the climb out as part of where to put them out. Chris

You are counting on vertical seperation if you put freefliers (freaks) our first unless you give TONS of seperation time which most people don't understand. If you tell the whole load the same seperation count this will work with a few adjustments. What if your head down group has a premature deployment? Then an RW group can float over the top and through that canopy. Many Flat flyers also deploy lower (this is a generalization not intended to slam anyone) 2-3k. I find a lot of freeflyers deploy above 3k. This can cause problems if counting on the vertical seperation. I don't know, if a guy with blue hair, piercing in every identifiable part of his body, and tumbles intentionally as he goes out the door isn't considered a "freak" I don't know what is. Relax, I free fly too. Chris

1) I don't struggle to get an otter out on one pass. I do it with a lot of ease actually. 2) Measure yourself crosswise and then across the chest. What is the percent change? 3) I have plenty of freefly jumps and I do fine thanks for asking. 4) My apologies for not giving better physics or "proof". Sometimes I forget not everyone knows me and takes what I say at face value. But I have been doing this for awhile. Think about doing a two way head down. Now, are you presenting you back to the wind the whole dive? Or did you turn sideways at some point? If you turned then you are in the same relative posistion as a flat flyer. No change in my book. But you can actually over analyze this. You are correct. More time is better. But then there's a point of diminishing returns. You want perfect safety? Don't jump. Otherwise, look at what is going on, set some guidelines, and then adjust for special cases. That's the best you can do in any acivity you do that involves high risk such as skydiving. Chris

Yes, it can work if you understand how the transition between freaks to flats work. Doing the crosswind jumprun is a great way to do it. But don't count on vertical seperation to get you your safety margin. Free fliers do not present a larger cross-section to the wind contrary to popular belief. And if they do it's negligable because they are alway spinning or changing their presentation. The driving factor in all the drift is the freefall time. It's physics. And no, your raging debate is not inflamatory. We all need to talk about this so everyone understands what is going on. Chris Schindler ATP/CFII D-19012 www.DiverDriver.com

Just remember that horizontal seperation is what is going to save your life. I would put Hybrid dives where sit flyers go. If a dive is totally sit then it won't fall as fast as head downers so it will actually have a little more drift. Since a hybrid dive usually involves more than the usual 2-3 way train then it will probably be out first in the freaks order and thus keeps seperation nicely anyway. Does that work for you? Chris

To bad you're not coming out to Winter Expo because Professor John is going to be doing a talk on freefall drift with a Power Point presentation. It's really cool. Chris

Ok, understood.

Not on my load buddy. My reputation speaks for itself. Chris

I've done this at Skydive Chicago for years. Works great. That's how I get 11 groups of two on the airport every time with one jumprun. It involves a crosswind Jump run if winds permit. It can give great seperation also. I've written about it at my website. Chris Schindler http://www.DiverDriver.com

It is possible. I do it all the time. It is safe. Chris Schindler

All of your points are valid and good questions and I don't have the carpel tunnel strength to really do justice to answer all your questions. One I would like to highlight is that low time jumpers are so overwhelmed by all the info they get in the beginning. There is no way for them to have all the answers to everything. That's why we do this here. It's ok to get more knowledge as you go. It is not criminal that you didn't get all these intricacies during student training. Student training gets you through survival. Your A license lets you learn more. I certainly didn't learn everything I needed to know about flying jumpers during my commercial training. That's why it's called continuing education. The seminars, "SafetyDay", "Winter Expo", "PD The Search" all are there to confirm, ratify, enforce what you know and build it further. The spotting guidelines I give here apply to most people/groups most all of the time to keep you safe. If you go outside these guidelines then you need to know more or at least ask more questions (which you are doing here). Chris Schindler ATP/CFII D-19012 www.DiverDriver.com Chris Schindler

Yes, exactly. Just letting people know that there was a scientific approach to all this stuff. Chris

Um, ok, I hate explaining jokes but before I get labeled with something....... The post talked about Americans and Canadians.....now follow....I'm a patriot....with me so far.....and my mom is from Canada......that's where the joke is......get it?.....connection?....he he, ha ha? Oh nevermind. Chris

Um, ok, I hate explaining jokes but before I get labeled with something....... The post talked about Americans and Canadians.....now follow....I'm a patriot....with me so far.....and my mom is from Canada......that's where the joke is......get it?.....connection?....he he, ha ha? Oh nevermind. Chris

[america the beautiful playing] I love patriotism. I am so proud to be an American and my mom is from Canada. [needle scratching vinyl record] Wait. My mom walking around naked in the neighborhood. Oh bad thought!! Bad thought!!! Get out of my head!!!! Geeez, thanks a lot! Chris

[america the beautiful playing] I love patriotism. I am so proud to be an American and my mom is from Canada. [needle scratching vinyl record] Wait. My mom walking around naked in the neighborhood. Oh bad thought!! Bad thought!!! Get out of my head!!!! Geeez, thanks a lot! Chris

Now, not suggesting that this is the way it needs to be done but when all of this freefall drift stuff was figured out there was a "minimum" seperation between groups at opening that had to be attained for "minimum" safety. That distance was 300 feet. This is considering two jumpers opening facing directly at each other and in full flight. From a studying on human reaction in flying, it was figured that three (3) seconds was the minimum time required to recognize there was a collision threat, decide how you were going to avoid that collision, and then do the maneuver to avoid the collision. Using a chart like mine should give you much more than 3 seconds or 300 feet of seperation. ALSO REMEMBER, it's the groundspeed that's important. Knowing the winds aloft is nice but unless you know what True Airspeed (and it's affected by altitude, temperature, and pressure) the plane is flying it's hard to do the mental math to figure the estimated ground speed on your own. Using a GPS is the easiest, most accurate way to get that groundspeed reading. I've been on the receiving end of a flat flyer floating over me and opening on the other side of me in freefall. It is very scary. Cool jumpsuit = 300 bucks Rig = 4,500 bucks Good GPS = 500 bucks Situational Awareness = PRICELESS

Ok, I know I've posted this chart before but I'll put it up again. It is all based on groundspeed. This groundspeed is easily read from a GPS. Ok, let's not argue about using GPS for spotting. But you have to admit that getting the current and exact groundspeed from a GPS is a handy tool in the subject of this thread. Groundspeed: 100+ knots = 5 seconds between exits NOT 5 seconds then start climbing out. 90 - 100 = 8 seconds between exits. 80 - 90 = 12 - 15 seconds 70 - 80 = 15 - 20 seconds less than 70 = 20 seconds + 20 - 30 knots = 45 seconds The lowest groundspeed I've seen in the Otter is 17 knots. 50 SECONDS between exits. Man that was crazy. Now, this is a chart that I use between small groups to medium (4-8 ways). If you change the diciplines or group sizes then adjustments need to be made to the times. Use your heads. Flats first largest to smallest, Freaks largest to smallest, high pullers, students, then tandems. I have never had a problem with this order and it works in all wind conditions except when you start with a downwind jump run. Anything else? www.DiverDriver.com the jump pilot resource Chris Schindler ATP/CFII D-19012 www.DiverDriver.com

Mark, you are SOOO done now. Grumpysmurf. Bahahahahaha. TF #50 DiverDriver. Chris

Mark, you are SOOO done now. Grumpysmurf. Bahahahahaha. TF #50 DiverDriver. Chris

Oh come on Lisa! You couldn't have given in to my PM that easily!!! Oh wait, this is sarcastic post? Oh drat. Chris

I'm there on Thursday through Sunday. Chris

I'm there on Thursday through Sunday. Chris

The cockpit? What is it? Well, that's the room the pilots sit in at the front of the plane, but that's not important right now. AIRPLANE!!!!!!!!!! Thank you.

Pammi, well put. And points taken. Sometimes we need a reminder of this. But "me" is the only one I can control. Thank you. Chris