diverdriver

Is that a Cessna you are refering too? On a Twin Otter the door is much behind the wing and would not work. Also, we are dropping from 14K so any use of the floor for "level" would be incorrect since the pitch of the aircraft can be as much as 5 degrees. I have not read the letter in Parachutist so I will hold further comment until I do. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

I have also seen how the risers are layed in the channel when packed that can put pressure on the tab and cause it to pop out. It might be something to try before opening a reserve. Chris

My condolences. Chris

$41 for the chopper at Summer Fest. $25 bucks registration or $10 bucks per day. Gonna stop in for just a couple days jumping? Pay daily. Chris

Jessica thanks! Chris

WOOOOOSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! A what? Chris

WHAT???!!!!! You don't know???!!!!! They are done with test dummies. C23d describes it. I would imagine that PIA has much more info on it. Chris

In defense of the controllers...yes....it was probably a "deal" as they say in the biz. But the Chicago Center controllers who work our sector are probably my favorite controllers in the country. I've flown at DZs from one coast to the other so I've gotten to experience first hand different operations. We just had one that sent an airliner off the arrival and put him across the DZ when we were about to drop. The jump pilot recognized the developing conflict and held the jumpers. The controller felt so bad that he drove out the DZ to personally apologize. So we made him stay for the barbecue that night and I bought him a beer. This whole system is set up with human beings. We all have to be vigilant because WE (as humans) are the weakest link in the whole thing. So we weren't angry at the controller. Our jump pilot did his job and backed up the controller who cut it a bit close. Professionals back each other up. They don't expect the other to cover the other. We normally didn't pick up our IFR flight plan until we had all 12 together in 1998 so I can't say if they were on that plan at the time of the incident. BUT.....they didn't just pop up on the scene at 15,000. It still should not have happened. That's for sure. Chris

I would if I thought the Chicago Tribune was going to do it right this time. But....as it has been pointed out....this article was after Roger DID talk to them to straighten some things out. They are on a mission and I don't think I care to add to their fuel. I post here so that you all know what I know. That seems more important to me. Roger will have to deal with the paper on his own terms. He is the buisness owner. He is also a pilot and can explain all these things to them himself. The Tribune seems to disregard what is being said though. But, yes...I have thought about it. Chris

Putting 12 planes in a formation for dropping is a difficult task at best. (one comment: I was not a pilot on this camp. I was a jumper. I was chief pilot on the record in 1998. So I am drawing from what we did in 98 to explain what I think happened.) We would take off in waves. Slow climbers first. Then the Super Otters. ATC said that they did not want transponders on each aircraft because it would clutter up their screen and they would get all kinds of warnings. They said that we should have one xpndr per group once we were within on mile of each other and 1,000 feet vertically. I imagine that is what they did. Their TCAS saw the group leader. ATC was aware that othe planes would be in the proximate area of that leader. We also briefed that we would be flying wider patterns than usually since it is harder to make a bunch of turns with 12 airplanes or get groups together with a million turns. The briefings with ATC started months before the camp took place. Why this seemed to be a surprise for the individual ATC specialist I don't know. There were no less than 3 controllers from Center here at the DZ during the event. I never heard one bad word. In 98 they put a "stale ring" around us of 15 miles. That's wider than the nuke plants got after 9/11. Why this controller let this aircraft come that close or not tell the formation group to turn I don't know. In 98 I heard several jets get vectored away from us and the pilots asked to be vectored over so they could see it. The controllers refused. I don't have an explanation why this happened this time. It wasn't anything new. Chris

We have standard "squak" codes (codes in the transponders) that we've used at SDC since 1993 when it opened. We fly a box pattern out to the west to about 4 or 6k then south then east then into the airport on jumprun or circle around for a south run. When we have to do a south run we limit how far north we go by about 1.5 miles unless ATC says "there's no one out there". Which they do often. We call out of 3 grand and then call 2 minutes and jumpers away. The controllers that have ridden along with me said they appreciated the standard pattern we flew so they always knew where we were going. The DZ is marked on their radar screen. And they are all briefed on how busy we can be. Normally we have 2 super otters running but during special events we've had 4 or 5 turbines going with a helicopter doing low loads. It's like a ski lift. The chair lift goes up the same side of the mountain all the time. Chris ok....i think i'm really done with this thread this time.

And thus......out of all this mess......someone speaks up and says that he learned something. It was all worth while then. Even though the intent of the original post was for something different. Ok......I think I'm done with this thread. You can only kick a dead horse so many times before your foot gets sore. Chris

LOL.....Touche! Chris

Paul, SDC is NOT in Class A,B,C,or D airspace. Just wanted to make that clear if anyone was wondering. Chris

Not to put too fine a point on it, but ATC's first job is to separate IFR traffic from one another. Any time ATC deals with VFR traffic it is as workload allows. In VMC, VFR traffic is always responsible for its' own separation even from IFR traffic, even if the IFR traffic is in IMC. BTW, if the IFR traffic is in VMC, they also must share the burden for their own separation. You do not have to take my word for this, contact anyone working in ATC. Paul, skydiving is the ONLY VFR operation required to talk to ATC to do what it does. That makes us pretty much "IFR". We can't drop unless we are talking to them and they are talking to us. I've circled more than once waiting for a controller to get back to me. I am very much aware of the rules of ATC. And if they don't make an attempt to "seperate" traffic then it is just as morally wrong for them. There are three options to seperate jump traffic from ALL other traffic. 1. Tell the jump plane not to drop. 2. Tell the other aircraft to deviate left or right of course around the DZ (horizontal seperation is the only seperation). 3. Do not let the other aircraft descend below the jump plane's altitude until it is past. There should NEVER be a near miss between jumpers/jumpships/other aircraft. Does it happen? Yes. Because these three rules were not utilized. You can see for yourself ALL of the ASRS reports be going to the link I posted earlier. It is there for public viewing. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Name another DZ that does that. I rest my case.....probably won't happen. Chris

It was front page. Chris

AggieDave, I think you (and many others) have a misconception of what "airspace" airliners use. Airliners use it ALL. And yes, skydivers can jump through "Class B" airspace. [EDITED FOR CLARITY: SDC DOES NOT JUMP THROUGH CLASS B AIRSPACE] Class B airspace is that area around our largest/buisiest airports in the nation. Skydive Las Vegas does it all the time. They coordinate with the controllers there to get access to the airspace for altitude. And there is nothing wrong with it. Skydive Monterey Bay drops through Class C (a little less restrictive than Class B and not as wide) for dropping on their main DZ. I happen to be one of the professional pilots who have flown at SDC and I take GREAT exception with what was written there. It implies that near misses at other DZs are SDCs fault by putting it in the same article continuing on about Ron's death. All you people who say that "if ya gotta die, then you hope you go while skydiving" should really think about that statement. Look at the results. Look at what it does to our sport. "You gotta die sometime so why not?" BULLSHIT!!!!!!!! You don't have the right to leave the living with this mess! Chris Schindler

The Bradford 3 is just more than 4 miles NW of SDC. The arrivals come through there at 15,000 usually but can come through as low as 12,000. It makes them much easier to see and avoid (since we ARE VFR) flying skydivers. I don't think people understand that skydiving is the ONLY VFR operation required by FAR to be in contact with ATC to do what we do. There should NEVER be a near miss between jumpers/jumpships/and airliners. We all have transponders. We should all be in contact with ATC. And ATC knows where each of us is going. It just shouldn't happen given a little education and due consideration. Now you talk about the Motif 2 arrival across Joliet (JOT) VOR. It is standard for them to cross 5 SW of JOT at 6,000. That is right near Morris Airport on the west side. I believe the "near miss" described in the article came from a NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System (ASRS) report which can be found on page 89-91 at this LINK. They were given the common clearance to cross JOT. When aircraft come by SDC on the Bradford 3 they do NOT go to JOT. They go direct ORD (O'Hare) VOR from BDF (Bradford). Read the last line of the airline reporter. I would say this is the quote they are using in the article. I would say that it is being insinuated that SDC is the dropzone at fault for this when I seriously disagree. And we have a skydiver to thank for that misinformation given to the Tribune. When I was flying full time at SDC I had controllers ride right seat about 2-3 times per year. They all thought we did a fine job flying in the airspace around SDC. To say there were never any problems isn't true either. We've had planes come through the airspace headed for Oshkosh every July. I've had to circle waiting to drop on many occasions. Through coordination with ATC and the jumpers in the back looking down I'd say we've done a good job keeping safe. But I guess you'll have to take my word for it since I have no "Gold star certificates" with Chicago Center's signature on it for doing what is right. Chris Schindler

My condolences...... Chris

The Accidents Section of www.DiverDriver.com has been updated. About 10 reports were added through the years 1990-1994. And the last jump plane Ferry accident was added to This Years list. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Bill, it's like this. You need to picture two brothers. One older and bigger. One younger and smaller. The older brother has the younger brother by his hand and is making him slap himself in the face saying "Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!" Anyone else see it that way? Chris

Well, they had all the half year numbers displayed at the BOD meeting. Anyone could go. I don't think they are hiding anything. The museum: from what I was hearing is that the museum would be near by and IS going to be paid for by donations and other income. Some could probably correct me if that wrong but I believe that it does NOT come from the membership dues to build the museum. Benefit: People go the Washington D.C. area to view all kinds of museums. Smithsonians, etc....I can't think of a better place to put it. And yah, I think it's a good idea. My opinion. Oh, and at the meeting they described that the general staff has been reduced over the past year and others have taken pay cuts. Chris Needles said the staff would do whatever it could to help continue reducing the debt (which was reduced by 100 G's by the way) in the coming years. Chris

I can't say the math for sure. But....I sat at many of the meetings and I did hear from many members that expenses had to be minimized to the max to protect the income they had from the membership. So...at least....they were giving lip service to being physcally responsible. And I felt they were genuine about what they were saying. Again, my opinion from sitting at the meetings. Chris

The way I saw it explained, and it seemed resonable, was that in the long run it would save money for the membership. I've heard for awhile that they are maxed out on space in the current building. Plus.....insurance IS skyrocketing all over the place and postage IS going up. Again, I'd say it's reasonable. Chris