LyraM45

+1. If this was such a bad road how come other host DZ's never had to charge more for the competitors to compete like you propose? How come this was never an issue before with other host DZ's or with the USPA who is the governing organization behind this competition. Again, this is NOT "Spaceland National Skydiving Competition." It just seems to me like everything you stated above was trying to be twisted to seem like this was benefiting the USPA and skydivers/competitors when in reality the only people having anything to do with this or benefiting from it is Skydive Spaceland. Also the fact that the marketing firm is just Skydive Spaceland under a different name for terms of marketing can put all and any earlier posts that maybe the marketer was behind this and made Spaceland enter this agreement. Anybody who knows anything about the personality of this dz knew where this was coming from the whole time. Trust me everyone get's you dont like spaceland and you jump at another local houston DZ. At least tell people your intention's. I haven't said anything about your "opinion's" yet but you keep ragging spaceland. You and everyone else keep talking about other national's not doing this.... well I dont know of any other national's that has faced these challenges. The economy is the worst it has been in what 80 years. maybe that has something to do with it. If you or anyone else thinks it can be done better then put your $ where your mouth is! What...... You dont want to? Then shut up! Disclamer...... I dont jump at any houston DZ on a regualer basis. I have jumped at Spaceland 2 diff. times, but i have nothing against any houton DZ's. All I have is an opinion. If you dont like that opinion i dont give a shit! Just like I dont give a shit what any of the spaceland guy's think about me. But I do know buis. just like they do. I would be ragging on the other dz if this was what they were doing. Trust me. I try to keep an independent fram of mine. There are plenty of people down at spaceland whom I love and get along with. I live close to that dz, gave it its fare shot, and I felt like my discipline fit better at the other dz. Even so, if the tables were turned and the other dz was doing exactly this, my opinion and outrage would be EXACTLY the same. This is not personal. **edited to add-- You clearly state you have an opinion too. Good for you. I'm not stooping to your level and telling you to shut up. No matter what side of the issue anybody is on this I think they should voice their opinion and be heard. I'm glad you're contributing because this organization and this competition is made up of our voices and our concerns. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

+1. If this was such a bad road how come other host DZ's never had to charge more for the competitors to compete like you propose? How come this was never an issue before with other host DZ's or with the USPA who is the governing organization behind this competition. Again, this is NOT "Spaceland National Skydiving Competition." It just seems to me like everything you stated above was trying to be twisted to seem like this was benefiting the USPA and skydivers/competitors when in reality the only people having anything to do with this or benefiting from it is Skydive Spaceland. Also the fact that the marketing firm is just Skydive Spaceland under a different name for terms of marketing can put all and any earlier posts that maybe the marketer was behind this and made Spaceland enter this agreement. Anybody who knows anything about the personality of this dz knew where this was coming from the whole time. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

I'm sure he will be. For the most part that is still his primary thing, and then every now and then I make him come out and freefly with me. (In reality I am just the freefly equivalent of Purple Mike and I am making him whore his photographer skills out for my freestyle. lol, that's funny, but I'm not as bad as Mike..... really!) Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

Uuhhh.... did you miss the fact that there was a new women's formation record as well as a men's formation record at a "womens event?" You might have heard of it-- it's called Jump For The Cause! I think most women wouldn't care that there are men's records. I think most men wouldn't care that there are women's records. The only way I see one group being bothered is if it were only exclusive to that one group and the other group wasn't allowed to have their event. If there are women's records, men can have records, if there are gay records, then there can be straight records, etc. (though I know the world is not that perfect, as was mentioned by somebody that if there was a "white miss america" contest people would have an uproar.) Get over it. I think you're making a big deal out of nothing. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

let me guess, going to Embry Riddle online? That's the program I am in right now for online grad school and each teacher seems to have their own interpertation to how they want their APA paper format. Drives me bonkers. I thought that was the whole reason behind having a set format??? WTF?? UGH!!! **Edited to add: I was already having a hard enough time writing to begin with because A.) my undergrad was in aviation meteorology which was mostly sciences/math like thermo, calcs, diff EQ, etc. (took like one writing class my fresh year, so my writing was really not that well practiced), and B.) what little writing I did do when I wasn't doing pages and pages of derivations for my undergrad was all done in MLA format, so yea, I was a little screwed when I got to the ERAU online grad program and it was not only APA, but it is whatever each teachers' definition of APA is!! Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

I have a 15-20 page grad research paper due on Oct 20th that I haven't even started yet. I usually spend the whole time before doing research here and there, but don't really sit down and begin writing until the 7-10 day mark since I work best under pressure. So, yes, I have been there plenty of times at 3am, coffee in hand, working the last bit on my paper that is due for my 8am class. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

I think Matt and I will be out. I work a midnight shift on Thurs night and get off Friday morning, so after a few hours sleep hopefully we can roll out. I def. need to get in on some spaceball stuff! PS-- I'm sure there will be tons there to do, but Simon is reason enough to come out to this boogie. Maybe he'll even dress up in his speedo!!! Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

The first man I ever really felt I could say I was "in love" with did exactly this to me. I am a pretty strong girl. Strong enough to keep up with the boys and smart enough to not let a guy in that I know is going to crap on me, hence why it wasn't until I was 22 until I met and felt for said man above. So, he met me at a boogie while he was in the states on vacay from overseas. Text book perfect. Text book prince charming. Was too good to be true until I went to stay with him over the summer between semesters. The second I got off of the plane, it was somebody I didn't know. He became very verbally and emotionally abusive, and it started almost the moment he picked me up at the airport. Just like he knew he had me trapped over there, 5000 miles from home, and he flipped the prince charming switch off and showed his true colors. So, anywho... I remember the good stuff, the price charming stuff, which is what really makes me miss him in a way. At the same time, I remember the bad stuff and also remember that I was extremely hurt and troubled by my experience with this man. It was the first and only time I was ever that wrong about somebody. They put on such a good act and I was really mad at myself or a long time that I didn't see through that. It is the only man that I have ever dated in my entire adult life that I am not now good friends with. All of my ex SO's became people that I can talk to and go out and catch up with without it being weird. I love being able to do that. I don't like it when things are weird between people or when there is friction. I guess I am a natural libra when it comes to that stuff. This wasn't a terribly long situation, about 6 months, so that is a little aside from what the OP was asking for. I am glad I had the experience to learn from and grow from, and it's silly to say I should thank him for that, but at the same time, yea-- no so much. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

It's premature to say that yet (as of 10/6/09), since the Nationals will take place on 10/12/09-10/25/09. Give the feedback - if any - a chance to come in. There's also the open issue of whether this might have a chilling effect on sponsorships in the future. That may take months, or even until the 2010 Nationals, for sufficient data to come in. Exactly. I had mentioned earlier that majority of the people will not be effected at this years nationals. Maybe there won't be anybody that will be directly effected. I agree, there really aren't a whole lot of teams that walk around handing out stickers, brochures, or anything. We also can't assume that there won't be anybody effected. That's as gross as saying yes there definitely will be people effected. The fact is the opportunity for people to be effected is there. We can't predict the future, and if anything else, its the principal of the whole thing. It's also been mentioned that there are a few people on here voicing their concerns when they have nothing to do with this years comp, but the future is exactly my point-- I am competing next year, so your damn right I am concerned about what is going on this year and if this will be the future of nationals. (though I doubt that so long as it's being held at another dz). This is OUR competition shaped by OUR concerns and voices, so right on for the people who are getting involved, and boo for the people trying to crap on that, IMO. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

I asked EXACTLY for this about two pages ago. It has been asked by me not once, but twice actually, and yet when they come on they don't take the opportunity to give the answers and clear the air and answer all of the questions that have been posted on here. Balls in their court as far as I'm concerned. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

I'm not griping. I think it's great if thats what they choose to do, but what I am saying is look at what other DZ's have done in the past and what kind of "extra charge" they had to charge that you're talking about because they did not have a sponsor agreement and also buffed up for nationals. Nobody said they thought Nationals were paying for all of this. That is exactly my point. A few posts up somebody sited that spaceland put the bid in for nationals and was well aware of the costs associated with, as other dropzones in the past have, so now here they are. You should do some research and see what events and businesses I have been involved with before you insinuate that I or anybody else doesn't have an idea what goes into something of this magnitude. Also, you never really answered my theory-- why didn't other dropzones in the past have to charge this extra amount that you are talking about that spaceland would have to charge without the sponsor agreement? Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

Then by this reasoning all of the nationals in the past that didn't have this sponsor agreement should have had to charge more for the competitors to come and compete. I don't think they did, so what is the change now? They wouldn't have to charge more to attend, just as past nationals hasn't because other venues did not go over board and build shiny new everything and hangars that look like they are on steriods. Will that make for a nicer venue for the comp? Sure it will. Will they be able to use those facilities for a lot of events after this that will be for their own personal profit? Sure it will. Will they be able to market their DZ better with said new facilities and theoretically be able to bring more money in down the road off of it at their own future boogies and events? Probably. Should the competitors foot the bill for all of that or they or their sponsors be punished because they are not footing the bill for all of that? IMO, hell no. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

Agreed. And from another post up from the world level competitor,I am really glad that somebody threw that into the mix here because I have been saying in my post that there is a good chance that the vast majority, and maybe eve all of the competitors might not be effected by it, but then again what if there happens to be that one team or two teams that are? The chance is still there. But for the most part, I agree, it will probably end up being a non issue for most and it comes down to the principal of the thing. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

Bringing a team to Nationals is not cheap. The return you can expect on your investment when you send yourself to Nationals is having a good time, and developing yourself as a skydiver. Both of which are great things, neither of which pays the bills. As such, many jumpers rely on sponsorship to offset some of the costs, making it within their budgets to train, travel and compete. When you limit their ability to attract sponsorship, you limit their ability to train, travel and compete. Would you agree that a jumper with 50 team jumps is at a disadvantage to the jumper with 100 team jumps? That's what happens when the DZO pulls your team rate, you end up with fewer jumps, and that takes points off the board. So if you spend your money on training, and can't afford the travel or lodging, you're not there - you're not scoring points. Of course if you train and travel, but cannot afford the resistration or competition jumps, again, it's zeros across the board. You have to remember that nobody competing at Nationals is a paid athlete. They are all digging into their own pockets in one way or another to be there. Getting a few sponsorship dollars can often make the difference between going, or just reading about it in the magazine. And really, most jumpers going to Nationals are spending 100% of they can to be there. If they can afford $3000 to train, travel and compete, and they get a deal from the DZ that saves them $500 on training jumps, they're not going to reduce their investment by $500, they'll just crank out another $500 worth of jumps. It's a shitty thing to do, limiting what little offset they can get, to improve the bottom line of the DZ. The same DZ that bid for Nationals, and said we can do it for 'X', is now trying to do for 'X' minus the cost of these exclusive advertising dollars. You bid for it, you got what you wanted, now deal with what you have. Thank you, thank you, thank you!! VERY well said. Everything I have been trying to put together into words but I feel like it hasn't come across as clear as your post. This is exactly what I am getting at. That said, I feel like a very valid point is out there. The BOD met today on the issue and is trying to figure out what to do. Hopefully they can get involved and make just like every other nationals competition has been in the past and everybody can just come, have friendly competition and a kick ass experience. For people who have not called your RD yet, please do it tomorrow and voice your opinion one way or other other. Let them bring it to the table if this is being talked about right now. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

Wow... way to spin that away from the entire conversation that has been going on in this thread. Where did anybody say that not having these things are going to hurt the competitors physical flying talents? Not one person said anything even close to that, but thanks for trying. You can reread my posts above as to how this can hurt competitors and possibly keep them from competing. If you think what I said is not true, then maybe you'd like to be the representative from spaceland to come on here and outline specifically what is and what isn't allowed. For example, if I am a competitor with a sponsor that funded me for nationals with the intent (and possibly a written contract) that I was going to at least have their logo on my team packing tent, then tell me what I am supposed to do in this situation where my sponsor says, "oh, you can't show our logo like we agreed, so I would like all of my money back that I put in towards your training and I am not funding anything further for the actual competition itself." We can get into a side debate on weather that sponsor is being a little harsh,but it doesn't quite matter because this situation is very possible since the sponsor has this right to fund or not fund or to sponsor and not sponsor if their athlete can not wear or use their logo as outlined in their agreement. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

Exactly what I've been trying to say. I hope so too. Exactly what I've been trying to say. Yes!!! Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

Same thing-- HUGE HUGE HUGE difference. You are comparing a private function to the USPA Nationals. Keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges if you are going to reach for those comparisons. OK, change up the parameters. (hypothetical) Say I walked on to SDA during Nationals last year and wanted to put up windblades. I volunteered for four days of the event and spent several hours before the event. I want to put up a windblade, but didn't ask in advance. I'm volunteering for what effectively worked out for the whole event, including several thousand dollars in gear. Should I be permitted to put up a windblade on SDU's property? Keep in mind, I'm not a competitor, but I've put every bit as much time and money into this event as most competitors, certainly as much as any pickup team does/did. I am entirely positive I could not. Again, I understand people being upset/angry/bothered by the new position of USPA/Spaceland, as it doesn't seem to have been communicated very well (if at all, prior to the announcement of Nationals). But...in the world in which I work, this sort of thing is entirely common. Minor differences, but the size of the events are similar, memberships are similar, etc. I'd like to better understand where the actual tort lies vs what people *think* is wrong. Is there actually a stipulation in a sponsorship contract that says "Sponsored jumper will perform XXXX at events" vs merely using, displaying, and talking about their gear in public settings? If so, I can see where there might be some interference issues. Otherwise, I'm not quite understanding the actual vs virtual problem? Do I think you should have been able to put up your banner at your video station that was helping out the national competition? Yes, I sure do. Do they have to let you? Probably not and it's only going to effect you, but to put a blanket rule out there that could possibly effect you and every competitor that could possibly stop them from competing if their sponsors pull out (and they were their primary or only form of funding for the competition.) because of this new rule (I don't think that will really happen a lot across the board, but it might which is why it needs to be talked about.). You can choose to not volunteer your time next year at the nationals if they won't let you post your banner or windblade at your video station, but these competitors can not just choose to go to nationals without a sponsor if this new rule is going to keep sponsors from sponsoring them (possibly.. like I said, this might not be true for majority.) This is not their choice. Either they have funding/sponsors, or they don't compete. You either choose to volunteer your time or you don't. It's not a matter of competition for you. BTW about the whole volunteer thing, regardless of where the windblade thing happened to you, if I owned a DZ and you were helping me out with my boogie or competition by volunteering your time or talents, I would at least have offered you the luxury of displaying your logo somewhere or handing out business cards. FWIW, I think they should have at least done that in thanks, but like I said, that is another topic not quite similar to this one. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

It does matter. There is a huge difference between a private boogie or a private function than that of the USPA National Skydiving Competition. Huge difference. If this were a private Spaceland function or boogie I don't think we would all be having this conversation. Same thing-- HUGE HUGE HUGE difference. You are comparing a private function to the USPA Nationals. Keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges if you are going to reach for those comparisons. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

I have been told I can't fly my company windblade on a DZ where I was doing significant amounts of volunteer work for the DZ during a competition. On more than one occasion. We were told that the windblade space is like "floor space" and that we'd have to pay money to display our logo. It's not new, but it's the first time I've seen it in print. Was that at a USPA Nationals event? Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

I wouldn't sign anything that detailed...I doubt anyone actually working with a sponsor gets told what color socks to wear either, but if they do, they may need an agent to negotiate for them. What if you DO plan to compete, and your sponsor tells you to whack all the other competitors on the knee with a Nextel crowbar so you can win...gonna do it? How about you do what I always do when negotiating with sponsors...tell them you will do everything conceivably possible to promote their product, within the bounds of good taste, professionalism, rules of the event and laws of the state. True, and I would totally do this if this were my personal negotiation with a sponsor for next year, especially now that I know this topic is in discussion. (I am not a professional athlete and doubt I would get a sponsor outside of a DZ discounting me jumps or something, but theoretically speaking...) But I wonder if there are any teams that are effected by this for this years comp who maybe did sign something that said they were to wear the logo and have the logo on the packing tent and stuff? Even if it effects only one team, that means a few people are going to be having a really bad week soon and they don't have to and never have in past national comps (for the particular reason in discussion). Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

My RD tells me that the BOD is discussing the matter as we speak. Okay, I don't know if he means email, or a conference call or what, but the matter is getting the attention of the BOD. So somebody at that level must think there is something to be concerned about. Exactly... this isn't just nothing. It's a big deal when due to this new "partner protection," there might be a few competitors who can not compete now because they will not be meeting sponsor agreements, some of which they've had for years at nationals in the past. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

This obviously isn't nothing, and this is obviously a problem to not only those who are competing this year, but also the whole entire community of future competitors. For example, if I was planning on competing next year (which I am) I need to pay attention to agreements if I get a sponsor so I don't find that my ass is out of the competition because of something like this. What if I sign an agreement that says my duties as a sponsored athlete include putting up a wind blade next to my tent that says, "sprint/nextel freeflyers," and have a stash of free pull up chords and bottle openers or something for people to come up and take? (we're not talking about a booth,or a table set up with the DZ. Just our packing tent.) If I was in that agreement right now before Nationals 09', which there are quite a few competitors who are and have been in similar agreements, then I would be screwed. To me that is a whole lot more than arguing over "nothing" when it could possibly mean I can not compete after months of hard training. There was no corporate american bullshit problem until this whole scenario has come into play, which is the fault of Spaceland if I had to guess. I doubt this was USPA's idea. No other DZ that has hosted nationals has had this problem until this "partner protection" things has come up this year, so the corporate american bullshit has first started here. It's funny because the end of your post is questioning if everybody has forgotten why we jump out of airplanes? I am sure everybody who is disturbed over this whole thing is asking the hosting dz the same exact question. Have they forgotten what this competition is about? The non-profit USPA Nationals that is about the competitor and everything in between just as it has been from every other hosting DZ in the past. Has the hosting DZ's motivation changed? As for the jumpers motivation I am sure it is much the same as it as always been at all the nationals in the past, hence the uproar in this thread-- they just want to show up and compete just as they always have, sponsors and all, so I am pretty sure their motivation is not the thing that has changed or is in question here. I know there are spaceland representatives, employees, managers, etc who are on these forums, so maybe one of them would like to just lay it all down (or even better, just update that website with further clarification) and specify what exactly is and isn't allowed, right down to the mom and pop team sponsored by the small business that wanted them to have pull up chords at their packing tent or something. Or the Golden Knights questions. There are a few good questions that can be addressed in the thread alone as well as much room for more elaboration in general. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

I'm independent as well and can vote both ways-- and I have. But I tend to lean more on the liberal side of a lot of issues like gay marriage, abortion, church/state, etc. But, I definitely like the fact that being an independent means I am not some ignorant straight ticket voter. I do my homework

I think that happens a lot with TS. I have heard of this with a few recent custom suits, mine included. The first one was too tight in the arms, but fine everywhere else. Took it back to the shop when I was in FL where they measured me and then redo it, and then the whole suit came back too tight except the arms, which is what it went in for in the first place. Tony makes great suits and my suit was really pretty, but from that experience I prefer a suit manufacturer that uses spandex in the crotch and arms (which is more figure friendly for females anyway) and it is TONS more comfy. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

I'm still on my centerfold high from last month. One picture was enough for me! Hell, I think I was more excited than Matt was to have been credited as the photographer! Are we all becoming like Purple Mike to where we get off on seeing our pictures in parachutist? Hop around and do the pee pee dance in excitement? Show them to wuffo chicks and try to pick them up with it? (well, I'm not trying to pick up any wuffo chicks... or guys for that matter!) For real though-- congrats on the pics!! Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)