ChrisD

Ya know Eloy has a heck of a winter as well! Axis, Airspeed, and a host of others flock there to avoid the cold. Students can't do much better than this....Airfare is a little pricier though. ya ought to give campin a try at DeLand it really isn't all that bad? And the local spot restaurant makes a better breakfast than that modified continental thing down the street. ya know forida has a number of really great places. DeLand clearly has more loads during the week than the rest though! Ask here if anyone want's to put you guys up??? Anyways have fun C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

No arguing with the purple stripe, but leave the color in the vid, I for one would love to hear him from the ground???

Don't exit low.... C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

A couple of things: (1) So long as that person has remained insured, that person cannot be denied coverage. That's been the law for about 30 years now. (2) This is the same argument I make about mental illness and, well, just about any right that people want to take away from people who are usually born with it. (3) The ACA penalizes smoking tobacco, and only use of tobacco. So penalizing behavior isn't off the table. A line has been drawn. We are in the business of drawing lines. Want proof? Why isn't there legislation that precludes life insurance companies from turning down people with preexisting conditions? Because a line has been drawn. Where the line falls is the debate, not the presence of a line. O'h donut boy speaks,.... So basically what your saying is that the insurance companies have the right to only insure those that are never going to get sick? To change the law so that they can use statistics to ensure their profitability and then whilst at the same time mandate that insurance be a mandated commodity that every one must pay for as required by law to ensure their continued global domination??? And by the way insurance companies drop coverage in record numbers. Just because the national enquirer doesn't report this doesn't mean that the vast majority of Americans are being fucked up tha ass so far they can taste the corporate dick. Millions are denied coverage and millions loose their coverage as soon as they hit the hospital steps. AND WHO FUNDS ALL OF THIS, AND WHO MAKES THIS SCAM OF EPIC PROPORTIONS POSSIBLE???????? Why your friendly local lawyer of course.....

I read this whole thing and I wished I haden't....for a number of reasons. The biggest reason is tha lack of truth here as well as other places... You don't get to keep your current health care plan and have the fed fund it if it doesn't meet the minimum standards. In other words if you have an existing policy that is shit because your insurance company is ripping you off. And there a more than a few out there, the fed isn't going to pay for existing corruption. So on this point, and this point alone, the OP is a fuckin idiot for starting this conversation by not having the slightest clue what they are speaking about. Cause if the funding for these limited scams was included you all would be saying the exact opposite of what your flaming about now in that the fed is funding scam policies! So make up your ignorant minds and at least try to get some of your facts straight!!! C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Yes to most of your observations

How old is your dad, ? I'm not making any age thing here just that you mentioned a long layoff????

Whilst every pilot has at one time or another experienced higher winds at altitude, this makes for freaky conditions on the surface. 80 at 10? And Light on the ground push's my skepticism button. Never mind the fact that we are trying to educate skydivers about wind conditions???? If I saw 80 at ten in the forecast or current conditions, this is more , much , much more than a little red flag... C There is nothing "fun" about taking these kinds of risks and the potential for major shear and rotors... But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I love your idea,

Guinness induced shorthand. A lot of times when people make these mathematical comparisons they like to take shortcuts along the path to discovery. In the link posted above, prior post, there is the "Plane and the Package." the short cut there is when the author of that animation says in fine print at the bottom: [I] "... (that is, if the influence of air resistance could be assumed negligible),...." [/I] Of course this whole debate and hypothetical discussion, fun isn't it?, depends upon our understanding of air resistance. So when I make a simple calculation regarding the MINIMUM time individuals and groups exit an aircraft like an otter I'll use the hypothetical conditions of no wind. No wind on the ground and no wind in the air. (Of course this rarely exists.) A common exit time in light winds is 5 seconds. (Who thought this up BTW?) But rarely do things go as planned, ever see every group on an aircraft exit every 5 seconds? Anyways spotting we can use terms like upwind, downwind, beside or whatever but all in reference to the spot. If we are flying directly into the wind ( if there is wind) we would be downwind of the spot, we would then be directly above the spot, and then we would be upwind of the spot. When spotting I try to get everyone upwind of the spot when exiting. Which begs the question: why? If there isn't any wind we could start exiting on both sides of the spot? As wind speed increases we should start leaning towards exiting closer to the spot and now mostly upwind of the spot. At what point do we make sure every one exits upwind of the spot? Cause I'm seeing a lot of GPS guided aircraft that turn the green light on as soon as they are directly overhead. And time in the air when people could have exited early and safely depending upon the wind is being wasted. So is there an issue with exiting before the spot on jump run? Anyways calculations are easier to understand if we are at 13,500 and there is no wind and the aircraft is moving at 80 mph ~~. (Upwind, kind of a generic term...) 5 seconds, 600 feet apart, due the parabolic trajectory, and all is well.... now add some wind! Mostly you have answered some questions yourself about this but I do switch between hypothetical and reality sometimes. To make a point. When I say the winds aloft can be screaming if the winds below are high it's a reference to the fact that hypothetically we can in fact have a jump run that is stationary. It is very easy to have winds aloft at 70 mph (and you wont find me jumpin that day.) so hypothetically under those conditions the objects being dropped will in fact have the same exact path and they will be in fact directly on top of each other. Now some of you will point out that some of these objects, if they are different, will undergo acceleration due to the varying amounts of their inherent wind resistance. So what is the point of all of this? Cause there is one heck of a spectrum of difference between these two extremes: On one hand we have conditions of no wind and everyone is 600 feet apart (@80) and on the other hand if the aircraft is stationary everyone is on top of each other. (@0) What it comes down to is the awareness of how stuff changes as wind conditions change. And hopefully for some of you, you will develop an awareness of the amounts of friction and acceleration a moving body of air can exert upon an object. This is yet again another subject but: You can't always use the total difference in time to make these types of calculations. Think of it this way... A freeflyier and a belly flier exit, in the same air, how much acceleration does each experience in the first 10 seconds? How much horizontal friction does each have? (The difference is close to 0) Now take the next ten seconds, lower altitude, how much horizontal friction? (Still close to 0, but now with decreasing altitude the wind component is actually decreasing.) And so on, and so on... It comes down to their horizontal friction and acceleration due to the horizontal component of the winds acceleration. Throw in a few that believe that once you hit terminal yo fall straight down, and a few others that believe that minimal amounts of the difference in horizontal friction can move you hundreds of feet in a decreasing wind gradient and you have the recipe for confusion. BUT if the end result is to allow more time between groups then believe in whatever floats your boat! C Now here is what is going on in the real world: All loads are being dumped after the spot, many students are getting out way upwind, too far IMO. And no one is making multiple passes or increasing time for increasing wind conditions. I also like your use of the 45 rule...If students are opening at 4000 give or take and they are 4000 feet away from their landing area, this is again, roughly the sides of a square, the canopy flying roughly at a 45 degree flight path...

If you start to look at just the parabolic drop, what is called the classic drop physics thing, V(vac), you can see how exiting every 5 seconds at around 80 you put about 600 feet of distance between groups. Basically this is the distance travelled in 5 seconds. If the aircraft isn't travelling at 80, say it's facing into the wind then this distance between groups is smaller. This is where the 45 rule comes in. Basically the space describes a 45 500 feet on each side of a square. 500 feet down 500 feet behind, on the 45 degree slope line. Because in the biginining the 182 travelled at about 70, and exiting at about whatever altitude you pick the first thousand burns up about 1000 feet. this takes ~ 10 seconds so some genius figures 500 feet down (roughly 5 seconds.) 5 seconds apart will give yo about a 45 slope. This is why the 45 rule worked for a time. Cause it worked and ensured adequate separation. Now if you r in a head wind the aircraft isn't travelling at 80 anymore so you don't have the same separation. Luckily when the winds aloft are high most jumping ceases cause the winds on the ground are high too. So when the winds at altitude are roughly exceeding 30 give or take roughly the ground winds are at about 20 and most people start thinkin.... Anyways if the winds at altitude are 30 then the groundspeed is about 50 ,...and what kind of separation do we get at 50 ? Is that enough? (How much ground is covered traveling at 50 mph in FPS?) If you need help thinking about this think of a stationary object at 13.5 everyone will be on top of each other no matter what you do. Your horizontal separation is then a function of your "air resistance," in the relative wind. So there are factors that have been largely ignored (Think this drift thing) That have greater effects on group sepeeration than the majority thinks and have ignored.... Think of it this way different groups are basically in the same moving airmass. They differ in space and time by about 5 seconds. Now that's a constant 5 seconds not the total travel time. And this is why I have an issue with so many people thinkin that the Drift Calculator is the final word. It's basically because everyone wants a simple answere to a complex problem that they don't understand. The simple fix is once again more time between groups in higher winds. And shorter jump runs when space is an issue. Or multiple runs. Exit order really doesn't matter. And stop dumping students out last and at the same time expect them to make it to the "holding, play" area, cause they can't! C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

And here is another one that frequently gets lost: How fast is the aircraft travelling when you get out? Let's say your going about 80. And for the sake of argument there is no wind. This means that each exit is separated by about 600 feet, using 5 seconds between groups. Correct my math if I'm off here, please.... So for an Otter with 10 groups exiting, for example,.... that takes up about a mile. All upwind, hopefully??? So the last to get out is basically guanteeed to be 4000 feet away from pattern entry (playground) area???? What if they are a student and what does this say for those areas that traditionally put students out last???? Nothing like setting the stage for failure from the get go??? C Simple math: 5 sec x 1 min/60 sec x 1 hr/60 min x 80 miles/1 hr x 5280 feet/1 mile = ~ 600 feet of sepeeration. So if your landing area is about 3000 feet wide how many groups can exit overhead? 3000/600 = 5 groups before yo start to run out of ground.... But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

There is a difference between what Dr. K is saying about drift and what I am pointing out about ballistic trajectories. Many want to believe that by maintaining a stable free fall (belly) position that this offers the same horizontal air resistance as a head down position. This isn't true. And needs to be included in any mathematical model. Just think of exiting a King Air by jumping up with your full body perpendicular to the relative wind. You will hit the tail. Such is the difference in body position. Now the other ting that is a really widely held misconception is that in free fall, again stable neutral position, this will stop forward motion. This is what we call magical thinking. And nothing could be further from the truth. Your on a big air hockey table people, and your ballistic trajectory continues till you hit the ground. You cannot ignore physics by ignorance. But this is another subject. For large groups yo all move the same thru the air, and there are two components to this motion Horizontal and Vertical. It's just that your all moving thru the air following this curve so it appears that your falling straight down. Your only reference is the other nearby people, so it's fairly easy to understand this misconception. But the other circumstance where this misconception exists is in RW where some people believe that to stop forward motion all you have to do is go to a box or neutral position. This belief has maimed people, people. There is a huge difference between the proper application of extending your legs to move forward at an appropriate speed for the conditions as compared to believing that to stop forward motion all you have to do is go to a neutral box. If your well timed coast isn't so well timed you need to counter your initial input to stop the motion in question. In other words if you put in full leg extension to move quickly and find your self approaching others to hot then yes you need to move backwards to counter the inertia, Coast, whatever you want to call it.... But alas we have people that believe that motion can be stopped by going to the neutral position. This is a little scary that there are so many that believe this. All you have to do is roll a cue ball to see the effects of inertia. Give the ting a little push and it rolls a little bit. The surface friction eventually slows it to a full stop. Give the ball a big push and it can bounce across the table for quite some time. The same in the air. If and because we haven't included body position and all of the various in be tweens we face the very real situation that by having belly fliers go out first that they, because of their decreased air resistance due their body position they will move horizontally into a free fliers airspace. If the free fliers go out first, their perpendicular body position, to the relative wind, slows down their horizontal motion. Then in this case by belly groups exiting second the distance between types actually increases and the likely hood of sharing the same airspace decreases. The rub is of course that free fliers can develop very great horizontal movement by their varying body positions. This for the astute reader should cause some concern because regardless of exit order,...they can really move around in the sky. Which brings us back to my points that I have already pointed out above. Think of it this way, in some other threads about "line trim" many very experienced people have pointed out that we can tell when our canopies are flying like shit by the number of progressive malfunctions that canopy is experiencing. Obviously we should be looking at line trim, but should we be having these inane conversations about malfunctions being the indicator???? Kind of a stupid way to fix things by waiting and arguing about malfunctions. So the conversations usually end up by everyone having this debate about how many inches and the severity of the malfunction and a whole other bunch of nonsense. What you should be doing is having discussions about fixing your line trim well before this malfunction stage. Like when line trim gets to be more than 10% of original specifications. But then the dickheads of the world point out cost and "you don't have to do this or that..." and a hundred other things,... all a side issue to the main problem. Your all doing the same with these discussions about exit order.... C Aircraft Drop Now add the terminal velocity, and resistance values for various body positions. And you can see the complexity of trying to simplify things. You also need numbers for air resistance for various body positions. An understanding of V(vac) , and trail would be helpful as well. Or we also have a wealth of information from bomb parabolic trajectory studies. People have been dropping stuff from things in the air as soon as things have taken to the air. And as someone has just reminded me, free fliers spend less time in the air, this translates to less horizontal motion. This is not a plus for sending them out second. And here is another way of looking at things that has much real world real experience behind it. If we want to get all the bombs on target, to get them to bunch up so to speak. All we have to do is add air resistance to the bombs that are released later in the stack. This increases their horizontal resistance, changes their parabolic curve so to speak. Al that is required is a small tab on the fin. This means that the objects with the least amount of horizontal resistance go out first. (think Belly) Then the objects with more horizontal resistance are dropped. (Think Free fliers.) They all end up the same place on the ground. Is this what you really want??? But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Nope. Air resistance will stop horizontal motion. Eventually. If you exit the aircraft at what altitude, if you do nothing but fall face down, at 13,500, does your horizontal motion stop due to air resistance?? (Be careful here because this altitude is below AGL.) C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I appreciate DR. K's work,.. But all of you guys have forgotten the fundamental thing about this simulation in that it is constructed to support the software writers opinions and doesn't reflect real world physics. Don't look at the pictures and convince yourselves that this is the way it is. Here is a fundamental concern of mine: The same physics and calculations are used to support free fall rates, times and drift. But a Belly Flier has less cross sectional area. Hence less resistance to horizontal motion. You can't use one fact to support one opinion and then basically in the same sentence ignore this fact to come up with conclusions. If you watch groups from the ground you can clearly see that horizontal motion, from the aircrafts initial horizontal motion, never stops,...There simply isn't enough time for the small amount of air resistance to fully stop their ballistic curve. This is most apparent with tandems, the drogue is clearly visible from the ground and is easy to track. I have encountered way to many individuals that are under the mistaken belief that horizontal motion stops as soon as you exit. I have also encountered way to many people that are under the mistaken idea that ten seconds of trajectory time accounts for a thousand feet horizontal separation with different types of skydiving. Ya all need to re-do some of your math. And many of you need to rethink the examples you use because you can't ignore the difference between a belly fliers horizontal position and a free flyers head down position. The head down position offers much more cross sectional area and slows down horizontal motion considerably sooner than an average belly flier. The only thing that can stop horizontal motion is changing direction in the air, something that all free fliers and tracking divers, and wing-suitors know well. This means large belly groups can easily move horizontally into a free fliers air space. Think of the head down position as putting on the brakes as to horizontal motion because of the increased air resistance. I participate in some of these inane conversations because increased awareness of all of the many variables in exit order increase safety. And until you all are aware of the two factors that are in fact going to save someone from a collision your all deluding yourselves when you place absolute faith and trust in someone else's' pictures and ideas.... Time between groups. And multiple passes for small landing areas. C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Boobs, Coors, and "Jumpin" don't get any better... C They will probabley censor some of that.... But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Just the latest news from these liers... Ostrich C Personally I cut and past some of these news reports cause they tend to disappear.... But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I feel for ya, this is a very common observation pre A lic status. Ask around and see if their are any coach rated jumpers just hanging and will jump with you. This is a difficult thing to ask for some times because many of the jumpers you have been jumping with are expecting some sort of compensation. But there are fun jumpers out there with this rating that are willing to help. And enjoy doing this for the fun of it without looking like they want 100 bucks for the privilege of jumping with you! You go from an rather intense learning environment to nothing in one jump this is very disorienting. And many, rightly so, (To a point.) don't hesitate to point out your lack of experience. This can be a tough time for many, we actually loose many students during this period. There is a joy to be had by being persistent....and sadly to say many fun jumpers have long forgotten what it was like for them. This is also a time when you go from being someone else's responsibility, in a sense, to learning to be responsible for your own actions, this is a big part of how others protect themselves cause a lot of the things we do in jumping, I or anyone else can't help you if something less than desirable happens. This is just psychology and people it's not you...so learn to be the best you can be. You have taken a first step by basically stating that your solos are (whatever) that tells me you have too much time on your hands and we are into the area of I don't know what I don't know, if that makes any sense. Fill your dives with a full plate: 2 alternating 360 turns and end exactly on heading. Pick a distant land mark for this. Try a barrel roll on heading, up high, see how much altitude that took, do some more rigorous turns, check your altitude, and try to fill up your plate with too much stuff to do and still be on your altitude's exactly. Or whatever works for you.... I would suggest you practice some skills and then practice some more. Have a plan and stick to the plan. Part of this could be learning some topic that in the past hasn't interested you or has seemed out of reach. You can learn more about packing and discover the 100 or so different opinions and methods to pack while at the DZ. Personally I recommend working on your canopy skills and trying to better your best accuracy spot to date. This can in itself be very challenging. Especially if you have a light wind day and can vary your pattern direction. It is surprising how quickly we learn local landmarks and then that all goes to shit when we travel.... These solo jumps are a time when you can solidify and work. Sometimes work is just that....so set goals and work on stuff....

Could you perhaps update your profile information, I'm a little concerned that your wing loading says 0.1 or am I missing something? One post in 9 years? Congratulations on posting here!!! Awsome to finally hear from ya!!!

I like the X... C Boogers...cute, >>>>> Accuracy guys are a different breed, they can do no wrong!!!! But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

We don't need to see your eyes. WE do need to see you follow instructions in the air in response to our hand signals. If you can see everything you need to see and have to wear shades to do it then there isn't an issue..... Find another instructor or start driving somewhere else. Elsanore and Perris are nice C Good luck and be persistant if that's your goal.... I also would be interested in hearing a response from SAn D. , I suspect there has been some sort of miscommunication.... But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Thanks for the reminder.... There is variation in rigs, everything varies a little bit. It is perhaps more important to recognize too tight fit's by that observation alone! As compared with the published catalog manufacturers specifications etc. There is the possibility of doing everything buy the book and still missing the point about these issues. C The picture's from all of the various individuals showing a rig being held up in the air by the reserve tape SHOULD be enough to keep most all of us up a night!!! Your observation about the manufacturers, is understood, but it's your life on the line here not there's. They do the best they can, but sometimes its not enough.... Unless of course your Ron, >>>>>> Wait for it, wait for it>>>>>>>>>>>>> The RACER web site and start reading, if you want to that is....AKA Jumpshack. Or whatever name they are calling themselves now a days.... But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I actually not seeing a lot of reasons that or why YOU want to downsize. "you want to have fun in the air" "I want more penetration," WELL why aren't you using your rears for everything? And when I hear wanting to have fun in the air I think more potential for collisions with others....Not saying that applies to you, just saying not the safest way to speak out loud when jumping with others....First thing I want to do under this circumstance is find out where your going to be and go in the opposite direction...Many DZ's have separate landing areas just because of this type of thinking... You can always surge just before flaring and scare the shit out of your self by doing things like that??? And if you don't understand what I mean about surging your canopy then you shouldn't be seeking a more "fun" canopy. (The last sentence was sarchasim.) If your asking these types of questions, and yo are than that tells me you shouldn't.... And penetration is nice but you loose the glide ratio to get you back from a long spot. And if penetration is that much of a concern perhaps your jumping in winds that are too strong in the first place. Is hanging on your front risers too much???? Actually I have heard this before that many can't ride the fronts for long cause it is hard to do?? Is this what your speaking about??