obelixtim

Al Krueger, taught me that thinking during freefall was the key to skydiving...things got a hell of a lot easier after that.... Craig Fronk...... W.H.O........the party animal from hell...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Drunken bet.............d'ohhh!!!!!!..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Heh heh heh.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

A brain that works...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Thank you.......my first objective is to allow as many people as possible enjoy a parachute jump as safely as possible.... My second objective is to turn them into expert skydivers... I've actually done a lot of that.... "Binning" them gets right up my nose...... If I have to do that....I think I've fucked up...... Its a challenge that I welcome...... Thank you Aggie ....I'd like to share a beer and discuss all these other "experts"..... I suspect we'll be laughing a lot..... Fuckwits........ My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Aggie.....I'm wit chu bro.......... Everybody else is WRONG..... (listen to the squealing.....) My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Listen up turkeys..... Unnecessary bullshit???.... Hows this for one example...I watched with some disbelief a senior BPA Instructor go into incredible detail about workings of the 3 ring circus to a group of first jump students...... What was even worse was that he didn't even have a rig to show them (he'd forgotten to bring a rig to training, believe it or not!!!) What you had was a very worried and confused group of students.....hell, even I was confused and I'm a rigger..... Students DON'T need to know anything about how the cutaway system works.....they KNOW it does....because I say so...they believe me.... PLF's - unnecessary bullshit..... I'll take into account that you and bch7773 are real experts when it comes to training students and the place of PLF's. PLF's are simple to train and learn....but it does take hours of repetition...back left, back right, front left, front right, side left, side right......and you may have heard repeated many times during the training these golden words..."KEEP YOUR FEET AND KNEES TOGETHER...... Back in 1974 I spent about 5-6 hours doing all this stuff and got it perfect, and survived about 800 roundie jumps uninjured......and I survived a few very hard landings... However......leg fractures were a common occurrence amongst student jumpers.....and if you looked around it was really rare to find any jumper who hadn't had at least one injury in their career......despite being experts on the landing mats...... This got me thinking about it all, and from observation of many landings, and questioning many injured jumpers it became apparent that the reason for the injuries was a failure to keep feet together on landing....and the common reason for that was...... "Coming in to land, trying to decide whether it was a left or right roll I had to do....the ground leapt up, I got a fright...and this momentary loss of concentration at the vital point of the landing was enough to put me off, feet came apart, and bam, I was on the deck injured"...... In other words...overloading during the critical second..... The answer was....make it simple....forget the left, right, backwards, frontwards stuff......just jam those legs together and stay like that no matter what.......you WILL walk away.....but if your feet are apart even a millimetre...you WILL get injured...we tried it in training......easy to remember, simple to train..... Instantly......the injury rate dropped by 80%....and stayed that way......I PROVED that PLF's were not necessary...on the DZ.... Don't try sarcasm on me.......what have you ever proved.....or tried to change?.... With square mains and reserves on my student gear...PLF's are not necessary and I don't train anything apart from landing into wind on at least half brakes...standups are standard..... However, during EP's for unusual landings...I still train "FEET AND KNEES TOGETHER, NO MATTER WHAT!".... Injury rates amongst my students????....ZERO!!!!! AFF IS more complex, by its very nature.....again overloading is the problem......SL students have at least 5 jumps to focus on canopy skills exclusively, whereas with AFF canopy skills are simply an add on after the FF. The student is amping after the FF, and there is no way they can focus on good canopy skills......mostly its "listen to the radio".... My SL students, by comparison are off the radio by jump #4, and by the time they have to start focussing on FF, canopy skills are a breeze, and they are confident about them.....so their FF performance is better as well. No way an AFF student can compare..... AFF inefficient???...I can train 20 SL students and jump them in a day.....how long would it take 2 instructors to train 20 AFF students and jump them?....... Be lucky to do it in a week...especially if the weather doesn't co operate..... What else would you like to try me out on????...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Well, I stopped teaching students PLF's in 1984....and do you know something interesting???......the injury rate dropped by 80%..... It is much easier, quicker and SIMPLER to teach students to simply keep their legs, knees and feet hard together right thru the landing...... And I've taught students with no English at all to jump quite safely..sometimes classes with Japanese, Swedes, French, Israelis and Germans all together...... What did I do???...I made the training very simple, cut out ALL unnecessary bullshit....used lots of diagrams and demonstrations, had the best gear, and best aircraft possible.....amd they were all static line trained...... AFF is the most complicated and inefficient way of training solo jumpers imaginable.......and does not turn out well rounded skydivers AT ALL.....witness the poor canopy skills and the number of accidents under perfectly good canopies.....the students are overloaded, and if the instruction is a bit deficient as well then you are creating problems.... I've trained over 10,000 first jumpers, so I do have a slight idea of what works and what doesn't....also I've trained a hell of a lot of JM's and Instructors..... Also my degree happens to be in Education....so I know a bit about teaching and learning practices...... Just because its "in the manual" doesn't make it right....PLF's were in the manual I first used...but concrete experience meant we changed that manual......... I stand by everything I say......and I have yet to see a reasonable argument so far in this discussion that would change my mind.... Bring on something I can't dispute!!!... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Total bullshit guys.....if the student doesn't get it....either the instructor isn't doing his job, or the training syllabus isn't right, or the equipment isn't suitable for use by first jumpers........ Take the point about not being able to do a PLF........ Why do you need to teach PLF's????.....there is no reason to teach PLF's to first jumpers AT ALL.....EVER..... The only student I ever made do a tandem was 78 years old and senile....but 19 of his 70 year plus mates did perfect solo's...... If you "bin" a student then you are a crap instructor....... If the student hasn't learnt.....then the teacher hasn't taught........end of story.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Amen..............(you forgot it)..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Its easy to give up skydiving for all the reasons and more that you see on this thread.....the key is "desire"....... Its also easy to blame experienced skydivers for ignoring junior/intermedite jumpers, and often its true, but remember every experienced skydiver was once a turkey, and has been there, done that.......we know what its like......got the "T" shirt... We've all had to break thru the brick wall of indifference, money, weather, gear, aeroplanes, and a zillion other obstacles to jumping, to clock up the jumps and experience we have over time......no one ever said it was easy.... Nothings changed, in fact, skydiving is easier today than ever before....there's just more people involved....and so thats what most senior skydivers are busy doing.....making it happen....nothing personal..... You've got to battle on and be persistent.....but you will get there......if you have the desire.....like everybody else who's been around....its hard work.... No free lunches here brother!!!... Now just get out that door!!!.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Well said..... Apart from a couple of bits.....a mistake in skydiving is rarely fatal......because fatalities are actually quite rare......I've seen heaps of people get away with major mistakes.....but one or two others die thru tiny errors....... Basically, I think, if your number is up......you're gonna go....whatever you're doing at the time........ I 've never considered anyone a skydiver/parachutist until they've jumped solo......tandem is just a passenger ride.....just like a flight in a commercial aircraft doesn't make a person a pilot....however tandems are really important in introducing people to the sport............ Skydiving didn't become "normal" till tandems came along......winning a 50 year battle for acceptance by the public and politicians as something normal to do, as opposed to an activity previously perceived as something only for lunatics or the military...... Seeing an 82 year old doing a tandem in 1989, realising he was born about the same time the Wright brothers flew, just blew me away.....an impossibility made real......hugely good stuff.... Amazingly, it the first time I've ever seen a statement that concurs with a belief I've always held.... That AFF doesn't prepare you to jump solo..... The intensive training about the freefall part of the jump dominates, (with good reason), but, at the same time, doesn't cover in depth some of the other aspects (canopy control, emergency drillls, self reliance) to the degree it could do.......... The evidence for this opinion, apart from my own observation, is the evidence I see on these boards every day......an appalling level of ignorance about skydiving by people who have a mostly AFF background......it regularly shocks me... As an instructor, its always been my mission to make sure people do at least TWO jumps on their first day if at all possible......retention rates are huge if it happens......and its actually very little extra work......95% of which is done before jump #1 anyway........... At a wild, rough, guess however, just to throw some numbers around, out of 10,000 solo first jumpers I've trained.....probably 3,000 did a second jump, and about 500 got to "A" licence (25 jumps). 23 became tandem masters, 15 became instructors, and 5 now own and run their own DZ's. None of them died skydiving. A couple smacked themselves up pretty good thru simple brainlocks, and did hospital time for it...... 4 had mals on their first jump, and dealt with properly.... A lot did only one jump, "to see what it was like". Fine by me........its all they intended to do.... I'm quite proud of these figures.. The problems preventing retention are pretty standard......weather, money, family pressure. Fear was never really a factor.......testament to my brilliant training.....and awesome personality...... I'd be interested to see a few other figures, but I would be surprised to see any that are better...which shows that retention rates aren't that great................ Over 30 years though, I think retention rates have improved......but its a lot easier to skydive today than it used to be....... I think everyone should do one.....its a life changing experience..... NOTHING else compares....... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I rest my case.......... Actually, I've had lots of dealings with military trained jumpers, going as far back as WW2 veterans who I've retrained to jump in their 70's, and who I respect and admire to the max...... The ones who run the BPA are, however, in my opinion, a bunch of wankers..... I challenge any of them to prove me wrong... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

PC's.....SLEDS......shit boys you're showing your age......... If you could get a Sled to open you were a lucky boy....they were fine when open....but......fun to watch the spinning mals each weekend......probably would have been fine if the slider had been invented....the strato star killed them stone dead....even with the original reefing line rope... Why even go there???.... Best to leave those canopies in canopy heaven (or hell) where they belong..... I still have a P.C. snow white like the one in Skies Call 2 or 3......only 20 jumps on it....beautiful canopy.....might jump it again when I lose 40 pounds.......last time I did I had to put it in a student rig..... It was weird.....round main with a square reserve...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I did say that there are exceptions...I've met plenty of switched on British jumpers....but my "generalisation" of the negative attitude about the way jumping is run is one I will stick to.....and it perpetuates itself because not enough people know any better..... As you say, there are many obstacles to jumping...weather, planes etc....but that is exactly why the obstacles put up by humans are by far the worst.....and in my book are totally unacceptable and unforgiveable....... To quote a well known phrase...."if you arn't gonna piss......get off the pot....." Too many tossers are spoiling the scene in Britain, and need to get out of the way and let things happen.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Not harsh at all....I've experienced DZ's in 8 different countries over 30 years, and trained thousands of students (many British) and I've never come across a country with skydiving run by such incompetants as I've found in Britain. The BPA is run by a bunch of self serving fuddy duddies who think that they are gods gift to the sport......but who haven't got the slightest idea of what is necessary to run this sport in the 21st century...... The British scene is a good 35-40 years behind the rest of the world in terms of professionalism and attitude...... I've never ever come across a national mindset which is so overwhelmingly amateur and negative, and puts so many obstacles in the way of having fun. This is why you see so many Brits taking up skydiving in countries where the attitude is "make it happen". The story that starts this thread is so typical of Britain. An example of this attitude is an occasion when I accompanied a friend to a first jump course...it took one and a half days to train 10 students, and 4 hours to jump them all out of a turbine aircraft. After they had jumped there was still 4 hours of daylight, perfect conditions......and not ONE of them was even asked if they would like to do another jump, yet most would have done so. So 10 potentially good jumpers, all potential future instructors, jumpmasters, or quality competitors, were lost forever. No one will ever know......and how many times has that scenario been repeated...... The chief instructor was an arrogant, incompetant dolt.....who, I found out later, was a very big cheese on the BPA executive. I've trained a group of 20 first jumpers (S/L) on a Saturday morning, and jumped them all out of a 4 place aircraft, by the Sunday evening some had done 9 jumps, and were going to 9 grand doing 30 second freefalls......the plane didn't stop except for fuel, and we had 4 student rigs to jump.....and there was just myself and one JM.......we worked our butts off.....but it shows what is possible.....my job is to make jumping happen......... I'd love to see the turnaround times of the aircraft on the DZ this thread originates from.... Of course there are probably individual jumpers in Britain who are exceptions to my experience, but I would bet they have experience of efficient DZ's in other places, and despite that, are still subject to the antiquated attitudes of the BPA. Plenty of British jumpers agree with me.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I agree......most DZ's in the UK couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.....don't waste your time there....go abroad......save yourself a lot of time and frustration at the hands of pedantic no nothings..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Fear is a by product of ignorance or the unknown.......and most times is irrational...... A little bit of fear is OK, but if anyone is getting into a plane terrified then I'm wondering what the hell they are doing...... If you don't know about something, or are bothered about something.....then FIND OUT ABOUT IT from someone who does......its not rocket science, and skydiving information is not secret!!!!.... And don't waste time worrying about things that are not relevant to your current status or experience level...... OK!!!!....... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Be careful....some of those Asian ladyboys will fool you easily........ And didn't Scott of the Antarctic end up pretty dead in the end......... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I think it would show he's not very smart....and is an indicator that he has the potential to mess up in the future.....wouldn't pull his rating, but he would be on "probation", and his rating would be at risk if he didn't clean up his act. I would regard it as a clear warning signal......and at my DZ he would be doing 2 or 3 static line jumps minimum, because I regard his screw up more serious because if anyone should, HE should know better....and he should be setting an example...I'd also be giving him a warning and keeping a close eye on him in the future...... Tandem Masters should be better than that, because they have had more intensive, specialised training....and even though it is Tandem specific, the principles apply to all disciplines..... A tandem master seen on the end of the dope rope would be a great encouragement to all the other hotshots who think they can flout the rules and also lessen the arguments and self justification I have to put up with when someone needs a rev up. Disciplinary action must be seen to be fair and without favour if it is to be effective.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Its easy to set up a rig for a SL jump, any rigger worth his salt should easily be able to explain it.....ask one who's been around for a while... As for you enjoying hop "n" pops..... Hmmmm.......you'll just have to take my last option.....I'd just have to give you the bash!!!........ My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I'm sure that a SL can be found somewhere on most DZ's. It would take me about 5 minutes to set up any rig (sport or student) so it can be Static lined quite safely......all you need is a breaktie, and some elastic bungy to use as a closing loop, a carabiner and strong point in the plane..... Thats what I did with the 4 way team I put out....all jumped their own rigs.... Most riggers will have this sort of stuff amongst all the junk they collect..... Don't agree at all with the tandem pax option.... A better option would be to make them do a solo hop'n'pop from the same altitudes......3 grand and 2 grand.....its quite safe to do a sub terminal from that altitude.......but it does make their eyes bug out a bit.....seeing what the ground looks like from that altitude......message beginning to sink in...... If they bitch about it being too low to get out safely, I point out that the reason they are there is because they didn't seem to have a problem with screaming thru that height at terminal just now....... They usually go fairly quiet about then.....message received loud and clear..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Did it to a hotshot 4 way team one time who smoked it down doing points.....opened at about a grand...... It actually turned into a fun load as I dispatched them at 2 grand, lots of banter and laughter in the plane, and exaggerated "student" type shenanigans..... However the point was well made and well remembered by everyone at the DZ, and those guys appreciated the fact that they didn't get grounded....however they then became great advocates for altitude awareness, and became good examples for everyone else... What could have turned into a nasty shit fight with lots of bad feeling turned into a positive learning experience for everyone. Like I said there is no point in discipline if a lesson isn't learned and it can be done in a positive way.... I've never seen a grounding achieve the same effect.....ever.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Most people who are not "cut out" for the sport quit of their own volition....thats their decision and I respect that..... However, I've never ever told someone they should take up bowling, and never would....perhaps if there was a compelling medical reason I might...but even then I would try to accommodate them if possible...and I've trained people to do solo's who do have medical issues, but not enough to disqualify them in my mind.....(In NZ people do not have to get a medical clearance from a doctor to jump..we believe people are capable of making their own decisions, they are adults after all).... Plenty of people have problems, and if they are still keen on the sport I will show them how to overcome their problems and how to enjoy skydiving safely....its all about patience, encouragement, and education.... I have seen plenty of people who would be written off as useless by most overcome their problems and become good skydivers.....to me they are a challenge.... If someone is not capable of handling an emergency it will be because they haven't been trained properly... and I will find that out before they get in the plane the first time.....and rectify that situation to make sure they are capable...... Someone on the board last week with 30 jumps was saying that they weren't sure that they had the strength to pull their reserve in an emergency....I found that totally unbelievable... There are no bad students....only bad instructors.... As far as being scared of people in the air I make sure people are jumping within their capabilities, and don't put myself in a position where they can take me out..... So yes, I can say that I've spent this long in the sport and I've never trained anyone who I've later had to ground for good. I have confidence in my training methods, the equipment I provide, and the people I deal with.....too many people are afraid to trust themselves and others...I prefer to be positive... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I disagree...I think grounding is a waste of time in most cases. There are often other, better ways to get the point across..... I can see why Perris has made the rule though, because a DZ can't afford to have unnecessary bad PR, and regardless of who is at fault when a bounce occurs, the DZ always pays a price....as do the people who live and work there.....If people are going to ignore basic survival rules in great numbers, then they have to get a bit ruthless... And skydiving CAN be for everyone because there are enough different disciplines to cater for all sorts of jumpers...as long as people are properly trained then they can jump safely.....and why shouldn't everyone have the opportunity to enjoy what we know is great..... I've spent a lot of time helping people experience the thrill of a lifetime.....and I enjoy seeing them buzz out big time.......... I thought the "elitist" bullshit went out of skydiving in the mid 70's......and I'll fight anyone who has the arrogance to say skydiving "is only for a few". Total horseshit!!!... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....