obelixtim

I posted something about my experience simply to illustrate that I DID have some idea of what I was talking about, and I wanted to illustrate that I wasn't speaking from ignorance, or some dogged, inflexible position. I realise you hadn't mentioned it.....likewise, I assumed that you were reasonably experienced as well, and I respect that....... It pissed me off that you had to have a crack at me.....insinuating that I was somehow impeding progress and should get out of the way...... Radio comms ARE essential....but only under canopy.....I seriously DO think that FF is not the place for them......because too many things can go wrong with them, and a high speed FF environment is not the place for a novice to have anything go wrong......even something you or I would consider insignificant or irrelevant is enough to send their stress levels through the roof...... I am surprised that you don't seem to grasp the concept of task overload, especially when dealing with students. It IS a very real factor in early student training.....they are in a totally alien environment, with all the fears, anxieties and stress that comes with the territory, and are at their most vulnerable. It is not the time to add things that could go wrong.....and radios, no matter how good, often do not do the job...for a multitude of reasons, some of which I pointed out......On any AFF dive, they are already overloaded when they start.... In fact, you yourself illustrated my point perfectly......I said verbiosity was one problem....too much talk....... I quote: At 5000 feet your instruction to the student would be... "Its pull time...do it now" ....... You've used 6 words when 1 would do....... "PULL"!!..... At 5000 feet its not time to give advice......Its time to demand action...... One word will do that........because another 1000 feet is gone while the student thinks..."what did he say?"....when any one of your 5 unnecessary words is misheard because his ears just popped..... On the radio you have to minimise your vocabulary......and that discipline must be standard practice by ALL Instructors on the DZ..... And that one, SIMPLE, thing....is damned difficult......believe me....... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Its obvious that you haven't read my post properly......or misunderstood what I said..... My degree is in education, my masters thesis was specifically "teaching and learning under stress"....Skydiving was the perfect activity to base it on.......I've been involved with teaching and learning processes, and skydiving for 30 years now....with over 10000 students trained personally, as well as many Jumpmasters and Instructors trained as well.... I think I know a little bit about what makes a student tick...... There is a world of difference between a student hanging safely under a good canopy with the time and training to cope without a radio, and a FF student amping out on adrenalin at 120mph.........perhaps wildly out of control with their instructor some distance away......and silence on the radio when he's expecting it to work....... "Not rely on it either way" I've seen lots of instances where AFF students canopy training consists of nothing more than "listen to the radio".....and its evidenced by the general deterioration in canopy flying skills amongst AFF trained skydivers in the last 10 years.........a culture of dependance on technology has definitely evolved.....in my opinion a "negative" amongst many positives.....total reliance on the radio... A visual signal at 5 grand is something simple for the student to process...a "reminder" or "picture" if you like.......easy to process into conscious thought......a bit different from something received aurally......freefall is not the place to try to translate sounds into action.....what if the student has limited English??.....(I've trained many students from foreign countries whose English is quite limited).....one wrong word, or lapse into slang, or jargon, can throw them completely...... The original poster asked for opinions....all I've done is throw in a FEW of the factors that need to be considered, as he asked.....because you can't just bolt a radio onto an AFF student and chuck them out the door....... Don't recall saying it was impossible....but you seem to imply I am opposed to change, and will be "getting in the way of those OF US who are already doing it"..... OK then....I'm looking forward to seeing how "you are doing it". Please enlighten us all. What system?..... Cost?.... Test jumps done?.... Problems encountered?... Problems solved?.... Training involved?... (both students and instructors).... Radio commands?..... Students successfully using the system....(numbers).... Feedback from students..... I've had many "great" ideas in my time....some of them were fine.....some of them turned out to be "dumb"......because while the theory was fine, practically they were useless....some you use, some you discard......but they all need to be checked out....... Let me know your results please....but I won't hold my breath......... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Ah ha......"Reliable".....the key word.... "Calm soothing voice"..... Of course!!!.......The secret ingredient........ I know shitloads of properly trained coaches, JM's and Instructors....... A VERY small percentage of them can speak in a "calm soothing voice" when the shit hits the fan..........I've heard them in action.....and yes, it should be easy.......but not many people have a good radio manner.....most say too much, and say lots of irrelevant stuff..... Your vocab should be about 10 key words...max... And thats the variable you've got.....which is most likely to cause problems.....even with training.... I'd rather you were the guinea pig, so fill ya boots.......go for it...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

After switching to square canopies for students back in 1987 I realised after one try without them, that radios were essential as an aid for canopy control.....but it was difficult to find a reliable, practical system...... I did find a system that worked most of the time, but it couldn't be 100% guaranteed......some students couldn't hear for the simple reason that their ears popped.....so my training was always based on the premise that the radio didn't exist.....but was a backup... Probably trained around 8000 students using radios after introducing squares.... Even after switching to a new, improved radio system around 1988 there were occasionally problems (tendency of rechargeable batteries to suddenly die with little warning being one of them.....usually exactly at the wrong time). Radio failure under canopy never caused any major problems however...it was made clear to the students not to rely on them, and they were trained to cope easily without them....... An avionics techician made up a system that we tested in FF (came up with the idea in the pub....for possible use as an aid for CRW initially...then extended our thoughts to use it for team RW training, then maybe as an aid for RW training)...... Did about 20 FF test jumps with it with another instructor, and even though it did work enough times to assess its potential, we dismissed it as impractical......mainly because it wasn't 100% reliable (wind noise, static, interference from other transmitters, flat batteries, wrong frequencies, garbled transmissions, loudness, quietness,....to list a few).....but ALSO it was a distraction to clear thinking........which was magnified A LOT if there was any sort of problem.... It was confusing at times, even with two experienced instructors who had carefully planned the dive and knew what to expect......when a problem occurred it was very easy to become "task fixated", and lose track of what was going on around you.....even though we were aware of, and planned for this possibility..... Could a student cope with this?....I think not!!!. I didn't consider putting radios on AFF students, and even if there was a totally 100% reliable system to be found, I still wouldn't.....an AFF student is already at the point of sensory overload on a jump anyway......push them over that threshold at your peril....they have to cope with an awful lot anyway.......altimeters, audible altimeters, plus FF and canopy tasks (they do need a radio for canopy control)...... "Task fixation" is definitly a factor in skydiving accidents, as it is in many aircraft accidents.........I believe it would cause way more problems than it was worth for AFF students.... There is no substitute for simple training, clear signals, and repeating the jump if necessary... A system is fine if it works as planned, however what you must always keep in mind is what happens when it doesn't........and Murphy's Law is always gonna apply to skydiving...... Thats why I think its a dumb idea for FF students......but hey...what do I know???.... Feel free to disagree, as I'm sure you will..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Its dumb for the reasons I posted, plus you gave one yourself.....the ability of the instructor to manage the situation.....what if the instructor has a problem???........it happens.... Verbiosity is just one reason I gave...what I mean is, I know VERY few instructors with the discipline to speak correctly on a radio....a few can do it, but most talk too much...and a lot talk shit.....and most can't speak in a calm clear voice when things are going wrong...... Freefall is not the place to have a student overwhelmed with someone yelling in their ear.....most humans can't handle multiple sensory inputs in normal situations, let alone a first jump......students can't listen and think clearly at the same time...and in FF they need their brain switched on and FOCUSED..... If you haven't trained a student properly before the jump, a radio is not going to compensate for that.......too many things can cause confusion....e.g. multiple pairs of students in the air at once....do you have different frequencies for each pair....or do they all recieve everything on their headsets....confusion city...... I've trained enough students to know that this is a minefield........you need to keep things really simple for the best results......this is an unecessary complication......and thus is an unecessary danger to the student...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I'd prefer Mr J Daniel or Mr J Beam!!!...... Beam me up Scotty!!..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I've done a chamber ride.....the problems are more acute on the descent.... In the chamber ride I did the explosive decompression was not done from "sea level to 25000". There were actually 2 chambers....we were taken to 27000 in one, and the other chamber went to 37000......the at the flick of a switch a vent between the two opened, and the two chambers equalised at 32000........didn't feel much effect in the ears....... There were Air Force doctors in with us to cope with any problems.....which occurred to some people on the descent. In those cases they simply stopped the descent or even went back up a little, then simply brought us down at a much slower rate of descent........... The military refused to do explosive decompressions with civilians in the chamber after a couple did blow eardrums...........although I believe commercial airline pilots were exempted from that ban........this was around 1977.....not sure what the story is today....... Lesson.....do not jump with any sort of congestion in the head...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Never heard of that one....when was that???....I know some guy was planning to beat Kitting record recently, but never heard he did it.....had problems getting to altitude.....Kittinger definitly went over 600 mph..... Another guy, Nick Piatenada (I think) did try in the 60's to beat Kittingers record, but died when his pressure suit failed at 80 grand on his way to altitude........ Incredibly difficult, dangerous and expensive to do....... I'd be surprised if anyones beaten Kittinger yet... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

The main problem with jumping is mainly because of the speed you are doing during f/f...its the rate of change of air pressure...if you can't equalise quickly it is easy to blow an eardrum if you have a blockage in your eustacion tubes.....under canopy is usually not so bad because your descent is slower....but can still hurt because the air pressure is higher closer to the ground..... A lot of airline pilots and military pilots have grommets in their eardrums to prevent incapacitation in the event of an explosive decompression of the aircraft at altitude.....you can have this done.... Talk to a MD who is an aviation specialist, flight surgeon, or Ear nose and throat specialist......they'll sort you out..... Most MD's know Jack about aviation specific problems..... Luck........ My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Kittinger jumped from 102000 ft...1962 I think.....reached 600 + mph with a 6 ft drogue to slow him down.... Part of the space programme...testing escape systems, parachutes, pressure suits..... Awesome achievement...even today.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Dumb idea for F/f....overloading the brain is a big problem....not to mention all the other issues of reliability, clarity, verbiosity, dependance on technology..... Essential under canopy until canopy control is mastered..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

About the only rounds I pack these days are glider or hang glider rigs.....haven't seen any of these new ones at all but I can't see that there would be much of a market amongst the sport skydiving community...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

OK....Bill...and Rob....I'm replying to you both........ so don't take this as criticism....rather as my experience....... I've done over 800 roundie jumps.....including 2 round reserve rides (never had a square reserve ride, despite carrying the thing for 18 years).......and as a rigger I've packed more than a thousand round reserves......front and rear mounted..............and over 2000 square reserve repacks......and about 200 of those packs in total, I've seen used in anger, of which two were fatal........both deployments while entangled with malfunctioning main canopies....one square, one round.......(the square was a tandem....2 dead....) I've thought about this long and hard......and I'm not talking bullshit.......or theory.....so yeah.....I've seen it...... Freesleeve round reserves???????.......you don't understand.......do you...... Canopy slump........if the apex of the roundie isn't tied to the top of the sleeve.....on liftoff....as the pilot chute lifts the sleeve off the container....the canopy slips down inside the sleeve in a ball and locks the sleeve......seen it happen many times with round mains........high speed streamer...... Asymmetric deployment of a roundie (unstable opening) = blown periphery....almost every time....my first mal.....fortunately the reserve went all the way through and inverted completely...so it opened OK, but completely inside out...about a million burn holes......destroyed the canopy.....but a safe soft landing..........can't happen so easily with a square........... A sleeve (or slider, as some bright spark suggested) on a roundie is designed to SLOW down the opening......not something you need at 500 feet.......on a square its not a problem to have a bag and slider.....without them the opening shock would probably kill you anyway, or the canopy could explode........no bonus there!!!!!!..... Why do you think a freebagged round reserve was never invented????.........it was thought of.....but discounted......because it wouldn't work..... You.......who don''t know or understand the physics of how a round opens as compared to a square....need to find out the facts before engaging in public discussions about what is right or wrong...........because ignorance is contagious.........and often fatal...... Square reserves ARE safer.....end of story!!!!!!..........Talk to any rigger who's been around since the 70's....they know!!!!!!!. And.......I would also have no problem jumping a round reserve.........but a square is my preference....every time.....(also don't mind jumping with no AAD......or deploying at 2 grand.....comes with being an old fart I guess.......)...... So there....... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

"what would it take to make it work" (roundie with a freebag)...... About an 80 foot long bridle cord..... Probably not feasible due to the way a roundie opens compared to a square.....also it would slow the opening down enough to make it virtually useless in a low level deployment situation... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

There are an amazing number of posts I've read here that are full of inaccuracies and misinformation..... There is no way in hell that a roundie is superior to a square on normal skydiving operations.....period.....apart from cost.....and that is the worst possible criteria to use when deciding what to get... Perhaps the only time a roundie might be "safer" would be during CRW, and then mainly as a hand deployed tertiary (third) canopy, or as a tertiary on test jumps or intentional cutaways.....or low level base jumps.... or military low level ops....not your run of the mill skydives.... There are several reasons why a square is much better than a roundie.....from jump #1 to infinity.... 1. Freebag....much safer in 2 out situation....or a failure to cutaway a mal situation.... 2. Controllability/steering/landing.....infinitely superior... 3. Reliability....much more likely to open cleanly and quicker....and "if" you are out cold at the time, your descent will be fine because your brakes will still be set.....and there is no inherent malfunction mode, like a lineover..... A square is the best for Joe and Jane Jumper.......believe it..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Excellent story!!!!....Well done to this man.....I'd love to be able to jump at 96 years of age....if I make it that far.....and if you are at the end of your life, what a nice way to round it off...... Quality....... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

This Tandem Master is nothing more than a wanker if he says things like that.....just showing off in front of the whuffo's...... At my DZ he'd be down the road pretty damn fast....... You can tell him he's a tosser from me if you like......for free..... What a jerk!..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Direct bag....no question....also safer if the student goes unstable......nothing to grab, tangle/horseshoe as far as a pilot chute goes.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Which DZ is this in NZ????.....Christchurch Parachute School......Steve Smiths outfit......or somewhere else??...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Is that a Turkey feather there on the intro???... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I'll bet you your dollar...........and raise you another dollar....that Monster comes back with another argument........... Don't know why he asked for advice in the first place.......doesn't seem to want to take any....ho hum..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I'm afraid you are making a mistake here, which someone may take as the thing to do in the middle of a malfunction....specifically, analysing the malfunction you are experiencing...and then deciding what your next action is going to be...... Very bad idea....because in a malfunction situation, one second can be the difference between life and death.......it s been proven time and time again.... You need a well drilled SET procedure that you stick with......which will save your butt in 99.9% of situations that can occur.......as long as your equipment is properly set up, and you deploy in the correct manner at the right altitude.....it works....... The odds of a double mal if you've done everything correctly are so slim as to be negligible......and everyone needs to remember that........ Of course you can do everything right and still die.....but the instances of that are extremely rare.....if it happens to you then it just ain't your lucky day....and I believe your number is up, whether you're skydiving at the time or not..... Messing with mals is a VERY bad idea.......performing your drills quickly and correctly a very good idea......and in skydiving, it has, and always will be so.......history tells us this....believe it. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

OK....... got it........I guess you are adjusting your exit and opening altitudes to allow for the high ground......... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Nate.....Not sure what you are saying here.....either you are confused or I am.....going from what you've said.... Either.....is your exit point above higher ground (a hill) than your DZ altitude??..... Or.....are you not sure how your AAD works???...... Your AAD will fire 750 feet above the altitude where you set it.....if your DZ is 1000 feet above sea level......and you set it on the DZ....it will fire at 1750 feet above sea level.....or 750 feet above your DZ..... Talk to your rigger about how your AAD works....or reread the manual that should have come with it..... / My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Not sure what you mean by... ...... The free bag did its job?.... maybe you mean "fortunate" I know gear is evolving all the time....I've lived through some major evolution in 30 years..... But many of the basic principles remain constant......apart from some minor tweaking here and there......as have the laws of physics, time, and gravity..... Human fallibility remains constant..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....