SkyDaemon

Beautifully said Rhonda. Beautiful and Brilliant. -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

Thanks Nick. Condolences to those who have lost Adam. :-( -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

Sincerest and most heartful sympathies to those whom have lost one of their own. This is a truly dark day... -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

http://kdka.com/local/local_story_294145413.html The writing is awful, but there's some information in it. -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

Helmets, armor and safety gear are very personal choices. While you may have your opinions, others do as well, and their own choices regarding protective gear are theirs and theirs alone. You've, obviously, made your own choice regarding this topic, and no one's asking you to change your mind. You may consider extending the same courtesy and respect to others, as your personal ancedotal example is limited in scope, relevance, and persuasiveness. Events such as the those held in Malaysia are organized events where agreements have been made with the owners of the objects. An aspect of those agreements are that jumpers will follow certain rules and regulations, one of which is wearing protective gear. However, the sport of BASE is not regulated, or really all that organized. Very few agreements are made with the owners of objects, and even then, very few rules or regulations have been imposed. The choice to stuff a piece of nylon and strings into a little container on your back (or to just hold it your hands, unpacked) and jump is a personal decision made by each jumper. While you may be in favor of 'requiring' jumpers to wear protective gear, you have no authority to do it. There are many individuals, jumpers and non-jumpers alike, who post with strong opinions about how other jumpers should conduct themselves in (and sometimes out) of the sport. These desires to regulate the behavior of others tend to lead towards frustration and disappointment. -- An argument that has been made against wearing protective gear (and please understand I'm not championing it, or defending it, merely presenting it) is that body armor can restrict body movement. For example shoulder pads on certain models of body armor can prevent a jumper from easily reaching their toggles or risers. Certain spine protectors can make achieving a good arch difficult. The added bulk of the armor can prevent the rig from fitting properly. Helmets can limit vision and the ability to see thing peripherally. At a romantic level, for some people BASE is about the minimal level of equipment required to achieve human flight, and that minimalism brings pleasure to them. Again, I'm not championing the above, nor will I engage in arguing against any attacks against the above. If you wanted information, now you have some to consider. (if you want an argument, perhaps someone else will provide one. ;-)) -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

I'm not certain that these two conclusions are true. I'd like to offer the following for consideration. I think Nick raises a valid point in that the cost of entry into BASE has been lowered over the course of time. Information about the sport and how to get into it bore a higher cost of entry, in previous years. Therefore new jumpers had to have more original inspiration and motivation to get into the sport. Given the current mainstream media publication of the sport via movies, advertizements, these forums, etc, the mass public has an increased awareness of the sport which didn't exist before. Consequently the skydiving community has an even greater awareness of the sport and (to some extent) is coming to embrace it as part of a natural progression of jumping. Since there is a general increased awareness of the existence of the sport, and a heightened one amongst skydivers, (those mostly likely to want to get into it,) and people are curious beings more and more people are seeking information about the sport. This is where the crux of Nick's ideas lie. In the past, information about getting into BASE was harder to obtain and fewer people were seeking it. Now many people are seeking information about BASE and it's easily available. The fact that the these forums, the wiki, etc, exist is tacit approval and (for some) active participation in a culture that believes in publicizing information about the sport. The fact that site names are loosely masked is a small consolation to the fact that the community itself has published all the information necessary for one to make their first BASE jump, independent of any mentoring. Which, in some ways, seems to be an indirect goal of these forums, wikis, articles, etc. Perhaps these mediums will have reached their peak of success (by some definition) when individuals with no previous canopy experience can read them, teach themselves everything they need to know, order a BASE rig online and get into the sport without having to meet another jumper. At that point it will clearly be the success of the information available, it's exactness and thoroughness. Then one can definitively say that said person would not have survived without it. Although the question is, would they have tried without it? That is the real catch-22 of the situation. Some assume that people with no experience are going to get into the sport with or without this information (and guidance), while others note that the reason people with no experience are getting into the sport is because of this information is so readily available which is to say they wouldn't be in this situation had these boards, wikis, etc, not been so accessible. I think attitudes tend to change with experience as well. New jumpers celebrate and appreciate the methods by which they, personally, entered the sport, and wish to protect them and continue using them, until they feel more comfortable with their jumping. While those who are experienced with good local objects, and no commercial or popularity interests, would likely rather see less publicity about their local objects and perhaps the sport in general. A somewhat interesting concept is that training methodologies mix book learning, lecture, and physical training to teach BASE jumping. Typically these courses are taught at the Perrine (a fine training object with a significantly reduced risk of death or injury). As information more easily available how has that mix shifted over time? What direction is it heading? What other trends are directly (and/or strongly) correlated? BASE maybe undergoing a Malthusian progression toward critical mass. But we'll just see where it goes. It's not any one person's sport and that's part of the beauty of it. :-) (btw I recognize that my own experience is recent and that I hardly qualify as a 'pre-explosion' jumper.) -=Raistiln find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

Good people... it's been too long since the world lost them both. They're still thought about and missed. -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

If I understand correctly, Nick, your original goal with this post was to discuss the short and long term effects of "The BASE Zone" on the sport of BASE jumping. I believe you were trying to poll whether keeping the forum does more good than harm versus more harm than good to the sport. A few of the posts have addressed this question, largely siding in favor of keeping it, while the majority of others have introduced an element of noise (myself included) regarding -how- the forum is run versus whether or not its existence has an inherent positive or negative effect on the sport. There have been comments made along the lines of "Those who don't like here, don't have to come here" which is true of any uncommanded society. However, I don't think the goal was to discuss whether or not people like or don't like "The BASE Zone" (or the way it is run) but rather to investigate the meta-aspects of its existence. This discussion would involve analyzing what the goals of the forum are, how well it accomplishes those goals, and what the overall cost/benefit ratio is for the sport. I'd hypothesize that the answers will be normally distributed and dependent upon individuals': time in the sport, number of different objects jumped, number of friends lost, current level of activity in the sport, and the number of other local jumpers in their 'crew'. The only data points I have are myself and those I've talked to about the topic. I've seen some trends, and am curious if they's accurate across the board. The fact that ~23% have said "Take it down" and another ~26% have said it's "Not an issue" (at the time of this writing) is intriguing. Only a little more than half of the total strongly agree in keeping it up, which is interesting. Especially given that these numbers do not account for those who do not track this forum and have expressed a stronger opinion by non-participation. I respect the fact that at the end of the day it's not a democracy, it's Sangiro's house and he can do whatever he wants with it, although I am curious what people's reasoning behind their vote was specificallly in terms of: Does the BASE Zone help the sport more than it harms it, or harm the sport more than it helps it? -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

The comments regarding the moderation of forums is as old as forums are. Since the early days of BBSs (for those old netters who know what those are) moderators have always been under attack by the members of the community. Over the past 13 years I've been a part of many forums and seen many different styles of moderation, and Tom's is about par for the course. You can find better examples of moderation and you can find worse, although Tom does a reasonable job of moderating this forum. To my knowledge he isn't paid to do so, he doesn't receive any compensation for investing the mountains of -time- he does into providing this environment. In fact it isn't even -his- forum, it's Sangiro's and Tom is volunteering to run it in a manner that is consistent with Sangiro's goals. And yet every day Tom gets up in the morning and spends time in front of his computer reading and moderating everything that comes through this forum, I can't imagine he enjoys it all the time either, but he lives up to his commitment to do it. As with any community: if you don't like the way this one is run, go start your own. If you think -you- can provide a better forum, then go make one. No one is stopping you from forming your own website and forum. If you're curious what's involved talk to Sangiro, or Mick Knutzen. Ask them what their server/colocation/bandwidth bills are like. Ask them how many hundreds of hours go into creating such a forum, and how much work and money goes into their routine maintenance. Strangely, lots of people complain and few actually take action to offer something better... even more impressive few actually leave the environment they complain about. Actions speak louder than words, and in reality they must not think it's that bad... if they did they wouldn't come back. It's akin to constantly going to a restaurant that serves food you hate, complaining about it, and continually going back for more. In the end, most enjoy complaining without taking any action. Most enjoy whining about what 'could be better' without ilfting a finger to make it better. Talk is cheap and internet posts are even cheaper. If you don't like the way things are run, go do it better. :-) Just my unsolicited two cents. -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

Krisanne, You're definitely invited, even if you can't make it ;-) I owe you a phone call anyways. So it's been more than a year, when are you coming north? -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

Found it! Beautiful cliffs in Newfoundland, with a boat ride out. :-) mmm, excellent! Thanks for your responses :-) -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

I'm currently in the Atlantic between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland(those are eastern Canadian provinces) and will be returning to Nova Scotia later, I was curious if anyone knew of any cliffs out here. I remember there was a thread on here awhile ago with some pictures, although the search mechanism designed by the nice folks in British Columbia (Gossamer Threads) doesn't want to hand me the information I'm looking for. Any tips or pointers to the original post would be greatly appreciated. -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

I have a Raven IV modified for BASE and it's been a great BASE canopy. As with any canopy, one has to learn it's limits and understand how it flies. There are some jumps I prefer the Raven on and others I've learned never to take it off again. I wouldn't say one canopy is 'safer' than another, as though your chances of death or injury are reduced by the canopy you fly. I wouldn't say one canopy is more 'dangerous' than another. As DW once told me: "A good canopy pilot can have perfect jumps and landings on even a bad canopy, whereas a bad canopy pilot will always have poor canopy flights and performance no matter how great a canopy you give them.". It's better to become skilled and adept with a canopy you are comfortable with, understand how you fly it, and how it handles and adjust your jumping accordingly. I've met people who believe it's a good idea for new jumpers to experiments with all manner of canopies with the hope of finding a favorite or one that they prefer. This means that new jumpers are constantly jumping with gear they are unfamiliar with. They then attribute early successes and injuries to things like objects, canopies, containers, etc. Finding a configuration that fits comfortably, a canopy of an appropriate size and state of repair, and then jumping that gear configuration until you know it like the back of your hand, gives you some constants in your jumping. It allows you to investigate the other variables at play in a BASE jump and improve your understanding of your own jumping and the sport. In addition it also gives you the delicate understanding of your gear so that you -can- tell the differences between difference canopies. Someone with many jumps on a Raven IV (such as Avery) is going to be much better (and safer) jumper than a newbie with few skydives who just bought the latest and greatest BASE specific canopy. Best of luck. -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

It's a good post... and I have give you some ribbing for it... esp considering the circumstances. Also for the record you're one of the best things that's happened to Canada... right up there with toques, maple syrup, poutine, tortierre, donairs, caesars, Tim Hortons, and the word "eh". -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

Actually there isn't anything worth seeing or doing in North America... you should just stay in Europe. -=Raistlin P.S. The Dutch welfare system apparently still pays you whlie you're overseas ;-) find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

That's been said about many things with regards to the NPS and a multitude of other government agencies... little has come of it thus far. -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

I have a few PADI certs... there's great diving here in BC... there's a 737 on pylons about 100ft down in a bay near here. :-) -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

seth, where is the 310ft jump --Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

When riggers pack reserves they put long 'flags' on their tools (brightly colored pull up cords usually) to help prevent ever leaving a tool in a packjob. They also count all their tools at the end. It's not a bad habit to get into :-) -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

The abby crew is good people. Congrats! Welcome back to Vancouver ;-) -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

The Bruise-light? :-) You don't want one. -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

zilch, zip, zero, none, notta-one find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

I wrote a script that keeps reloading the page until someone responds and then alerts me with flashing lights, a flashing screen, the 'red alert' sound from Star Trek, and a fog horn. -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

Where's the "with a side of post whoring" option? :-) Are you still on the east coast? I hope you're doing great and dinner turns out well. If you're still there at the end of July, we'll see you in Montreal, otherwise gitcherass up to Vancouver :-) -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

Nick, I hope this gets set "sticky" or better yet as an article posted at the top of the forums list. Well said. -=Raistlin find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;