eflynn

"How does it not change anything? You have Blacks that sold blacks into slavery in Africa. And you have Blacks that owned Blacks here.... How am I as a white guy whose family had no slaves owe anything to the decendants of a back man sold into slavery by a black man that was bought by a black man?" First Africans selling each other in slavery and Blacks owning slaves here are two different issues that occurred in two different countries. Yes, Africans sold each other into slavery. That was a smaller part of how Africans ended up here. The larger part is Europeans capturing Africans and enslaving them. Tell the whole story. Second, assuming there were "six Negroes" in Louisiana and "125 free Negroes" who owned slaves what do you think the percentage of all slave owners they comprise during it's 400 year history? A drop in the bucket. Addressing your question about owing descendants of slaves something, I've never in any thread on here said anything about reparations. To me it's tantamount to arguing about who would win in a fight between Captain Kirk and Bruce Lee. It'll never happen so why bother discussing it. Unless of course it could be used as a tool to divide people. Interesting thought.

"Clearly there are strong cultural differences between "White America" and "Black America", but I think there are a lot more similarities than differences. There are a lot of very vocal people in the black community that seem to focus far more on the differences than the similarities." I accept the differences. What do you want me to do besides acknowledge the differences? Why do so many blacks feel that those differences are huge obstacles to overcome? In the past, it was indeed whites who were putting up the walls between blacks and whites. These days, it seems to be the other way around. What's the deal?" Outside of everyone's favorite targets in the Black community, those being Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, name two other "very vocal people" who preach about the differences. Based on what you've said thus far it really doesn't seem like you accept the differences. It sounds more like you think we're all the same, we're just different colors. It's just not that simple. I don't feel like "those differences are huge obstacles to overcome" and neither do friends of mine. If you honestly feel Black people feel that way then I'd say you only know one type Black person. "That is a very interesting comment. I do not mean this in any sarcastic way, but my perception as a 48 year old white boy (and I've always had this attitude) is that if I get smartass with a cop, I'm not likely to get any slack at all because cops will assume that I know better than to pull that kind of stupid shit. Flunking the attitude test with a cop can truly be a bad thing. The one time I have mouthed off to a cop was when the cop was threatening me without reason and I figured I was screwed no matter what I said." Let me tell you about the times I've mouthed off to cops or friends of mine mouthed off to cops. We haven't. Best case scenario they ask you whose car you're driving (I've been asked this question EVERY time I've been pulled over), berate and chastise you, and give you a ticket. Worst case scenario the beat your ass (yes it's happened to me and friends of mine), tow your car, and lock you up until they "drop the charges." I'm not saying the same things don't happen to non Black people. My point is that's more Black people's experience with cops than it isn't. My experience is my reality. "I mentioned Al Queda because the continued divisiveness between blacks and whites in this country is an advantage to them. They see us all as evil, regardless of skin color. We need to be united as a country." I really don't see how it's an advantage to anyone outside the country. When the planes hit the twin towers everyone got upset. Black people didn't just shrug their shoulders and say "Oh well. That's what whitey gets." We live here too, so it affected us the same way. "Years ago, a friend who was very frustrated from dealing with racial tensions in the workplace said this to me. "Let me see if I've got this straight: - Blacks and whites don't get along. - Mexicans and blacks don't get along. - Asians and blacks don't get along. Do you notice a common thread?" I don't mean the above as an attack, but I suspect it is a very common perception among non-black people in this country--whether expressed in those words or not. The perception is that blacks seem to have a lot of hostility toward other ethnic groups and don't seem to be all that interested in letting go of that hostility." It could also be said Whites and Mexicans don't get along, Asians and Mexicans don't get along, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans don't get along... I could go on. The perception you speak of comes from a lack of dialogue in part. If these same people with this perception sat down and spoke with someone they viewed in this light I think they'd come away with a different understanding. It's not always about agreeing. Seeing someone else's perspective is just as, if not more important. "If you really want to get a good discussion going among people who have been working in corporate America for a while, bring up the topic of "Diversity Training". I have heard of "diversity training" being held in a predominately black workplace. Diversity training, from what I've heard doesn't have anything to do with diversity--it has to do with putting a spotlight on how different black people are. To me, that's nuts. Again, I think the focus should be on finding a common ground." I've never been to diversity training so I realy can't comment.

"The other problem with AA is that people are given opportunities they're not prepared for" I disagree. Once you get in you still have to do the work. The attrition rate for minorities is the same as that of non minorities at major universities. There was a piece on 20/20 about AA at the university of michigan that discussed that exact stat.

"Doubt it--he'd be yelling "Kill Whitey!!!" the whole time. Walt" This is so ignorant. Honestly, when was the last time you've ever heard a Black person say "kill whitey" outside of an SNL skit?

"But if Al Qaida had a white man and a black man in front of them and only killed the white man i have a feeling the black man would bitch for feeling left out and excluded." Again, this speaks to your level of understanding of Black people. Or your terrible sense of humor.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Did you click on the link to the article posted in this thread? Obviously not. Here is a snippet: In 1860 there were at least six Negroes in Louisiana who owned 65 or more slaves The largest number, 152 slaves, were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P.C. Richards, who owned a large sugar cane plantation. Another Negro slave magnate in Louisiana, with over 100 slaves, was Antoine Dubuclet, a sugar planter whose estate was valued at (in 1860 dollars) $264,000 (3). That year, the mean wealth of southern white men was $3,978 (4). In Charleston, South Carolina in 1860 125 free Negroes owned slaves; six of them owning 10 or more. Of the $1.5 million in taxable property owned by free Negroes in Charleston, more than $300,000 represented slave holdings (5). In North Carolina 69 free Negroes were slave owners (6). What do you think about that? Assuming it's true, it changes nothing. Assuming it's true, it's still wrong.

"I think it IS that simple. Human is human. Many in the black community seem to have a very separatist, i.e., "us vs. them" attitude yet bitterly complain that they are not treated as equals. I don't think they can have it both ways. Either they can join the party and expect equal treatment or continue to completely reject the system and, as a consequence, continue to feel like outsiders looking in. Either way, it's a conscious choice. We live in a time where as Americans, we cannot afford to be divided. I'm sure Al Queda would gladly kill black Americans just as quickly as the would kill white Americans. How's that for equal treatment?" A human is a human but there are differences. It's naive and short sighted to think we're all the same when there are so many indicators of differences between us. As I've said before in other threads, differences aren't bad and should be celebrated. Where we run into trouble is in trying to treat everyone like they're like everyone else. In some instances that's how things should work but in others it isn't. Example of differences... There's a thread on here somewhere about the craziest thing you've ever said to a cop. As soon as I saw the thread, one of the first things that went through my head was "Being Black you don't get smart with cops unless you want to get fucked up or fucked with." As I read through the thread I couldn't believe some of the things people claimed to have said to cops. They could be exagerrating or just lying, but taking them at face value, there's NO way most Black people I know would ever consider addressing a cop that way. It's different. The interaction is different. We're different from one another. Al Queda has absolutely nothing to do with this as it's an international issue.

"Also, It is a known fact that blacks owned blacks, whites were not the only slave owners. So why is it that fact is rarely discussed? What if the blacks that are asking for retribution or believe society owes them actually come from a generation of slave OWNERS? That would be kind of ironic wouldnt it?" A known fact? Unless you mean Africans enslaved other Africans on the continent of Africa you simply wrong.

"Fix what? There isnt anything broken. We are living in a free society. What was never set up to be fair or all inclusive? I dont understand what you are saying here." You used the term "equality" so I'll stick with that. If that's the objective, that means there are things that need to be changed/fixed/addressed to reach that. My point is, the US was never set up designed, whatever term you want to use, with equality for everyone here in mind. "What still persists today because of slavery? Please give me an example, one that is directly related to slavery." Mental exercise... If a group of Africans fled Africa and reached what we now know as the US at the same time as the group of Europeans fled England and lived similar lives do you think we would be having this discussion? "Knowledge of black people? What knowledge do I need. You bleed red just like I do. You have the same education opportunities I do. What "knowledge" of "black" people do I need?" Oh if it were only that simple. The blood we bleed has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Without even knowing you I can say I've had the same educational opportunities but the world is much bigger than me and you. We're truly different people. If we were all the same then we wouldn't have opposing viewpoints. "I am not accusing, I am simply saying that the black man does not deserve special treatment simply because of his skin color." Re read your posts. You've made numerous accusations.

Can we talk Ebonics too? Walt Speak Ebonics, not talk Ebonics.

"Once again, this is a perfect example of thinking that you and / or the black community is owed something. Guess what, if slavery ended yesterday, or last year perhaps you would have some valid points. But for Gods sakes, the shit ended 150 years ago. How much longer is the black community going to bitch about this. Plenty of other races had it a hell of a lot worse off that the blacks did. Should we also ask the masses that own very large chunks of land to give it up so American Indians can get their retribution for what happened to their generations? Is that really the answer? Hell no... Perhaps Jewish people should be allowed to inject dye into the eyes of Germans so they can see if they can change their eye colors? Will that give them retribution? The black community has GOT to get over this shit. It is as simple as that. As long as racists like Jackson and Sharpton are out there spewing there racist bullshit we will be a society divided by color. There are terms for people like them. That term is a racist. You cant change the past but you can control the future. Living in the past is not going to accomplish anything. The black man is his own worst enemy when it comes to the fight for equality." The fact of the matter is there is no way to "fix it." "It" was never set up or intended to be fair or all inclusive. Creating a level playing field is what Kato's post references. Although slavery ended years ago, its social and economic effects still persist today. In part evidenced by this discussion. I'm curious as to the "plenty of other races" that had it worse than Blacks did (in the US). From what you've written so far in this thread and in others discussing race, it's obvious your understanding and knowledge of Black people, and their views is limited at best. Alluding to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton as voices of the Black community couldn't be further from the truth. There's more to speaking for a group of people than simply being on television. The vast majority of my community would identify with Cornell West well before Jesse Jackson. Do you know who he is? If you really want to understand, then we can talk. If you want to point fingers and accuse, which is basically what you're saying Black people are doing, you'll learn absolutely nothing. And it's "their" not "there."

"There's a lot of bad shit that happened in the past. That was the past. Get the fuck over it. You don't get a free penny just because you're great-great-great-great-grandmother might have been a slave" Telling someone to "get the fuck over it" simply dismisses whatever they're supposed to get over as a minor incident. I stepped on your shoe, sorry, get the fuck over it. While I understand your point, a dismissive attitude isn't going to help us come to an understanding. As far as might have been a slave, the VAST majority of Black/African American people in the US have ancestors who were slaves in this country. The percentage of those who don't is miniscule at best.

As was mine.

I cannot count the number of times I've had a bad day, my gaze suddenly falls on a round mound and for those few seconds everything is okay. Thank you ladies. Thank you.

You see?!!! This is what I'm missing when you don't speak up at the bonfire. That's is a very fine woman. Much better than little tiny Katie Holmes. True enough. My basic point is we're all at least a little different, for a number of different reasons.

"Can you give some conversational topics that White Guys center on and what Black Guys like to talk about and how they diverge so badly? Honest question here - this is a real chance for insight. I had no idea you'd consider someone of another race as different as from an entire planetary species. For me - I like to talk about 4-way, women, what other jumpers are doing. Some people talk about canopies and who's going out with who, etc. We talk about food, movies, etc. Some talk about their families or work." Although you weren't speaking directly to me I feel like I can provide a little insight. The topics that my friends, skydiving and non skydiving, talk about are similar. For example, women. But the specifics can be different which is where they begin to diverge. I'm paraphrasing, but a jumping friend of mine said something along the lines of "Fuck, that Katie Holmes is hot!" He started to go on and on about her and another woman I'd never heard of, and another jumper piggy backed on what he said. The conversation continued and more and more women were added to the list. I had NO idea who any of them were. My non skydiving friends and I could have the same conversation but we would talk about how Kenya Moore's ass looks like a lovely brown mountain, or how Elise Neal would make any man want to settle down. Have you ever heard of Kenya Moore or Elise Neal? Either way, I hope you understand my point. Talking about canopies, 4 way, movies, and generally shooting the shit is cool. But at some point it gets a little surface. It it always the case where I can't have a meaningful conversation with someone at the DZ? No. But it does happen and race is one of the many parts of it. PS You need to see this... www.kenyamoore.com

"I think it's crap, to not feel "comfortable" if you're black/woman/asian/whatever when you show up at a DZ and don't see "your kind." That's just bullshit. A bullshit excuse for not being willing to open up to others who are not exactly "your kind." And yet we whites are the ones called bigoted/racist, etc. I am just as likely to befriend a black person who comes to any DZ where I jump as I am a white." No, it's not bullshit and the arguement isn't that simple. If a Black person shows up at a DZ then they obviously don't have a problem not being around their kind as that's one of the last places I'd go to hang out with other Black people. The fact of the matter is we all have lives outside the DZ which more often than not have a greater influence on who we are. Do I have friends at my home DZ? Yes. Do I hang out with them the same way I hang out with my non jumping friends. No. Not because they're white but simply because outside of skydiving we really don't have that much in common. Everyone likes to have fun but we do it in different ways. Again, not solely because we're different races but that has something to do with it. Differences are good and should be celebrated. It's a lot easier to say it's bullshit for not feeling comfortable when the majority of the people around look like you.

"With regard to blacks, don’t try to understand them. They don’t do very well in our sport." We do just fine in your sport dog.

"The aspiration is to give skydiving notoriety among the Hip Hop/MTV world. This will somehow validate skydiving and bring the sport into the mainstream." Yes of course... I can't count the number of times I've seen performance designs ads in the back of Jet Magazine, sunpath two page inserts in Black Enterprise, and let us not forget the all Black 4 way team that helped launch the new season of MTV's Inferno. Yes, there's definitely a concerted effort to "give skydiving notoriety among the Hip Hop/MTV world." That's right up there with crop circles.

It's a lot easier to do something you're kinda interested in if there's someone who looks like you who does it. It never really mattered to me because it just looked like fun but not everyone is like that. A friend of mine I jump with has an African American co worker he'd been trying to get to jump for a few years. I talked him into it in 5 minutes. He said "Man, I thought there were all going to be crazy like Point Break but they're just normal people. You're normal too."

"OK simple question. You know me and I like to think you know I am not racist. So if during a camp I look at you and say, "shit nigger you are falling FAST!". You would be upset right? Now what if some black guy while we are walking to our cars comes up and asks"Hey my nigger, can I get a lift?" Same outrage, or different?" I haven't addressed this until now because I felt it would muddle the discussion but there IS a difference between someone saying "nigga" and "nigger." So, given your scenario I would be upset at you for reasons I've already mentioned. The random black guy referring to me so casually would bother me for a few reasons. First I'd think "What the fuck is a 'nigger?' Florida is still the most ignorant state in the union." Second I'd think "I don't know you like that so fuck no, you can't get a ride." Is the outrage the same, no. It's different but still outrage. "I found the fact that the kids didn't see an issue as a good sign." Based on what I read in the thread it didn't seem like the mother "blew a gasket." I can understand her concern but I can also understand how the kids didn't see it as a big deal. I agree that there probably wouldn't be as much upheval if they were both of the same race. "Why would the "n" word be different? It most likely is just used by an idiot in both cases." History man, and all the things that are assocaite with the word. Yell "idiot" out loud and yell "nigger" out loud in a public place... Completely different reactions. "Well don't you think your kids could learn that its not taboo? I didn't mean that your Mom or Dad sat you down and told you about it...But more like society as a whole lead to your "learning". I would like to think that in a generation the word will not have such feelings attached to it." Time changes things but I don't know that I'd ever be comfortable with the word used casually by everyone. Maybe generations down the road will see it differently. "Be cool." It's all I know.

Hijacking on important topics is not only OK, but a great thing. It is just a word when you use it, or ODB uses it...But it can never just be a word from my lips? How does race make it OK, or taboo? If you really think that a white man cannot use the word "nigger", then you are the one that is being racist. Lucky for all of us our children will let go of the negativity and strong feelings of that word. Just like the children of such assholes as the ones that burned crosses are not like their fathers. OK, but thats INTENT, not the word. If he had used any other word in that situation he still would have been an asshole. And you still would have had the same feelings. Its intent that needs to go away, not the word. Intent IS going away. Did you hear about the kids in West Palm? White girl and a black boy voted "most whipped". The black kid thought it would be funny to have him in a leash with his GF holding the collar. It was funny, they thought it was funny, their friends thought it was funny....His Mom blew a gasket. I think its GOOD that people can act stupid like that. These kids had NO racial motivations. You might call them stupid becasue they were not upset....I call them better than my parents since they didn't consider race to be an issue. They are equal. They are what we need to be. You can know about history and not live in it. Do you think for one second that I treat you any differently due to your skin color? But I know history. I treat you like a PERSON. Which is more than maybe my parents did, or their parent, and maybe theirs. I know what happend, but TODAY I treat you like an equal. I cannot do anything about the past. OH, I would want my kids to know what happend. I would want my kids to know the things that can happen. But I don't want my kids to know that a word is evil....It was the things attached to that word that were bad. The INTENT that some GA jackass cop used it in. Not the word. If it was the WORD, then you should be just as upset at the rappers using it, and your buddies. You can say it is different...And it is. But as skydivers we don't go around calling each other "Idiots that fall from planes" then get upset when some whuffo calls us that. You can tell them, but not tie such an importance to it. If you really want the word to lose meaning....Get on Snoop for using it, tell your friends not to use it. To get upset only when a white guy uses it IS RACISM. OK, but thats not race related. I don't care. Its a private joke between us. But if you called me "bitch" I would just ignore it, or if you were doing it in jest I would make some slam back at you. If the only reason it is different is because I am white...Then you are encouraging racism. Teach them the history of the term, but don't teach them the hatred you have of it. Let the negative feelings of it die with you. The world IS becoming like he dreamed. That 12 year old and that high school couple are teaching us that the negative feelings we hold on to so dearly are dying with us. I really do hope for the day that all people are treated by WHO they are, not by WHAT. Trust me, I'd rather hate someone for the stupid actions they do than the color of their skin, hair, ect. I hate the GA cop that called you that just like you do. He is an asshole, a biggot, and a moron. One day he will die, and I can only hope his son is not as stupid as he is. But that cop got that hatred from his dad, just like you were taught to hate that word. I look forward to the day that we don't teach our kids to hate based on race. A lot of people think that the day blacks are able to go as far as there skill will let them is the day they will finally be equal. Thats the first step. The final step will be the day that there are no more race related taboo words. Then and only then will people really be equal. The day that people don't try to measure things by fitting them into racial issues. Then we will be free. When those kids can take a stupid picture for the yearbook and not force a recall. Then we will have the dream. And I really think that the next generation will be there. They don't see the problem. I really think we are close. We will be there as soon as those of us with preheld beliefs die. When we look at each other and say "My child will not be a racist". Then we will be there. You know me....Do you think I am racist? If not, why would that word from my lips make you any more upset than if it came from some random black guy? BTW if you want to take this private please do, but I think this forum is just fine as well. "It is just a word when you use it, or ODB uses it...But it can never just be a word from my lips? How does race make it OK, or taboo? If you really think that a white man cannot use the word "nigger", then you are the one that is being racist. Lucky for all of us our children will let go of the negativity and strong feelings of that word. Just like the children of such assholes as the ones that burned crosses are not like their fathers." I never said it was just a word coming from anyone's lips. In fact, I tried to impress the importance of all that's associated with the word on you. I also never said it was okay for one person to use it. I said it was different. Similar to the way there's a huge difference between you calling your female friend a "crazy bitch" and me saying the exact same thing to her. Because a term is construed one way from a particular race and another from another doesn't make the difference a racist one if you're basing that on the classical definition of racism. I understand what you're getting at but I don't feel it's that simple. "OK, but thats INTENT, not the word. If he had used any other word in that situation he still would have been an asshole. And you still would have had the same feelings." I don't feel like you can separate one from the other. He would still be an asshole (and I pray I see him again one day) if he used another word but, no, I wouldn't have had the same feelings. I've been disrespected by people I really couldn't say anything back to but I've never been angry enough, as a grown man, to cry. "Its intent that needs to go away, not the word. Intent IS going away. Did you hear about the kids in West Palm? White girl and a black boy voted "most whipped". The black kid thought it would be funny to have him in a leash with his GF holding the collar. It was funny, they thought it was funny, their friends thought it was funny....His Mom blew a gasket. I think its GOOD that people can act stupid like that. These kids had NO racial motivations. You might call them stupid becasue they were not upset....I call them better than my parents since they didn't consider race to be an issue" This is the first I've heard of the incident so I don't know any more about it other than what you typed. I can understand how kids would find that funny and even some adults. I can also understand how a parent wouldn't want a dog collar and a leash around their son's neck. I don't know what his mother said but it all speaks to having different frames of reference. "You can know about history and not live in it. Do you think for one second that I treat you any differently due to your skin color? But I know history. I treat you like a PERSON. Which is more than maybe my parents did, or their parent, and maybe theirs. I know what happend, but TODAY I treat you like an equal. I cannot do anything about the past." Living in history isn't what I'm talking about. Nor is harping on what happened before I existed. I'm talking about it's continuing impact on what happens today and what will happen in the future. They're connected and related. Often times when someone says "it was in the past," "get over it," "that was years ago," it sounds like it's importance and impact is being dismissed. So while none of us can change the past I think it would be easier to come to a middle ground if the parties involved looked at it from the other's perspective. As I discuss this with you, and anyone who has taken the time to read this, that is my sincere hope. "But as skydivers we don't go around calling each other "Idiots that fall from planes" then get upset when some whuffo calls us that." The logic doesn't quite commute. If someone called me an "idiot who fell from a plane" I really wouldn't care. "You can tell them, but not tie such an importance to it. If you really want the word to lose meaning....Get on Snoop for using it, tell your friends not to use it. To get upset only when a white guy uses it IS RACISM." Snoop is a musician and not someone I look to for how to live my everyday life. Interestingly enough, Snoop started referring to people as "nephew" in place of the term in question. And for the record I've gotten upset when Black people have used it too. "OK, but thats not race related. I don't care. Its a private joke between us. But if you called me "bitch" I would just ignore it, or if you were doing it in jest I would make some slam back at you." I responded to that because you brought it up. "If the only reason it is different is because I am white...Then you are encouraging racism." As I've said, there's more to it than that. "Teach them the history of the term, but don't teach them the hatred you have of it. Let the negative feelings of it die with you." I think in the history of the word is inherently negative and was spawned from hatred. My mother never taught me to hate the term; its meanings, in context, were something I came to understand. Sometimes it's tolerable and others it's not. "You know me....Do you think I am racist? If not, why would that word from my lips make you any more upset than if it came from some random black guy?" I don't have any reason to think you're racist. As to your question, I'll say this... You know how I feel about the word the same way I know how you feel about me not slowing down and catching you with my knee in the tunnel. So if you knowingly said that to me I'd have a problem with it. In part because of everything I've already said and in part because you knowingly said something to me that you knew would upset me. The whole of an "equal" world where people don't see color isn't realistic. We're different. Plain and simple. As a result and inspite of more than just race. But differences are good and should be celebrated (we discussed this in a thread a few months ago), not ignored or set aside. "And I really think that the next generation will be there. They don't see the problem. I really think we are close. We will be there as soon as those of us with preheld beliefs die." I'd like to think we're close but I don't believe it. From working with kids the way I have it seems the gap of "not understanding one another" is getting wider. At the end of the day I realize, as I did before I typed a word in this thread, that there is no equivalent experience for you. There's no "Okay how would you feel if..." that would make you say "Okay, I see what you're saying." This makes it difficult if not impossible for you to HONESTLY understand all of what I've said. With this in mind, this is why this discussion usually ends with "Look, just don't say it." I'm glad to have had this discussion with you and it is my hope that you have greater understanding, wether you agree or disagree, of my point of view. When's the next camp?

You know my intent? How do you know my intent? If you and I were joking around and you called me a "punk" (last I checked I was not gay) or a "jackass" (last I checked I was human) how would that be ANY different than me saying, "What are you smoking nigger?" It is only the way *you* perceive the word. Its just a damn word. Used in jest, it is nothing worse than any other slam. Used as an insult, it is no better or worse than any other insult. It stings because you let it. It clearly is not a terrible word that brings pain if you can use it to each other, and its all over in rap CD's. Personally if I found the term that offensive....I'd find it offensive no matter who said it. Here is a prime example of discrimination. Its OK for you to call your black friends "Nigger"....If I were to call my black friends the SAME damn word, suddenly people would get pissed. If you want the word to go away, stop using it. If you want it to stop hurting you....Stop letting it. I find it really funny that the same word out of a blacks mouth is OK, but if a white guy says it ...BAM, it is the mother of all insults. What the hell sense does that make? I have a reason. He is not racist in the slightest bit. He sees his black friends use it....He hears it on rap CD's...Hell the damn word is all around him. Everytime ODB, Snoop, ect used it no one went ballistic. When his black friends call each other that, no one gets hit. This to me is really the desired result. A one time insult has become nothing. Thats a good thing. Your kids will not have a problem with that word coming from a white guy, UNLESS YOU TEACH THEM IT IS AN INSULT, they will never know. I'll make a deal with you, If God forbid I ever have a kid, I'll teach him that people are people no matter what the color of their skin is....If you have a kid, don't raise him any differently. That way both kids will never learn the history of the term "nigger" and it will not be painful to either....It will become a word. Why? why is it OK for you to call another black man a "nigger", but if I use it it becomes the worse insult possble? How is it any worse than me calling you a "Mother Fucker"? I told a female friend just last night "Bitch, you must be crazy". My GF calls me jokingly "Babyiotch". They are words as jokes they are no worse than any other words, as insults they are no worse than other insults. A true racism free life is one where the INTENT is important, not the word. And the color of the speaker is not important. "Equal" would mean that one word spoken from either a white or black man would carry the SAME weight. If we don't teach our children how to be racist....They will never become racist. This includes allowing a word to be spoken or not spoken by either race, not just one. Then and ONLY then will we really be equal. If you insist that only one race can speak a word, you are in fact encouraging racism. You know my intent? How do you know my intent? If you and I were joking around and you called me a "punk" (last I checked I was not gay) or a "jackass" (last I checked I was human) how would that be ANY different than me saying, "What are you smoking nigger?" There are years of history behind the word differing hugely from "punk" or "jackass." That's how it's differnet. It's not "just a word." Words have meaning and history behind them and as a result of the history behind it in this country it's not just as bad as any other "slam." "It stings because you let it. It clearly is not a terrible word that brings pain if you can use it to each other, and its all over in rap CD's. Personally if I found the term that offensive....I'd find it offensive no matter who said it" It's certaintly capable of bringing me pain and upsetting me. The only time I've been called a "nigger" as an adult was by a georgia state patrol cop. His intent as he sneered through my window certaintly wasn't pleasant. I can't explain the anger and contempt that built up in my chest as I sat there and had to listen to him go on and on about how he hated to see "niggers like you in nice trucks." So yes, I could have sat there and said to myself "I'm not a nigger. Why should I be mad?" But the fact of the matter is he was doing his best to disrespect me. He didn't call me an asshole, or a punk or a jackass for a reason. He knew what he was saying and why and he knew how it would affect me. That was an excercise in power. "I know you're mad but what are you going to do? You have to sit there and take it." You know me and know what I look like... There's no way he would have said that to me if we were simply two people standing face to face. "I have a reason. He is not racist in the slightest bit. He sees his black friends use it....He hears it on rap CD's...Hell the damn word is all around him. Everytime ODB, Snoop, ect used it no one went ballistic. When his black friends call each other that, no one gets hit. This to me is really the desired result. A one time insult has become nothing. Thats a good thing. Your kids will not have a problem with that word coming from a white guy, UNLESS YOU TEACH THEM IT IS AN INSULT, they will never know." Perhaps not racist but definitely ignorant, and that's no excuse. During the course of the interview they explained they heard the word in music not from their African American friends as they "really didn't have any." Do I hold him completely at fault, no. Teaching children to think and analyze is of paramount importance. Someone missed the boat on this one. Not knowing it's an insult doesn't make it not an insult. I would rather my children and your children have a full understanding of the word rather than letting them "never know." "I'll make a deal with you, If God forbid I ever have a kid, I'll teach him that people are people no matter what the color of their skin is....If you have a kid, don't raise him any differently. That way both kids will never learn the history of the term "nigger" and it will not be painful to either....It will become a word." That's not a deal I'd be interested in. One I don't want kids but two, and more importantly, it's crucial for people to have a broad understanding of things. Never telling them would make them ignorant. "My GF calls me jokingly "Babyiotch". Another difference... There's no way my girlfriend is calling me anything close to "bitch." "Why? why is it OK for you to call another black man a "nigger", but if I use it it becomes the worse insult possble? How is it any worse than me calling you a "Mother Fucker"? I feel like I've already addressed this but let me try again... I'm not nor have I ever said it was okay. I said it was different. You might call a family member a "stupid mother fucker." If some random person calls him a "stupid mother fucker" it's a completely different story. I feel like that's a general way of looking at things that holds true more than it doesn't. "If we don't teach our children how to be racist....They will never become racist. This includes allowing a word to be spoken or not spoken by either race, not just one. Then and ONLY then will we really be equal. If you insist that only one race can speak a word, you are in fact encouraging racism" "Teach" would be the operative word here. Ignoring the history behind something isn't teaching. It's ignoring. So my friend and coach, if a child "never learns the history of the term" he hasn't been taught anything. People of different races being ignorant of one another's culture and history very often leads to racism. Quoting MLK doesn't really serve to illustrate your point. Again, looking at the broad picture, HE began to conclude that while in theory it's a nice idea, the reality of the matter is/was very different. If you're wondering how/where I got this from I graduated from Morehouse College... the same college he graduated from and studied his writings in my freshman history course. Rather than hijacking the thread or turning this into a yelling match, pm me if you want to continue discussing the topic. I'm not here to have anyone agree with me; Simply to illustrate another point of view.

Well: Negro: Whats wrong with that...Like you said they have the "United Negro College Fund"...so I don't see how they can find it offensive when they use it for a fund. Colored: What about the NAACP? How can it be "bad" if the have a group dedicated to it? Black: Well, they are not really black. But then again I am not really white either, and it seems they don't have a problem calling me white. I like the old Star Trek episode where the Andorians called Kirk "Pink Skin" (OK the fact I knew that scares even me). Nigger: Well if they want that term to die....Maybe they should stop using it? My Grandmother called Blacks "Darkies"...She was in no way racist, but in the small town she grew up in thats what they called black people. She was too old to change with the times and in the small farm town she lived in no one cared....But it made me laugh everytime she said it, and if we tried to correct her, she would just look confused. "Well, they are darker". Addressing the terms "negro and colored:" Boston College... Technically it's a university as it has graduate programs but the name has been retained because it's part of the legacy of the school. The same could be said for the NAACP and the UNCF. Addressing the term "nigger:" You have to examine the intent of the word as it's used. When we say it to each other there's a completely different intent than when it's said to an African American from a non African American (if you prefer Black okay, but focus on the point I'm making rather than which term I'm using to refer to myself and those like me). The term will never "die" or go away so it's important to understand why it hurts, stings, incenses, when it comes from other groups of people. In a nutshell, we started using the word to remove it's inherent power. The inherent power came/comes from it's initial intent and meaning. I remember watching a piece on 20/20 about the use of the word. They interviewed a group of non African American kids and their basic understanding of the word, it's meaning, it's intent was summarized by a 12 year old "It doesn't mean anything bad to an African American anymore. It did in slave times but that was a long time ago." I can still only partially fathom how he and his group came to that conclusion. One he's a kid and two... he's a kid. I still wonder how many adults feel this way. I every so often have to check someone on the use of the word and explain that it's simply not the same coming from different people. The closest example I can give, which is miles away, is a woman saying "hey bitch" to her female friend versus a man saying "hey bitch" to his female friend. It's just not the same. As far as your grandmother's comments I understand she was born and raised in a different time and that was normal given her circumstances. What I don't understand is why you laughed or what you found funny about it.

As usual I learned a gang of stuff, improved my flying, and met cool folks. Thanks for everything and I'm coming back at 205 next time. Count on it.