kiltboy

I edited some of the text but if you can follow the link to the whole story where they appear to have found similar stuff 18 months ago in Basra. Looks like it was training material. http://www.drumbeat.mlaterz.net/March%202003/Sarin%20kit%20found%20by%20British%20troops%20033003a.htm March 30, 2003 The chemical appeared not to be a sample of Sarin but some sort of simulator used to test if Sarin was in the atmosphere. Nevertheless it was marked “dangerous to humans if exposed for ten minutes without a respirator”. The discovery was made in an Iraqi ordnance facility south of Basra in territory now controlled by coalition forces. “Until further tests are carried out on the vials of chemicals we have found here we do not know exactly what the material is,” Captain Kevin Cooney of the Joint NBC Regiment said. “To my eye it looks like training equipment to teach people how to identify if there is something like Sarin in the air and what to do in the event of a nuclear attack. Perhaps the most worrying thing were two packets of thin, glass vials, each containing some coloured crystals, apparently with instructions on how to use them for detection of nerve agents, including “Sarin, Soman and V-Gases”. The directions indicated how the vials could be broken and the vapour in some way pumped into a small hand pump which was then filled with the atmosphere that was to be tested. A certain colour change in the chemical appeared to the indicator of the presence of Sarin, one of the most sinister and dangerous nerve agents, believed by western intelligence agencies to be in Saddam’s arsenal.

I wouldn't say it was decon kit. I could see it being a training kit as the packet label state Sarin/soman and v gases i.e nerve agents. Did the Iraqis train with live agents during the Iran/ Iraq war? Aside from whe they actually used them obviously. The UK (and I'm assuming the rest of NATO) has three colour detector paper that has a different reaction to nerve, blister and blood agents but I've not read the pamphlet in a while so the details escape me. It's conceivable that the vials are training stock that are left over from years ago. There's a full NBC kit in my parents closet that's a left over from when I was in the reserves. No combopens or naps tablets but the rest of it is there. David

Yes they are.

I remember reading that there were arms dumps in Iraq stretching over several square miles. If I recall the rhetoric properly, there was no need to guard the arms dumps as the coalition would be welcomed as liberators. The WMD sites under monitoring (IAEA, UN) should have been a different story given the reasons for the invasion. The post-invasion plan would appear to have been a bit poor and more information on how poor is coming to light. David

I'd say a political judgement should be good enough as he consulted Parliament. It was debated in the commons so Parliament should hold him accountable. There were major problems with the intelligence community and the way that the intelligence was presented to the PM. I do feel that professional intelligence officers should have known better and should have been able to put the proper weight and caution on the intelligence presented. I believe that the PM should also have questioned the intelligence chiefs to clearly understand what was being presented. On that point I feel he failed to question and heard what he wanted to hear. That I believe is a failure in his duty as PM to be fully aware of the issue before he committed troops to war. War should be the most serious decision a PM makes and he should be fully aware of the situation. Incidentally the troops that went were lacking in ammo and equipment which I find disgusting I also find the latest round of defence cuts to be crazy. David (Brit in the US)

Yeah the book was a lot better especially the way the President went to pieces. The whole affair with the National Security advisor added to the flavor of events with the decision making etc.. David

"The Sum of All Fears" Watched it this past weeknd. David

Certainly a very just cause but I had to rip the attachment off of another web page. David

So I take it the issue is that the muslim community isn't outraged enough by what happened in Russia? I know little of the Islamic religion and it's different branches but it seems that it is the extremists that are resorting to terrorism and not the mainstream (I believe that there are extremists in all religions). I think the mainstream muslim community is outraged but I feel they are scared to voice that opinion because of the current political climate that is painting all muslims with the same brush as the extremists. just my 2 cents. As for suicide bombers, well that's due to religion and the promise of direct entry to paradise with martyrdom. Some other terrorists will die for their cause but it's a lot easier to convince someone to become a suicide bomber with the promise of heaven/paradise than it is to persuade someone to do it for a cause. Self preservation and wanting to survive to see victory etc. David

Just out of curiosity how would the UN enforce those resolutions when it has no armed forces? I thought that the member countries submitted resolutions, voted on them and then provided troops. I view the UN as an arena for political debate between countries (a world parliament kind of deal) but its the responsibility of the member countries to abide by the resolutions and to cooperate with them. I see it as the UN can do nothing IF THE COUNTRIES that make up the UN decide to do nothing. David

I'm pretty sure the UK will send some guys though god knows where they'll get them from. Aid to Sudan has been debated in Parliament recently and given that the UK sent guys to Rwanda (similar circumstances) I would expect that the UK will send some troops once the UN passes a resolution. David

Unfortunately according to the Independent story Hans Blix, the IAEA and the CIA said that the Uranium claim was inaccurate. A former diplomat, Joseph Wilson, visited Niger in 2002 on behalf of the CIA, and reported that there was no evidence that Saddam had sought to buy uranium from the country. George Tenet, the CIA director at the time, declared that the Niger claim was "not tenable". And in last week's damning senate report on pre-war intelligence, a memo by a senior CIA official was revealed which said: "We told Congress that the Brits have exaggerated this issue." Mr Blair's Iraq dossier claimed Saddam "sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa, despite having no active, civil nuclear programme that could require it." But the IAEA points out that it would have been impossible for Iraq to acquire uranium from Niger without this being discovered. The country's entire output at the time came from two mines controlled by a French company, and its entire output was pre-sold to France, Japan and Spain. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=540446 David

I thought the State of the Union Address stated that the British had intelligence on Iraq attempting to get uranium from Niger. Prior to that statement I believe the CIA had investigated the British claim and found no evidence to support the British claim. I also thought that the documents had been shown to be forged. Why then would a President state what was factually correct (i.e. the British claim to have intelligence showing that Iraq is trying to get uranium) when his own intelligence agency had investigated the claims and found nothing and the other documents were forged? Maybe not lying but possibly used to provoke an emotional response of fear/anger when there was cause to doubt those claims. Provoking fear and anger to generate support for a war? Just a thought. David

Ahh yes memories. I ended up keeping the bottom of the mag on my right hip so I knew it was there. David

Turns out the IFF transponder failed and the battery then identified it as an incoming threat. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/norfolk/3714251.stm I believe this time round that US troops (small forward air control type groups) were deployed with the UK forces to assist with air strikes and this helped reduce the number of friendly fire incidents. Some still happend unfortunately. David

I need to find the report on that incident (I had read it before) but I've since lost it. Seemed as though the pilots were on speed and just forgot about SOPs for the situation. The flight leader lost command of his wingman and a few other screw ups contributed. A-10s and warriors & scimitar AFVs seem to have a recurring problem. David

We're already here! Broadsword calling Danny Boy, Broadsword calling Danny Boy. Over. David

I can only think it was for the money and that they didn't quite think ahead. They came out close after the prison pictures were released and I wonder if one of them thought it up after seeing them. David

Not planted. A left over from the Iran/Iraq war that was lost due to an admin cockup? Yes. Placed amongst other standard shells because of a lack of markings? Yes. Looted from the same depot as lots of standard munitions? Yes. Intended to be an explosive part of an IED? Yes. Intended to be a nerve agent as part of an IED? No. David

As a follow up to what Ron has said Sarin is volatile so its classed as a nonpersistent agent. The vapor is more dense than air so it would stay close to the floor meaning there's less chance of inhalation. It could have sank below the train platforms so removing it from other potential casualties. As a liquid it would have taken longer to evaporate than as a mist because of the surface area. David

It could have been for the money and they could have been encouraged to do it. i.e. It's a great story lads but have you got any pictures to help sell it? David

I think Morgan should swing myself or live in the tower for a while at the least. He saw what he wanted to be true as did the many people who believed the photos were real. It looks as if the photos are making life more difficult for the guys out there. The Argylls and PWRR ended up fixing bayonets at one point when they were ambushed. Hopefully they can try and calm down their part of Iraq before it gets really bad. David

What should be more worrying is the fact that a decent university undergrad chemist should be able to make this stuff. The information is out there and was widely available pre 9/11. A left over munition that was unnacounted for is not the threat to the US that people should be worried about. Just a thought but Chechnya was probably a better market for WMD material pre the Iraq invasion. The break up of the soviet union left stuff all over the place (I believe the US is paying for the security to keep track of it now) and there is a bit or a radical terrorist problem in that country that would make it easy to acquire some. David David

Its possible that there were a couple of shells unaccounted for because of poor admin. Those unaccounted for shells could be mixed with standard munitions. They were then looted along with the conventional rounds and used as a standard explosive in this event. This is not evidence of a credible currently functioning (until last year) program. More likely its a left over from the Iran/Iraq war that was unaccounted for IMHO. David

I'm thinking that this is a conspiracy theory too far. Berg's body had been found decapitated prior to the video being released. The orange jumpsuit may have been in response to the AQ held in gitmo. David