chuckakers

Yes, but people being who they are..... You kick (couple of seconds), awaited response (couple more seconds), kicked again more vigrously trying to ellicit response (couple more seconds), and awaited response (couple of more sceonds). Easily someone could spend ten seconds focused on one canopy and not scanning for other threats. The radio analogy is fair at best. You can be plane-specific as to who you see or do not see and who you are talking to. Just because you are talking on the radio does not mean you are not scanning the sky with your eyes, you can listen and watch at the same time. And everyone nearby is on the same channel, hearing where traffic is located. And do you really kick your legs on final at every canopy you see? Because at Eloy or Perris (or any other busy DZ), that would be like going to Jazzercise! top You are clearly taking this to the extreme to fit your argument. No one said we should leg wave to every other canopy in the sky, just the traffic that could be a factor. Additionally, mutual visual confirmation is typically not needed in the last few hundred feet as by then everyone should already be flying a predictable pattern. Mutual visual confirmation is most valuable between opening and entering the pattern where there is no specific flight path for anyone. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Forget it, Bill. These folks will argue against this long-standing general aviation best practice until everyone is blue in the face. Some people just refuse to accept good ideas unless they think them up. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Some people never stop. Using your logic, we shouldn't even look for traffic because we might turn toward it by accident. Give it a rest, already. If you don't want to confirm visual identification of traffic with a simple mutual leg wave, don't. It seems to work nicely for those who do. Geez brother, have a drink. Oh no WAIT - DON'T! You might spill it - or worse, you might drop the glass and it might break, and you might fall on the glass and cut a major artery. And the ambulance might have a wreck on the way to help you and kill a family in a car taking their new litter of adopted kittens home. Geez. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

And you don't even have to "kick". I usually just extend one leg well forward and bend the other one backwards at the knee toward my butt. It creates a position that is recognized as a gesture to the other jumper and usually met with a like-kind response. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

That's the way I've always looked at it too. Just a quick added word-to-the-wise though on this ...be careful to also not allow that "okay - they've seen/acknowledged me" to also allow you to so completely dismiss that other acknowledging canopy/canopy pilot, to the point that it bites you in the arse. +1 Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

I disagree and so does Bill Booth. He did the math in a previous reply and came up with a delay figure during a real-world cutaway of 1/30 of a second, and said that calculation was using a pull speed that is actually slower than he estimated a person would actually make. Converting that - we're talking about a .03 second delay OR LESS. That's a mere third of a tenth of a second. Clearly not enough of a delay to make a bit of difference in the "RSL side releases first by design" argument. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

It wouldn't matter if that was all there was. But there is more within the compression of the long housing. That housing can compress as much as 6 to 8 inches if the cable is unlubed and the loop is tight holding the cable at the riser. I have had it happen to me in the air. This means that even with the cutting differential quoted, the difference would be inadiquet to prevent the right side from releasing if the left side locks up. Reserve out Main in tow. I agree on both points of your points. 1.) a 2 inch difference in cable length is by itself meaningless under normal operating conditions, and 2.) all manufacturers should consider using non-compressible cable housings. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Well now that would be stupid. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Counter-rebutted: Direct from the horses mouth Yes, it was straight from the horse's mouth. And as I said, during a mal the pull is so fast relative to a measly 2 inch difference in cable length make virtually no difference... "In truth, the 2" differential really doesn't matter...." Bill Booth In other words... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=4187022;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC; backatcha Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Slowly pull the cutaway cable on a (single-side) rsl equipped rig - disconnect the rsl first LOL - and see what happens. No one pulls their cutaway cable slowly during a mal...the only time it matters. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

+1...unfortunately. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Listen up kids. Bill knows what he's talking about. This issue isn't so complicated. If the traffic is close enough to worry about it, it's close enough to communicate with for safety. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

John, I am sure you do not have any of those problems because everyone can see you with your baggie suit and you will not steer into anyone under your paracommander and your can hear everything through your frap hat. Sure do miss those good old days. John jumps a pro-tec, silly boy. He also jumps a ripcord, and it really freaks out the "now-genners" when they see it in its pocket directly over his cutaway pillow. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

I don't buy that one. Collins' Lanyard is simply pulling the left side release cable. It has nothing to do with the left riser leaving. What is Collins Lanyard going to do if the release cable is already pulled, but the left riser is still connected to the rig?! That's right....NOTHING. The ONLY RSL system I know that make sure the reserve pin stays on it's place until the BOTH risers leave is the French LOR2. Blue skies ETA Might want to check out user names before replying. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

This is why your cutaway cables are different length, so the 'NON-RSL' side is disconnected first..... Not true. Your cutaway cables are designed to release both 3-rings at the same time when you cut away. The different cable lengths are simply meant to accomodate the design of the rig and the single-handle release, as the right cable goes in a straight line to the right 3-rings and the other has to go all the way around the yoke and then U-turn back up to the left 3-rings. Even if the cables were different lengths to make the risers release one at a time, the difference would be so slight it wouldn't make a difference. If the non-RSL side hangs up it doesn't matter if it happens at the same moment the RSL side releases or a split-second earlier or later. Either way you will have a "two out" situation. absolutely incorrect. The specs say to have the RSL side cable to have more excess. quick search shows this doc from CPS : http://www.cpsworld.com/tech_pdfs/manuals/PUB-24-R6.pdf where section 3.3.1 is of note There's nothing in that document that indicates WHY those excess cable length measurements are prescribed the way they are. Because a cutaway handle is extracted rapidly during an emergency, a measly 2 inch difference in excess cable length will have very little affect on the moment of each 3-ring release activation. It's more likely that the longer excess cable is being prescribed on the RSL side to minimize the possibility of the RSL side activating the 3-ring first during an unintentional pulling of the cutaway cable when it may happen slowly or partially. Under those conditions it would be possible for the RSL side to cutaway well before the non-RSL side or to be the only side to cut away in the case of an accidental partial pull. Adding the extra length could make the difference in that circumstance. I assure you a 2 inch difference in excess cable length will make very little difference in the moment of release between the 2 sides during a real and intentional cutaway. Do the math. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

I htink Ski is right. Try a SLOW pull on your cable, you should on most gear and with properly lengthed cables, have one side release prior to the other. Always the same. When was the last time you pulled a cutaway handle slowly during a mal? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

That gal is the same as the folks who think they MUST be on final by XXX feet - taking a good idea to a ridiculous extreme. Obviously at 500 yards out communication would be unnecessary. As a proponent of visual communication under canopy, I only advocate doing it when you are close enough that the other jumper could actually be a factor to you. Did you mention to her that at 500 yards you couldn't even see her waving her legs? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

You can't avoid what you can't see - as in someone above you. There are many times when 2 jumpers are more or less on level and could signal that they see each other, and then become not on level - like when one does a spiral to create vertical separation or the two canopies have different loadings. Using your argument of not caring if the other guy sees you (and therefore never bothered to confirm a mutual visual), you could find yourself the low man after you had the opportunity to communicate. In that scenario you are a sitting duck, waiting to be taken out by the guy you didn't care about communicating with when you could've. Remember, it's the things you do that you don't have to do that will make the difference when it's too late to do anything about it. As for a jumper getting so preoccupied with communicating that they fail to keep looking and avoiding other traffic, that person shouldn't be in the air in the first place. Canopy safety requires multi-tasking and anyone who can't do that should choose a less tasking hobby. BTW, I'm not talking about looking around all over the place and waving at everyone in the air. When I talk about waving, I am referring to doing it when other traffic could be a factor. While I have heard many, many times a jumper tell another jumper after a near-miss "I thought you saw me", I have never heard ANYONE discuss how a close call was CAUSED by a mutual communication. That's enough of an argument for me. Aircraft pilots confirm visual ID on other aircraft constantly through wing wagging, mutual radio calls, and even by confirming with air traffic controllers that they "have a visual on the traffic". It works, and given our miserable record of canopy collisions I think we should all consider using it. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

When I wave at someone else I'm also looking at them and when they see me do it and do it back they are obviously looking at me or they wouldn't know to return the gesture. That's solidifies the message pretty darn well. When I wave while looking at the other person and they wave back while looking at me, that's NOT ineffective communication. That a clear confirmation that we see one another. It's very clear what is being said and removes any doubt that both pilots are aware of the other's position. As I said before, I've been doing it and teaching it for years and have not heard even ONCE that anyone was confused about it. If the person waving their legs is looking the other direction when they do it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out they are waving at someone else - and that's easy to confirm by looking to see what they are looking at. And what they are looking at might just be someone you didn't see in the first place! Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

This is why your cutaway cables are different length, so the 'NON-RSL' side is disconnected first..... Not true. Your cutaway cables are designed to release both 3-rings at the same time when you cut away. The different cable lengths are simply meant to accomodate the design of the rig and the single-handle release, as the right cable goes in a straight line to the right 3-rings and the other has to go all the way around the yoke and then U-turn back up to the left 3-rings. Even if the cables were different lengths to make the risers release one at a time, the difference would be so slight it wouldn't make a difference. If the non-RSL side hangs up it doesn't matter if it happens at the same moment the RSL side releases or a split-second earlier or later. Either way you will have a "two out" situation. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Sorry DB, a simple leg wave doesn't confuse anyone - except maybe you apparently. I've been jumping for 26 years and using the technique for 26 years. I have never once heard anyone say a quick scissor kick confused them. Not sure why a few folks insist on dissing something so simple and effective. Of course some folks think we need to get beeped at to know when to turn in the pattern too. Geez. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Your comment makes it sound like you think two pilots who see each other is somehow more dangerous because the pilots would then fly dangerously close to each other. That's like saying if you see a car coming at you, you would then hug the center line. Makes no sense. It isn't about keeping distance. That's expected anyway. It's about knowing the other pilot sees you and you see him or her. Knowing that your position has been identified by the other pilot frees you up to look for other traffic that may NOT see you. Additionally, if you are focused too much on staying away from someone who hasn't confirmed they see you, it is much more likely that you could run into someone else that you never saw. It's about the elimination of the unknown while flying in what amounts to uncontrolled airspace. Pilots of aircraft do the same thing using mutual radio calls announcing visual contact with other aircraft and it works. Air traffic controllers even use this method by asking the pilots of 2 nearby aircraft to confirm identification of one another. This is a "best practice" in aviation in general. Not sure how anyone would think we are the exception. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Louis L'Amour was a fiction writer. So that precludes him from making non-fiction statements? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

You forgot.....MP3 players for the brain-dead and digital altimeter beepers in the helmet to tell them when to turn. Not to mention today's faster canopies create a lot more wind noise, reducing hearing ability. Kicky, kicky folks. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Do we wave at each other on the highway? I've seen it done and my thoughts have also been... if you don't cut across the landing pattern and go with the flow of traffic... would there ever be a need for the leg-kicking for those situations other than, OH SHIT. Kinda like a car horn to a fuck up. If we're all using the car horn... after awhile nobody pays attention. Unlike driving where lane markings dictate vehicle positioning and laws tightly control movement, there are an infinite number of variables while flying canopies, especially above "pattern" altitude where there is no set way to fly. There have been many collisions and many times more near-misses from "I thought you saw me" syndrome. Using visual signals under canopy is a way to communicate traffic identification, much the way pilots wag their wings at each other or more commonly use radios to verbally communicate traffic identification and response. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX