Enrique

so your claim is that Warped (and his ilk) 1 - never questions orders 2 - doesn't read newspapers 3 - doesn't listen to the news 4 - doesn't understand history why you (and your ilk) obviously do Rather than a more respectful position that he (and his ilk) have the same information and have come to different conclusions than you have, even if they do seem very apparent to you. It seems that "diversity" of thought is not something to be celebrated. Only cosmetic diversity is important? This might be why all the people in Bonfire hate SC. It's a terribly condescending, arrogant stance that so many take here. I never said that. Please read the message. The point of the message is that both of us have sources of information that are biased. The government tells their soldiers one thing, the media tells the rest of the world something else. Neither the soldier nor the civilian know the real truth behind the Iraq invasion. I am not calling him or anybody else ignorant by any means, I am saying that, save for a very small group of people (top governmental officials), all of us, military or not, are kept in the gray.

... the point being that neither him, you or me know the entire truth. You follow orders without questioning them, we read the newspaper and listen to the news. Oh, and we also study a bit of history to have a broader image of what experience has shown.

And you blindly believe everything that your government tells you... because that is your job, of course. Or do you enjoy the benefit of full disclosure from the government?

Hey, Presidents don't lie, they are only misinformed by their staff!

Isn't that exactly what the US does with their bombs? You're not going to tell me now that your bombs discriminate between insurgents and terrorists, bad guys and good guys, civilians and military, are you?

... only 3 months to go.... tic.... toc.... tic ... toc

Global warming is real. The attached pic proves it.

... what he said!

Because our purpose in life is not to nose around in other Country's business and tell them how they should rule themselves . Ah, I see...but it's fine for you to say that the USA should... as long as it's something that YOU approve of... I AM NOT SAYING THE US SHOULD! I am actually saying that the USA should butt out of Iraq and every other Country in the world they have been nosing around in: Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., etc., etc.,

Because our purpose in life is not to nose around in other Country's business and tell them how they should rule themselves .

... and the US has the right to impose democracy in a Country other than the US??? We didn't write the Iraqi constitution, they did... nice try, though! What I mean is that the US has no business enforcing the Iraqi Constitution, as the Iraqis have no business enforcing the US Constitution. The Iraqi people have proven that they can fight against a big bully (whether it being the US or Saddam), so let them fight their own battle, let them enforce their own laws and have their own fight for democracy. Someone else pointed out that there is a shit load of violations going on in several Countries of Africa and... why doesn't the US go there?... does it see no benefit?

... and the US has the right to impose democracy in a Country other than the US???

Hayfield just wrote this in another string: "The politicians fuck things up and soldiers get stuck with the tab." I think that quote represents what I am trying to say here. I clearly understand that some sacrifices must be made in order to achieve a goal (such as killing OBL), but when the number of lives lost surpasses the "estimated casualty quota" by SOOOO much, and the invasion is delayed from 1 week to more than 3 years, the message the US is trying to send becomes a little bit hazy in the eyes of the spectator.

Why did it escalate to what we have now? I don't view in the way your question frames it. I was simply responding to a post SpeedRacer made. If the origin of the current US/IRAQ conflict stemmed from Saudi Arabia allowing US and coalition troops to stage the liberation of Kuwait, what do you think made OBL's rage grow to the point of attempting ongoing attacks not only against the US, but against the entire coalition forces.

Simple questions for you: Have the war efforts been efficient? Have they been effective?

Why did it escalate to what we have now?

Yes, I do know. The strategy sucks. Read post #1 and the link. More soldiers killed at war than civilians in 9/11 If I recall correctly it was you who said something along the lines of "you don't get to control what other people post... deal with it" I simply ask that you don't turn this personal, it is an open and public discussion about a topic that interests other people in the forum.

I am in favor of finding out why the hell Iraq hates the US so much and putting an end to it. It doesn't only affect the US, it affects the rest of the world as well. Remember, you are not alone in the planet and, although the US does now, it will not rule the world forever. History shows that all great empires have fallen. It is good policy to make friends and not enemies.

You started this entire thread with speculation: "maybe if the US stops intruding in other Country's business, things will get better." Look in the mirror. That is a quote I borrowed from Speedracer. Read the post again and you will see.

The effort to get Bin Ladin hasn't failed yet - we're still pursuing him. In order to be a failure, we would have to give up. We haven't. The effort to get Bin Laden failed when the original plan was not to exceed one week and, after a few years, you are still looking for him. That, my friend, seems like a failed attempt to me.

Do you agree or disagree that the number of US soldiers killed in Iraq exceed the number of civilians dead during 9/11? If you agree, do you think it is worth it?

Fixed it for you. ...and if we had done that, Iraq would have invaded Saudi Arabia next, and possibly would have moved on Jordan and definitely would have attacked Israel. Gawain, you don't know that for sure. I recall that you are the guy that always asks for solid documentary evidence supporting every post made in this forum, so why base your statement solely on speculation. And even if you did know, wouldn't that be Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel's business and not the US?

Precisely my point when I hear the statements by GWB! The hatred did not originate spontaneously.

I am not saying that you should have turned the other cheek. My point is that you (the US) allegedly went after Bin Laden following the 9/11 attacks, but when that effort failed, the sights were turned to Saddam and Bin Laden was almost forgotten... that the numbers of dead U.S. soldiers are now higher than the death toll of 9/11 and that doesn't seem like a good strategy.

Lets not open the cartoon subject, because when Mexicans issued the Memin Pinguin postage stamp, certain Americans were outrageously offended. Nobody was killed, but still, the reaction was huge! Yes, however the subject is: how many AMERICAN lives have been lost IN ADDITION TO 9/11. Almost 3,000 were lost due to the 9/11 attacks, and then the U.S. "retaliates" with 3,000 more deaths of its own!!! I respect your courage and patriotism. It is clear that you are following orders. The question is: are the orders you are receiving justified? Are you still pursuing the same goal you were immediately after 9/11? IMHO, the answer is, no.