skydance1954

Could happen, maybe, it's a good idea. However, there's still one factor that's not been discussed here. With the (legitimate) focus on how to get the various DZOs to perhaps co-operate in such a venture, no one has thought to consider the average skydiver. You're all assuming that all fun jumpers are willing to automatically come to the Boogie that weekend. Well, what if that's not the case? I submit that there is possibly a significant percentage of the fun jumpers that would not want to come out to the boogie at any given year. Now you're suggesting we set up an environment where they have no choice. These jumpers should be taken into account when making any plans. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Nicely done! Respect! I'll have to file that away for future reference. The "present" was a VERY classy touch. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

You just had to ask that, didn't you? Geez....... Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

You should you were there. (See attachment) Glad to see the Alzheimer's hasn't cut in yet. And as an aside, Pieing for 100 does not dilute the tradition, rather it helps the newbies along, I think. Lots more folks make it to 100 than to 1000, but the more we include the young ones in our traditions, the more likely they are to continue. -My two cents, anyway.... Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Yep, that's the one. The really bad thing is that I was warned, repeatedly about that problem, and yet I kept on jumping it. Ah, youth! Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Mine is pretty boring. On camera dives I snooze most of the way to altitude, then do gear check, skydiver handshake, internalize and focus. On RW dives, I'm totally internalized, rehearsing the dive and focused all the way to altitude. Then gear check, skydiver handshake, and back to internalization & focus. Not much for socializing or fun and games in the plane. Like I said - really boring. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Damn dude, you are a geek. What's worse is most of us know that chant. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Um - I've seen it done my entire carreer. Although, for my 100th, since we were in a field in the middle of BFE, with no stores nearby, they improvised and doused me with buckets of cold water - In October - in Ontario, after sunset. Repeatedly. On the day it happened, to answer the original question. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Wow, there's a couple of names I haven' heard in a long, long time. But no, neither of those. It was an MS copy of the Jerry Bird teardrop rig. Front and back mounted canopies. Was in a funnel and the reserve container was prematurely opened right in the middle of it. Had another jumper blow right through two gores on the left side, barely missing me. Fortunately, she was not hurt, and we both were fine. I landed right by the clubhouse. Stood it up, too. Very scary sh*t. So no, I'm NOT sorry the gear is gone. Wouldn't mind another 3 jump, though..... Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

I also agree that perhaps static line or IAD might be a more cost effective way to go. But there's also another factor in this type of training that I believe is just as, and perhaps more important. With this type of training, the student must dedicate the entire day to the adventure. He or she joins a group of people who collectively take the class and over the hours share a high adventure. Further, at the end of the day, both while waiting for their turn, and afterwards, they have time to interact with the regular jumpers, who, if they do what was done in the past, welcome them to the brotherhood, and invite them to stay for the after hours socializing. The students hear the war stories, and they all have a jump story to tell as well. This helps foster the feeling that they are part of the group, and are welcome to come back tomorrow. And since it's not as expensive as AFF, they are more likely to do so. Do the numbers bear it out? Well, who knows? I don't have them, but it might be good business to offer that option again. And then us old farts can be jumpmasters again. hehehehehe....... Geez, my old skills just might come in handy again. Full circle. How about that, eh? Oh, and to be a fly on the wall the first few times a new jumpmaster has to do a hop-n-pop from 2800' :-O Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

All right. We'll have to agree to disagree with that point of view. I don't for one minute believe that one of the deliberate agenda items when opening the DZ last spring was to damage the Richmond Boogie. JH is a business man. And a successful one. His vision is long term, and I'd be willing to bet that purposely damaging a once-a-year national boogie was not on his mind. If it was, you would have seen a much higher marketing profile for the weekend event. And the prime load organizer would have been several world champions in different disciplines, not a 1,000 jump "high-powered skygod". :) Who, by the way, did an excellent job. Just ask anyone who was there. He did set up a successful DZ record 18 way. (This is a completely objective analysis) ;) "His" who? The DZO or the DZM? I can assure you that their agendas are different. There are overlaps, yes, but they are not identical. Either way - why not ask them directly? Well, that ain't gonna happen. I would challenge you to find any DZO that would be willing to shut down his business on the last long weekend of the summer with a long, dry winter ahead of him/her. There is also the issue of the regular jumpers at a given DZ who may not want to go to the boogie that weekend for whatever reason. I spent many Labor Day weekends at SGC because I enjoyed the ambiance there, and the people. It was home. Simple as that. Also, people came from all over to jump there at their Labor Day Boogie. It was/is much smaller than Richmond, but no less fun. Which brings me back to the most important questions: Do you (and others) object to the long running SGC and SDG's Labor Day events? Do you also object to former Board members not attending the Boogie during their tenure? Did you make your objections known at the time? If not, why is it any different now? Both of said DZs had their events that weekend this year, and no comments have been made about that other than for me to ask the question. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

ooooo - I'm OK with the DC3, but I'll pass on the scary old rigs. Had enough of them when I burned one of them that almost killed me, right in the pit at the 'Hills. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Hey, I got one of those! Still proudly displayed on my gear bag.

OK, My turn. I've been around the block a couple of times, and I know my regional history just fine. My first skydive in the Ohio area was back in 1976. I've made my home DZ in Ohio since 1993. I know most of the players and jumped at all the DZs in question. Been to a couple, just a couple, of Richmond Boogies, back when they were much bigger. And at the time, ALL boogies were much bigger. Any of you ever been to the WFFC at its height? How about the Turkey Meet or Christmas boogies at Z-hills? Notice that ALL of said boogies are just a shadow of their former selves? One in particular was even cancelled. Is this the fault of competing DZs? No. A new DZ opens in the area and suddenly it's a direct attack on the Richmond Boogie because they have some goodies on Labor Day weekend? How about "that other" DZ just an hour away from Richmond that's been hosting large aircraft, free dinners and bands on Labor Day weekend for over 20 years? How about that same DZO being on the board for years, and did he ever visit the Richmond Boogie during his tenure? You didn't mention that, and if your local knowledge is as good as you claim, then you sure as hell know about it. So why not crack on that? Is this other DZ also directly attacking the boogie's existence? Does the DZO's absence from the Boogie indicate indifference? I think not. If you're a regular to the Richmond Boogie, then you should also know that most of the people that go to it come from all over the country, not just the tri-state area. It's a National event, not a local one. So - attendance was down. Yep - it's down all over, and many people are concerned and working to try to turn that around. That's not some other DZ's fault. I don't like the falling numbers or the dwindling faces any more than you do. But slamming our brothers and sisters at other DZ's is not the answer and doesn't help matters. You appear to have a personal beef with the fact that Start Skydiving exists. Hm - did you make the same complaints when Skydive Greensburg started up? I bet they had some Labor Day weekend stuff happening too. Every individual skydiver has the right to a choice of where he or she wants to go on any given weekend. Every business has the right to operate within the law and offer their customers services and perks on any given day. You, sir, are implying that neither of the above statements should apply to the tri-state region during the Richmond Boogie dates. Should we mandate that all the area DZs close from now on for a range of, say, 500 miles in all directions so that the Boogie can be assured of success and longetivity? I don't want to see the Boogie go away. But if it takes the above to keep it going - we've got much bigger problems within the sport. Personal attacks on people we don't like for whatever reason, and attacks on other DZ businesses are not going to address the root issues. That's just counter productive noise that serves no purpose. The sport is changing. It's not what it was in 1978, 1985 or even 1995. You don't like the direction it's going? Do something to change it. One of the facts of life is that most skydivers to date have been boomers. We're now in our 50s and 60s. I have exactly ONE friend from my first couple of years in the sport still jumping semi-regularly, and he ain't in Ohio. (and that's from a field of over 20). The last time I saw all of them together was in 1992 at the funeral of one of our own. Most likely that was the last time I will ever see most of them. Even then, most of them had quit jumping. I still talk via the web to some of them, but the're all wuffo's now with families, mortgages and jobs filling their lives. i'm the only one still active every weekend. So yeah, the numbers at the Boogies are going down. But it's not due to other DZs existing. Now, as far as the aforementiond RD is concerned, I'm putting my vote in for a positive note. I've very rarely seen someone as dedicated, hard working, competent, and passionate about the sport as he is. Every DZ should have someone like him on board. Start is very fortunate to have him there. You don't like him or his actions on the board? Fine. Run for the board next year and "work for the membership" yourself. Let's see if your track record would be any better. You want the Boogie to succeed and "Live long and prosper?" Great. Help the staff out next year and come up with some marketing ideas and get the word out. Come up with something to make those people from all over the country to want to come to Richmond again. Do something positive. Hell, just do SOMETHING. The Boogie needs young blood to be a "happening" place. That's what it was 20 years ago. So make it attractive to the new generation of jumpers. Give them a reason to choose to be at Richmond on Labor Day weekend, 'cause it ain't gonna happen all by itself. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Zee is correct. There are DZs out there that don't. And that goes for both the US and Canada. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

I know he's not suggesting anything of the sort, I'm just stirring the pot. But there is a point to this - while the recomendations listed above are a good start, the factors of flying skills, awareness, and consistency must also be part of the equation. I believe that a prospective tandem videographer should demonstrate all of the above to the satisfaction of the DZO and the primary instructor at a given DZ. After all, if same videographer is going to do 4-way video, he's going to have to prove it to the team. And they won't have any problem bumping him if he can't produce. So why not have a similar requirement for customers who are paying a lot more per jump? The prospective videographer should go up on his own dime a bunch of times and film something prior to doing real tandems. We have a DZO, and a head instructor at most DZs, why not a prime videographer for training and safety purposes? Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Hm - since I've never had a tandem rating, and my AFF rating has long since lapsed, then under that recomendation I shouldn't be doing video with tandems. Since you know me, Phree, would you say that I should refrain from doing so in the future? Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

I don't know the actual numbers, and it probably changes from DZ to DZ, but really, folks, the retention rate for students is always going to be pretty low. True, the sport has grown significantly from the days of a "field and a trailer", but at some point we were going to hit an upper limit. This sport is NOT for everyone, and we cannot realistically expect it to grow in numbers forever. We can, however, try to maintain some consistent ballpark number. I don't know what that would be in the US. Back in the day, we'd have 50 - 75 students come out each day to do static line jumps at the particular DZ that I was at. So that's about 100 - 150 students per weekend over the course of the summer. That's a LOT of students. Now, how many do you think would stick around for jump 2, or season 2? Not that many. If we had a dozen new jumpers by the end of the year, that was pretty damn good. If the tandem numbers are the same, and you get a dozen new jumpers, then you're still doing pretty damn good. On the other hand, if you're getting only one or two, you've got a problem. The major differences between then and now are: -the student and up-jumper populations are separated -The students are on the DZ for a couple of hours, and talk only to the staff & tandem masters -the tandem is not marketed as a gateway to a new activity. The result of all of the above is that the student has no opportunity to insert him/herself into the sport unless they really, REALLY want to do this. Now, that said, back in the day, you had to really, REALLY want to do this too, if you wanted to get into the sport. You think the skygod problem is a problem now? Hehe - you should have seen it in the mid-70s. Guys who would be laughed off of DZs today were strutting around making life miserable for the newbies and getting away with it because we didn't have video. The did it simply by force of personallity. At least today, you've got to walk the walk and prove it on every dive. And everyone can have a bad jump and get it caught on video for the rest of us to laugh at. But I digress....... The way we kept students around then was to include them in the social activities, by the up jumpers making an effort to talk to the students, answer the questions, and provide insight and instruction without being condescending. That rule hasn't changed, we still need to do that. The changes in the way the sport is administered has made that part of it more difficult. One of my favorite tactics (and many other jumpers would do the same), was to have a pretty young lady hold tension on my rig while I packed. I had a captive audience for about 8 minutes where I could show her the basics of packing, talk about the student progression, and maybe get a phone number. If an irrate boyfriend showed up, I'd switch tactics, and simply keep to the packing, progression, and invite them both to join us for beers and partying after their jump. It was actually very effective. After square canopies came into vogue, it was a bit harder, but we still tried to keep the students engaged. My suggestions: have the students physically in a place that places them in the middle of the action on the ground. Jumpers welcome all these people and stay friendly, answer questions and try not to roll your eyes on the 5,000th time that a wuffo asks you "What happens when the reserve doesn't open?" Encourage them to hang out, tell them about the fire at the end of the day. Have the DZ change the marketing so that it encourages repeat business. Repeat business is more business, and therefore good for the DZs bottom line. A healthy DZ is good for everyone. And if there's folks on the DZ that you don't get along with, well, that happens everywhere you go. It's just part of the human equation. Get used to it, and just stay away from them as best you can. At least you know you have something in common with them. You're both there to have fun. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Spoken like a true fossil! Back in the day it was really hard to get anyone to pack your main, even if you did offer money. And the attitude was to take care of your gear, 'cause it was gonna save your ass. This included packing and inspecting it all the time. Me, I pack my own, but if I'm pressed for time because of videos or team jumps, I'll reluctantly let someone else pack. Preferably one of my two kids. Both grew up on the DZ, and the older one put himself through college packing, and retired at 23. Now he's got almost 1,000 jumps and packs for himself. The younger is currently doing the same. Both have excellent track records. The older got his rigger's ticket a while back, and for practice, I let him pack my reserve for a cycle, since he needed to work on a Racer, and then one time I needed a quick pack job on my main. I tell ya, it's a very weird feeling after many, many years of packing both of your own to suddenly realize as you reach for the hackey at pull time that you didn't pack either one of the canopies on your back. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

If your profile is accurate, then I would strongly discourage you from flying a camera at this time. It's not something you can mount on your helmet and forget about. It requires a significant increase in overhead/mental awareness/risk/flying skills. While you might accept the risk factor and overhead, I can assure you that unless you're a prodigy, the mental awareness and flying skills are not to the level that is needed to safely fly a camera, or get useful shots. This is not meant as an insult or a brush off. Many people mount cameras on their helmets today far earlier than is wise. Much the same as people downsize their canopies sooner than they should. Buy the camera for personal reasons if you must, but for skydiving - continue to hone your skills. You need to be able to perform complex manoevers without thought to be able to get the shots that count. You also need to be aware of where people are and what they are doing while at the same time, not moving your head. These two very important skills are not well developed in most skydivers until they have several hundred jumps under their belts. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Eventually, (and obviously, you can see this coming), the trouble became a whole lot more than it was worth with him, and we found a replacement. Our communications problems vanished, and we then had normal things to deal with. Like levels, co-ordinating piece turns, brainlocks, and simply trying to go faster. None of that has changed, either. But the coaching and the techniques have certainly improved. To this day, that gentleman still doesn't get it, and he's never been accepted on a team since. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

For serious and semi-serious teams, or even if you're a weekend jumper trying to improve your skill levels, the norm has been for several decades now, no sunglasses. Most of the non-verbal communications happen with eye contact. You know instantly if your partner is on the same page, or is having problems remembering, or at worst, is having a helmet fire. Also, a lot of keys are sequenced through eye contact, not through the "shake and break" method, especially if the eye contact is across something large, like 8-way and up. Exits, depending on the group, can be, and should be co-ordinated through eye contact when possible. When key players look at each other they KNOW when everyone is ready, otherwise, they don't get the eye contact. With sunglasses, all this is not possible. Now, if someone has a legitimate problem with sunlight, they're going to have to find some way to protect their eyes, and still have some means to allow people to actually see them. If that can't be done, then that person needs to be placed in a part of the dive that communication is not critical. Back in the '70s I was told that in 4-way and 8-way, eye contact was critical for communications by both Mike Zahar and Rob Laidlaw. The fundamentals that they laid down back then have not changed. Look at all the top RW teams over the past 20 years and check out the pictures. Are any of them wearing sunglasses? Now, that said - it depends on the level of jumping you want to do. Can you fun jump with sunglasses? Yes you can. But recognize that there will be limitations. Especially if most of the people are wearing them. We had one gentleman on an 8-way team back in the day that insisted that he could wear his cool frosted goggles without impacting his communications with the team. Well that turned out to be bunk, because we could never tell who or what he was looking at, or if he was having issues with memory. The rest of us wore clear. Naturally, the videos showed that when communcation problems happened, it was somewhere around him. It was very frustrating, but we were never able to convince him of the problem. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

I've jumped at a lot of DZ's in more than one country over a long period of time. I've NEVER seen a DZO in all that time tell his packers that they should/will pay for the repack and/or the canopy should it be lost or damaged. Cutaways on student gear or tandem gear just happen. The numbers are against them. Even on a small DZ that gear is getting jumped hundreds of times more often than the regular jumpers gear. Therefore, it's a cost of doing business. It is the DZO's right and responsibility to run his place safely and within ethical, legal and business guidelines to keep the place running. However, that said, I believe that in this case, he's made a poor business decision. Packers and instructors are going to keep second guessing their calls when things go bad, and someone is most likely going to get hurt at some point. If he is adamant about this line of thought, find another DZ to work at. Malfunctions will happen. Packers are not always at fault. However, if it can be proved that the packer DID do something wrong, at minimum he or she should volunteer to return the fee for the pack job, and assist with recovery of the main. - just my 2 cents. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

It's not "woofo", it's "wuffo". Which literaly translated means "Wuffo you skydive?" or "What for you skydive?". The term goes back decades and is usually meant in a derogatory term to describe people who do not skydive. Or, in a more narrow sense, people who do not understand why we skydive, even after hours of explanations. To most of us, there are two types of people in the world, skydivers and wuffos. Some of each group are cool, some are not. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Oh, yeah, been there and done that. You're right, most uncomfortable rigs ever made. Obviously made by the military. And just to add to that - jump #14 - got one ball caught in the legstrap on opening. And no, I couldn't get it loose until I landed. Was just a titch more uncomfortable than usual. I was VERY thankful to land on that one. So like most guys, I made sure never to make that mistake again. The memory is still pretty damn fresh even after all this time. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666