Inspired

Ok, that would be funny Unless you're wrong It still wouldn't change my point. If he's gay and feels that way, then maybe he needs to stop thinking of himself as disadvantaged. It can be a self fulfilling emotion.

No, sorry. Skymama answered my question about jump numbers, but she nevered addressed my point about gays not being at a disadvantage. They are two seperate issues. Mdrejhon, Mark, said himself that they were welcomed with opened arms. I contend that gays are as capable skydivers as straights, and don't necessarily warrant special recognition. Now you explain to me why they're less capable. Go on... explain!

I can try, I guess: You said: "Unless, of course, being gay is somehow a disadvantage, which in this case, and most cases in fact, I don't believe it is." Distinguish fact from opinion here. Site a few examples where it is "in fact" not a disadvantage to be gay. Ok, you're a freakin bigot! The only obstacle gays face are bigots like you who seem to think that gays are not as capable as straights. Maybe you should try getitng to know a few before you decide that they're somehow always at a disadvantage.

Being a low-timer, I think maybe he doesn't understand all the time and effort that goes into organizing a boogie and being a load organizer for a group of visiting jumpers with varying skills, some even with few skills. The fact that they did two points makes it even more impressive. Until someone has the skills to do all of that himself, he should probably just STFU, let Mark have his moment of glory after all of his hard work and maybe even tell him "good job, Dude." Just my opinion. By the way...good job, Mark! Point taken. I certainly didn't intend to take away from what he accomplished by organizing a two point twelve way. Especially if it was at a boogie, and also possibly his first attempt at organizing a bigway. Congratulations Mark. I mean that sincerely. Skymama, did you realize though, that you never once mentioned that the participants were gay? Not that I blame you, because we both know that being gay didn't impede them much at all in this feat. Granted, he did have a smaller pool of talent to draw from. But he only had to find twelve talented gay skydivers. There must be hundreds, if not thousands, in this country alone, who were qualified to make this jump. Some of the larger dropzones probably have enough local jumpers to do it. If you think that gays are disproportionetely represented in the skydiving community, then please give your references and reasoning. Otherwise, I stand by my original assertion. Organizing a two point twelve way... well done. Doing it with twelve gay guys and calling it a world record... . I let one of my gay friends read this thread, and he felt that it was a bit patronizing. Why was it so special just because they were gay? Do you think gays are less capable?

That wasn't actually said about me. But maybe you're right anyway.

Ok, a bigway of old Canadian girls named Bob would seriously impress me. But it would still have to be at least a 20 way, unless there were at least two lesbians on the load. I guess it would be acceptable if they're just flying camera. Seriously though, I get your point. It's all just fun. It's part of the reason I'm drawn to this sport. I'm usually critical of people who take race, or gender, or sexual preference, or religion too seriously. But, in this case, maybe I missed the fun part of the world record achievment because I was too sensitive about the distiction between gay and straight abilities. Hell, I'll be proud when I finally do at least a four way. And I'm not even a girl, or gay, or Canadian, or named Bob. I am old though, so... wooohoooo!!!

I admire you for living your life in such an honest way. The twelve way two point bigway though.... yeah, it was ok.

Sounds like you can't distinguish between fact and opinion. I don't really understand your point. Can you elaborate?

You're being critical with only 8 jumps under your belt? I don't see what jump numbers have to do with having an opinion here. I have several gay friends who don't celebrate everytime they accomplish something that has already been accomplished by the general population. Unless, of course, being gay is somehow a disadvantage, which in this case, and most cases in fact, I don't believe it is.

Umm, no Stick to the chart http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf And unless you're jumping every week and actively pursuing canopy knowledge, please follow the black numbers instead of the gray ones.

Sangi, I think this is a case of: You don't even know how much you don't know. I'm not talking about skydiving... I'm talking about life. A close and loving family is worth far more than all the gold in Fort Knox, and certainly more than all the skydiving jumps you could ever make. Having the trust of those you love is priceless. It would be foolish to risk that. Unfortunetely, it seems as though you don't understand this. And for that... I feel very very sorry for you. I hope that someday, before it's too late, you'll understand what I'm talking about. It took me a few decades to fully understand. I hope you'll at least give it some thought.

Because once you start, it's all you can think about. It's almost as evil as falling in love. Makes studying a whole lot more difficult. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that she's interested in veterinary medicine (hint: look at her homepage). Did her mom force her love of animals on her? Or, perhaps her mom doesn't want to see her do anything which might distract her from the dream she already has. Not all moms are evil.

Well, I skipped Summerfest last weekend because I figured any new out-of-towners wouldn't have had much chance to familiarize themselves with the DZ yet. So, I figured to go during the week, so there'd also be fewer jumpers, but I didn't make it out till today (Friday). I fully intended to jump, thinking that my instructors would be able to ensure my safety, but I ended up changing my mind. There were a lot of firsts for me today. 1. The coolest first was seeing a new world record being made. 2. A less cool first was seeing a couple near collisions under canopy. At least they appeared too close to me, but I am a rookie. 3. First time seeing someone almost land on the roof of the hanger. He didn't quite make it to the landing area. 4. First time seeing someone land on the parking lot side of the hanger. I didn't see anyone hurt afterward, and it was one of the bigway attempts, so I assume it was a very experienced jumper who either landed on the road or made it to the grassy area. 5. First time seeing 4 jumpers on a single load land out. I imagine this does happen often enough though. 6. First time seeing an Otter dropping jumpers while the load before was still landing. This is what had me spooked the most. I'm not sure if they actually had all 5 Otters flying in rotation, but it sure seemed that way to me. (Yes, they had 5 Otters. 2 from SDC, 2 from Spaceland, and 1 from Deland. The Skyvan stayed parked all day.) 7. And the most uncool first for me was seeing an ambulance on the DZ. Someone was injured at the far southwest corner of the landing area. I imagine we'll read about it in the incident forum if it was serious, but the impression I got was that it wasn't too terrible. So, between some of the cautionary advice given here, and some of the craziness I witnessed, I chickened out. I realize that overall, especially for experienced jumpers, it was a great day. From what I've heard from talking to people, it's been a VERY successful boogie. It was just a little too much for me. I may try to make it out again on Sunday, but I won't decide whether to jump till I get there. Big thanks to everyone for the advice!

+1 To the OP: Once you're actually self sufficient; and by that I mean not using other people's money for school, not living with your parents, and paying ALL your own bills; then start living your own life the way you like and start AFF. Don't do it on someone else's dime, unless they're ok with it. If they approve of tandem jumps, then count your blessings and JUMP! Edited to add: I just saw that you posted right before me. I like what you had to say! You show a good amount of maturity. BLUE SKIES!

This is exactly what I'm worried about. The bigways don't scare me. In fact, I've already had the privelege of jumping on a two plane bigway load when SDC was doing trials for the heads down world record attempt. There was room left for four of us on one of the planes, so two experienced FF jumpers, my instructor, and I got to ride on that load. There were some strange looks and questions from some of the other jumpers on the load when they saw that I was obviously a student, but my instructor cooly explained to them that heads down bigways were now part of the AFP level 9. It was awesome watching the other plane out my window as both planes emptied out in what seemed like an instant. Plus, by the time I got out of the plane and under canopy, I knew I was the only person left in the sky. There weren't even any tandems following me. So, yeah... I'm most worried about planes leaving just minutes apart, and finding myself under canopy with the experienced jumpers from the plane after me. I guess if they put me on a load full of tandems, I'll at least have a little more of a buffer. FYI... yes, SDC is my home DZ. I only have 5 solo jumps so far. A minor back injury (not from skydiving), weather, and a tough work schedule have kept me from jumping for the last five weeks. So I'm starting to fear that I've forgotten stuff already. I really don't want to put off jumping any more, but I don't want to jump if it's not safe. But, I am starting to develop a plan, based on all the responses so far. A big THANKS to everyone for the replies!

Would weekdays be a better time to jump?

I'd like to make some AFP jumps during Summerfest at SDC, but I'm a little worried about jumping with so many other canopies in the air. With 4 Otters and a Skyvan dropping jumpers, is it safe for students like me?

That's an interesting description on how to side slide. I heard that description in a tunnel instructional video. The reason I chose to use it is that it emphasizes the fact that there is more than one control surface involved; not just legs or upper body. Erdnarob's description of using front and back risers on the same side makes sense to me, but then I would wonder what effect it would have on altitude loss and wind speed. I'm personally far from using some of these techniques, but when I get there, I'd rather know how and why they work rather than just simply being told to do them because that's what you're supposed to do. Edited to add: Am I right in assuming that what you are describing is to change your roll angle while trying to keep your yaw to a minimum? If so, I think I'm starting to get it.

[n00b question] How, exactly, do you fly a canopy sideways without flying crosswind? [/n00b question] The same way you fly sideways in ff. You maintain the same heading and move to the right or left. In ff, you use your upper body and legs turning in opposite directions to cause a side slide. Using your analogy, wouldn't the brakes or rear risers be the equivalent of your legs, and the front risers the equivalent of your upper body? How can you side slide in ff using just your legs, which would be the equivalent of using just the brakes on a canopy? This sounds very much like Billvon's description of a flat turn: From Billvon's Downsizing Checklist: This is all a part of canopy control that has had me a little confused. Up till now, I thought it was simply people's differing use of terminology. But now, I'm wondering if I'm missing something important. I still don't understand how a canopy flying directly into the wind, or possibly no wind, would maintain its heading, yet fly sideways. Maybe my instructor will be able to demonstrate for me. Thanks for trying to clear this up for me. Sometimes it takes awhile to sink into my thick skull.

[n00b question] How, exactly, do you fly a canopy sideways without flying crosswind? [/n00b question]

I had the opposite problem as yours. I did some tunnel time, so my freefall skills were fine. But I was so tense after having jumped from a plane that my mind was racing and I couldn't think clearly. I was having a hard time remembering the dive flow. Like you though, I knew I just needed to relax. What helped me TREMENDOUSLY was simply taking some slow deep breaths during freefall. I had already been doing it before exiting, and it helps me get past my door fear, but I would forget about my breathing during freefall. My instructor even had a hand signal to remind me to breath, and once I did... WOW, what a difference! I was finally able to actually have fun while in freefall. If you're not already thinking about your breathing, give it a try. It sure helped me. Ask your instructor to remind you if necessary. I hope your next jump ends with a BIG smile!

I did my first two tandems at CSC and my 3rd tandem and now AFP at SDC, so I can tell you from first hand experience that you won't be sorry with either choice. I know that doesn't help you much with your decision, so let me tell you some specific differences between the two drop zones. CDC flies one Super Otter and one brand new PAC 750 aircraft. SDC flies two Super Otters and also a Cesna Grand Caravan. I've only ever jumped out of the Otters, and I'm glad because I'm a big guy (6'2" and 235 lbs) so even the Otter door feels a little small to me. The PAC and Caravan doors are both smaller, so if you're a big guy, you might want to find out what plane they'll likely be flying that day. Honestly though, I don't think door size is all that important for tandems. Another difference is that CDC has benches in their planes. SDC doesn't (you sit on the floor of the plane). So, for tandem students on their way up to altitude, CDC has a much more comfortable ride. But once it comes time to start hooking up the students to the instructors, sitting on the floor is MUCH easier when the plane is full. Trying to hook up on a crowded Otter at CDC while sitting on the bench seats was a pain in the ass! Not so bad at SDC while sitting on the floor between your instructors legs. If the plane isn't full, then hookup is easy with or without benches. Sorry, but I have no experience hooking up tandems on the PAC 750 or the Caravan. The atmosphere is different between the two DZs. CDC seems more laid back, and there were a lot of experienced jumpers and instructors just hanging out that actually seemed eager to sit and chat and tell lots of skydiving stories. But the instruction that they give for your first jump seems minimal compared to SDC, unless you happen to get an awesome Tandem Instructor, which they do have a few of. SDC is a lot busier DZ, so not quite so laid back, but the instruction was top notch. Because the tandems are actually a requirement if you want to get licensed through their AFP program, they seem to treat them as more than just a thrill ride. A really big difference between the two DZs is how close spectators (family and friends) can be to the landing area to watch. At CDC, your friends and family will be at least a couple hundred feet from where you land (I'm estimating). At SDC they might be as little as twenty feet from you. It's fun to see people yelling to their family below as they prepare to land. Can't do that at CDC. So you see, each place has its advantages. It really just depends on what's most important to you. Either way though, I'm sure you'll be happy. Enjoy your first jump! Maybe we'll be jumping together someday.

I'm no expert, but... shouldn't the folds on his bat wing be facing away from the relative wind, not facing into it? I think a good caption might be: Permission to board?

That just makes it worse

Congrats Katie, on your new found love! I did 2 tandems in 3 weeks, then waited 10 more months before starting my AFP. You're progressing much faster than I did. Have Fun!!! Don