BruceSmith

The fireworks seem to be over for the moment, ie: Jo and me, but let's pause for a moment and see where we stand and posit some ideas where we go from here. As for behavior at the DZ, what I glean from Quade's actions is that he has determined that it is okay to call or infer that a fellow-poster on the DZ is any of the following: 1. A murderer 2. A stalker 3. A liar 4. Someone who lusts sexually after Norjak principals. 5. Greedy 6. Not nice 7. Smelly and unable to maintain hygiene In addition, bullying and character assassination is okay, as well. (Whew, I'd hate to be called an assassin, too!) However, it is not okay to call someone a coward, or to develop a "cowards list," or call yourself a cop, as did Paul, apparently. Further, posting cryptic or indecypherable posts is okay. Outlandish claims without any proof is okay, too, like saying your husband or boy-friend was/is DB Cooper. Teasing or posting veiled tidbits of information is acceptable, even when 377 begs for clarity or decisiveness. 377 is just going to have to suck it up, it appears. But skydivers are special! (Yeah, skydivers!!!) The issue of how nutty we can be is a little murky, but referring to oneself in the third person is okay. Taking pain killers while posting is also allowed, even if it seems to cause immediate impacts on the clarity of one's posts. Drinking, too, is okay, at least Tequila, apparently. (Thank Gawd!!!) Have I missed anything?

I agree with you G. This aspect is under-reported. What I know of the details confirms that the search was massive in the days following the hijacking. Bruce Thun reported that the feds were all over Thun Field and knew extensive details about his jumpers and pilots. Bruce asked me, plainly, "How did the FBI know all that stuff!" SOG guy JD Bath also told me that he was interviewed in the DB Cooper case as soon as he rotated out of Vietnam and was questioned in Ft Bragg. Bath indicated that many of the SOG guys got the same treatment. SA John Detlor also confirmed to me that soldiers returning from Vietnam were comprehensively questioned. Plus, John seemed uncomfortabale telling me that, and had to clear his throat as he spoke. I may be reading too much into that, but....

Don't worry, Wheatie, on asking questions twice - I'm old and fat so I probably won't remember more than one. Yes, it is my understanding that all forms of public transportation were investigated - bus drivers, cabbies, etc. Also, all the cars in the parking lot were also checked to see if any were abandoned and not accounted for. This kind of massive man-hunt is what made Norjak the most expensive investigation of its time, as I understand it.

So, where is the line of decency at the DZ? Here, or..... just about over there? It tends to move a bit depending on the personages involved. Snowmman was booted from this forum for being a royal jerk even though he was the smartest guy in the room, every night. Galen crossed a line and got banned from here for asking Larry Carr ( in a snarky manner) if he posted here during company time, which I personally think was a legitimate use of the taxpayer's money, and also a legitimate question from Galen no matter how sophmoric it may have been to some people. Meyer and Blevs have been booted for being impulsive bloviators with excessive attitude, and I seem to recall Georger getting a time-out or two for being too mean-temptered for anyone's tolerance levels to withstand. Yet, no one here has ever called anyone a murderer before, or a "creep" who "lusts" after Tina. No one has ever called for law enforcement to investigate any of us here before. No one has ever threatened to have a DZ poster arrested before. No, tonight has been a special night. In response, I am reluctant to have someone kicked out of their therapy group for these kinds of behaviors, even if they've cross the line for most of us here. After all, we all come here for personal reasons, and Jo seems especially drawn to these pages. It certainly looks like a therapy group for her, as it is often for me, as well. After all, Dr. Phil got into show biz because he felt his clinical practice had simply turned into a "Rent-a-friend service." Such are our needs. But Jo has crossed a serious line. She is accusing me of crimes. Hence, upon the advise of counsel I have asked Quade to remove her from this forum. Then, we all go on from here.

Regarding Jo's assertion that I may be a murderer, I feel it is necessary to state a few things. First, I have asked Quade for his advice on how we should proceed. In addition, I have asked him to make an intervention with Jo. I think she needs some clear boundaries established. Along those lines, I feel like Jo uses the forum as a kind of psychological punching bag, beating up anyone who doesn't bow down to her or fawn over her story. Certainly those who challenge her claim to be the widow of DB Cooper and ask for proof are castigated severely by her, regardless of how reasonable their questions may be. It begs the age-old question - what do you do with bullies, even if they are needy 73-year old women? Leave them alone, or call them on their shit?

377 I'm gonna pass of this one, Three-Seven-Seven. I've got enough secrets here, ya know what I mean? On second thought, maybe I should get in touch with the author and maybe we can do some real serious remote viewing on Norjak Along those lines, I've been thinking this morning (ahem, afternoon) about the possibility that the feds got Cooper up in the Washougal and then planted the money down at Tina Bar to create an investigatory distraction to keep guys like us flapping our gums for decades and chasing our tails. Such a scenario answers two quetions - why were the feds looking for Cooper in the Washougal for two weeks after the hijacking (and long after they had stopped looking in Ariel), and how did three bundles end up at Tina Bar with little or no plume field, rubber bands intact, bills compressed, etc. This assumes of course that the FBI wanted to keep Cooper's identity a secret, such as might happen if Cooper was a SOG trooper or had a similar politically-based Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free-Card.

Greetings Joachim, and welcome to the DZ. Yes, good point, I think if the ransom money was used in any manner, such as to purchase a house, buy a car, etc, it would soon be in regular circulation and subject to being spotted. Hence, one would think that the first order of business was to launder the money, and get untraceable cash to purchase homes and such. The question is then where to wash ransom money. We have discussed this a bit here, and the best places seem to be casinos, particularly those overseas. In fact, I wonder if KC was more involved in this end of things rather than hijacking airplanes. The whole business of airline crews getting involved in smuggling and laundering money is a theme not well explored in literature or Hollywood, and I say it's time to research this and write a block-buster!

Reply: I gather from Ms. Weber's lengthy missive that she had knowledge of her husband as John C Collins as early as 1990. I stand corrected.

Hi Georger. I got your PM, but I am unable to reply.

Aug 14, 2009, 11:47 PM "Orange, you had asked why I didn't remember the name on the ticket. This is a question I have asked myself many times. I was just impressed by how old the ticket was and I was very pressed for time during that part of my life. I do not know if I noted the name - but then Dan Cooper didn't mean anything to me around Feb of 1994." Aug 15, 2007, 12:10 AM Jo Replies: I never said the ticket said Dan Cooper. I have an unique ability to remember things from the past...which has been exhibited by my recall in not only this incident, but thru out my life. The date was February of 1994 that I found the ticket. she also claims many times the ticket said "Sea Tac" where exactly did it say that? Yes, the saga is vast. Thanks for the additions.

Bruce....Oh, the things you miss when you go on vacation! A new poster came on suggesting he had a new suspect and he posted a picture of him that I thought looked a lot like Christopher Walken. Then, I posted a RobertMBlevins-esqe post listing all of the many reasons why Christopher Walken was a good suspect in the Cooper hijacking. So, Georger posted side by side photos of the original suspects photo and Christopher Walken, and I just used the Walken photo as my avatar. And do you know what the strange part is? Even though my post was totally in jest, it was not the weirdest one on here! I don't have a favorite Christopher Walken movie, but I was recently watching "Annie Hall" and I forgotten that he was in that! Yikes. Not the weirdest one? Whew. Yeah, I missed this whole thing. Wow...

So, let's recap Duane Weber as DB Cooper and Jo's legacy in Norjak. 1. Ckret was unable to confirm Jo's story that any John C Collins stayed in any motel near PDX on or about Nov 24, 1971. 2. No one else has been able to confirm Jo's story about the "night clerk," who says he had a Duane Weber/ John C Collins that night who looked like DB Cooper, and that the night clerk saw Duane's pix in the paper in 2001 and remembered the face. 3. No confirmation of Duane's alleged 1995 confession to Jo of being "Dan Cooper," nor an explanation of who "Dan" was. It was DB Cooper, according to Jo. 4. Duane never indicated to Jo that he had a second identity as John C Collins despite 17 years of marriage and being a nice guy during that time. 5. Jo has been diligent in her Cooper research since 1995 and is arguably the Godmother of the Resurgent Investigation into Norjak. After her came DNA testing, Internet research and investigations, death-bed confessions (ala KC), and the de-classification of covert ops in Vietnam. She was also a founding member of this forum, and responsible for the subsequent exchange of copious amounts of Cooper information. 6. According to Jo, she has extensive relationships with principals in the case - Himmelsbach, Rataczak, Tina, Lee and Jane; also, Margie Boule of the Oregonian and a former writer from the Seattle Times named Susan Gilmore. She is in constant communication, or attempts to engage: me, Galen and the gang at the DZ. 7. Gilmore confirms extensive phone correspondence with Jo. Sgt M Billy Waugh also confirms that Jo was in contact with him circa 2009, before I or anyone else knew about his role in SOG. 8. Lee Dormuth confirms that Jo was in contact with his wife, Jane, and had an extensive phone conversation with her the night before my arrival at their home, which Jo minimizes. 9. Jo has allegedly conversed with Tina. Further, Jo knew Tina's contact information before any other reporter - before me, Galen, Geoff, or Gilmore. 10. Jo says that she got a lead on Tina's whereabouts due to the unsolicited intervention of a "high governmental official" using the moniker of Robbie Clampett. Jo resists all efforts to confirm this link. Further, Jo has apparently not offered an apology to any skyjacked principals for her husband's alleged actions. 11. Jo claims that she had a prior conversation with Duane about DB Cooper in the woods north of Lake Camas, during the Sentimental Journey of 1979. This would be the exchange about Duane being "His (Cooper's) ground man." Her later claim that she had never heard of DB Cooper until Duane's confession fourteen years later in 1995 seems to be lost in the haze of denial, obfuscation, explanation, and side-stepping. 12. Gilmore has confirmed the nature of her relationship with Jo. Boule has not, and may be deceased. 13. Jo actively resists having her picture taken. She also resists writing and publishing her story for the public. She is seemingly content to tell her tale here on the DZ to the 750 or so folks who read the DZ currently. 14. Jo has extensive knowledge of the case. She is also cognizant of JM Wave and the actions of parties in New Orleans associated with the JFK assassination. She is also familiar with MKULTRA-type of operations. 15. By her postings here on the DZ, we know that her physical health is poor and that her personal life is rife with struggle, ie: multiple car accidents, little or no social support, such as car rides to doctors, etc. 16. Jo is relentless in her character assassinations here at the DZ. She has lambasted just about everybody at some point, and I am one of her current favorites. 17. Jo rarely introduces new information here at the DZ, but carefully weaves in new Duane Weber narratives as tag-along pieces to current topics and personalities. 18. Jo frequently characterizes herself as a dumb-blonde, but she is arguably as sly as a fox. She solicits and receives much technical and investigative support from the DZ. 19. Jo is a featured personage of Geoff's book, Skyjack. 20. Jo is allegedly been part of at least one DB Cooper documentary.

Mark, I see that you have posted an avatar that looks a lot like Christopher Walken. Yes? I just saw a wonderful movie with Walken, "Stand Up Guys." Have you seen it? It's on Netflix. Also stars Al Pacino. I loved it. You?

Duane-no idea??? Bruce, didnt Jo once have a now have a poofed parking ticket for the Portland airport that Duane left behind? A poofed flight ticket too, don't forget that. The night clerk story is intriguing. Has anyone from the FBI actually met him in person? Phone calls and emails can come from anyone. I am still worried about Farflung. He seems to have disappeared. Without his pesky fact reminders I will inevitably stray into thinking parachuting experience is a prerequisite for a successful skyjack jump. 377 Three-Seven-Seven, thanks for your prompt on Duane. I have revised my initial post based upon you getting my memory banks fired-up, along with prompts from other folks... As for driving to the airport, didn't the feds rule that out since they checked every car and found a matching (male) owner? So, Duane, aka Johnnie C Collins, either walked or got a ride from the motel.

Barb says she drove, and left her car. Then took a bus back to PDX from her LZ in Woodburn and drove home to West Seattle. As for McCoy, it is presumed he flew in from Las Vegas, because he filled his VW with gas in Vegas on Thanksgiving Day. KC - possibly got dropped off by Bernie in the Airstream after a night camping at Priest Point Park. Gossett - no idea. Uncle LD - no idea, but possibly Dewey dropped him off on the way to stationing himself in the woods of SW Washington. Duane - walked or got a ride from someone at the Red Roof Inn, where he stayed as John C Collins. He didn't take a taxi or bus because the FBI talked to all those drivers and no one saw him via those means of transportation.

Truly pathetic. Shame on you Jo. You are dancing and dodging like a little kid caught in a lie. You said YOU could put Duane in a chute. Now you are hedging and trying to avoid taking any responsibility for your extraordinary claim. I expected better from you. 377 Whoa, Three-Seven-Seven. You and Jo are headed toward thin ice here. But it will be interesting to see how Mrs. Cooper responds to your postings of late, since you are the King of Civil Discourse at the DZ. Character Assassination is Jo's preferred choice of weapon, but attacking you is risky. I suppose she may just have to ignore you. Or raise some new tantilizing tease as a distracting. I'm not even sure she knows what she is doing. She seems just to post from her gut. Her attacks appear to be instinctual. I wonder how she will respond to these words? It's one of the reasons I read the DZ.

Thanks! I'm savoring it.

All three stews were consulted, as well as anyone else who actually saw/noticed Cooper. All three stewardesses picked different combinations from the FBI's Facial Identification Catalog. Tina Mucklow: FIC number not known. Hair: 'Straight, narrow sideburns.' Height: 'Five ten to six feet'. Florence Schaffner: KK5-1. Hair: 'Straight, parted on the left side.' Height: 'Six feet tall.' Alice Hancock: KA3-9. Hair: 'Wavy, short, and trimmed in the back.' Height: Not given publicly. Other witnesses' comments on the hijacker: Robert Gregory: Hair: 'Marcelled'. Height: 'No more than five nine'. Cord Spreckel: 'He had a square jaw'. Age: 'About fifty'. Bill Mitchell: 'He had a saggy chin'. George Labissoniere: 'He was no older than thirty-five'. Number 1. That is not what the guy that drew the pictures says. I will listen again, but I'm pretty sure he says he talked to two stewardesses. So what source are you using for this info? I know what Gray says in his book, but honestly, I don't know if I trust that source. I think he expanded on things for literary effect and he admits that he didn't research the claims that he made about Kenny, which proved to be inaccurate, so there's that. And I don't put a lot of weight on other passenger's descriptions because they had no reason to remember Cooper and several of them seem to have changed their proximity to the event over the years. And then there's number 1.

Go Yankees!

Checking my interview notes with Bill Rataczak reveals no new inforamtion on the altitude demands from Cooper. All I have written down is confirmation that Cooper demanded "flaps at 15," and "gear down and locked." Bill chartacterized the latter as "flying dirty." By the way, Bill's son Jim knows Bob Knoss through work. In an email to me, Jiim described BK's "story" as "astounding in how completely (and somewhat bizarrely) implausible it was, and bore no similarlity whatsoever to the facts that I know to be true."

I'll check my inteview notes with Rataczak. I believe he confirmed the 10K demand from Cooper. Also, Dona Elliott said the plane was lower than 10K when it went over Amboy. She told, Bobby B, me and Meyer it was about 3-4,000 feet when we talked with her in Ariel in 2012.

377 _ Why did Cooper have them go to 10k feet for him to bail? During the whole period of him getting the door open and stairs out they are at 7000 ft and have been flying at 7000 for some time. With the door finally open and stairs out and Tina forward they climb to 10k feet and slow the plane at Cooper's request. Couldn't he have bailed at 7000 ? Is there something special about 10,000 feet that only an trained parachutist would know_beyond the extra time under chute? Would a novice necessarily know or care if it was 7000 vs 10,000 ? Is it a visual issue given the cloud cover at the time? What is the dominant concern Cooper is expressing in this instruction? Maybe this is a stupid question ? Hardly. It begs a further questions: How do we know the metrics Cooper purportedly demanded are what Boeing recommended for a jump, ie: 1. 10,000 feet 2. Flaps at 15 3. Gear down and locked 4. Speed under 200 mph etc. I've just heard this so often I've considerd it Gospel Truth. (The approved gospels from the Council of Nicea, of course, not the others ones buried back in Alexandria, such as the Gospels of Philip, Thomas, or Mary...)

7-1, eh? Not bad. But I'm more of an 8-0 kind of guy.... Robert, I just read your Newsvine account of your love affair with Ozette Island. You are one crazy motherfucker! Does Jon Krakauer know you're loose in the wilds? You two should get together and do a book and screen play of your "adventures." You have defied death on three occaisons, now. Wow.

7-1, eh? Not bad. But I'm more of an 8-0 kind of guy....

If she would like to go to Ariel next year, I will gladly give her a personal escort. Bruce, she was 101 in 1997! She is deceased. Sorry. Alas.