davelepka

I thought I already posted this. I must have typed it and not hit "Post Reply', sooooooo, one more time.... Thats a good way to put it. I seems like alot of the newer guys are always looking for a short cut, or some concrete number or time to attach to it. I think that when a guy stops thinking about it, he's made it. Once you can accept your posittion in the line-up, you're there. Even a guy with 50 jumps. If he knows where he stands, and acts accordingly, he's already got it.

Thats a good question. Next question - Who's going to jump one?

It's all dependent on what you're tryng to do. Launch a four way round? 350 jumps is more than experienced enough to try that. Be in the base for a 400 way? You need more jumps. See?

No. Forget about camera flying for now. You've got at least 200 jumps to go, and so much to experience between now and then. Just jump. Show up to the DZ, spend all your money, and have as much fun as you can. In 200 jumps, when you start to talk to the local camera guys about video, then you can take stock of the skills you've developed, and see what needs work. At that time, you should be able to clean up any areas you need work on pretty easily. If you can't, then you're really not ready to fly camera, and need another 100 jumps. Don't look so far down the road. You've got alot of other things to look at here and today. Focus on that, and the rest will fall into place.

Thats fine, mayeb restate your objection then from, "Don't hook tandems", to , "Why do all you retards think that a tandem rating makes you a good canopy pilot? You can barely land your 150 whatever straigh in, and you think that because a certificate says you are an instructor that you immediately have skills? Catch on and understand that you need to be albe to fly our sport canopy at 99% of it's potential and have at least 500 jumps on the tandem canopy you are jumping before flying it anyway besides like a student, which you in the case of tandems, you still are". Whats interesting, is that I see the same thing with camera flyers. A new camera guy will ask me for tips on doing a head down exit with tandems, and my usual response is, "Can you do a head down exit without a tandem?". Many of them simply walk away without answering the question. Maybe it's the tandem rigs. Maybe jumping with or near them makes people think they can do things they can't. Somebody call Bill Booth, he'll know whats going on....

Im not following you here.... Let me clarify. I agree with the AFF program up to about jump #7 or 8. Beyond that, I think it's gotten a little out of hand. Like I said, if you can control your turns (what is that AFF lv 4 or 5?) you're good to go. Lets move on to other things. If you want to perfect your turns, there are coaches and camps, and all sorts of options for after you've learned some other surivial skills.

If it means that student time or dollars will be re-routed to cover the expense of canopy coaching, than sure, that sounds great. Seriously, fuck turns. Who cares what your turns look like? As long as they are intentional, and you are in control, you're golden. Cranking nice turns is a game. I do one or two jumps per year where my turns count for anything, and even then it's a FUN four way. See the caps? FUN. I use my canopy contol skills on every jump, and they keep me alive on every jump. Lets stop being so concerned with freefall stuff. If they can get and remain stable, and pull on time, they're good, lets move on to the next phase of the skydive, the canopy ride. Lets face it, you can teach someone to freefall in an afternoon (it's called the FJC). It's really not that hard. It's just falling. A rock can do it.

You can a TRV type mini dv cam real cheap on ebay, or even one of those Digital 8 cams that use the inexpensive tapes. Either one will work fine for ground footage and firewire. You could probably even buy a non-Sony camera for that matter. Check with consumer reports to see whats good for non-jumping. Don't worry about the jump-ability of the camera you'll buy now. By the time you are ready to jump it, who knows what new cameras or camera helmets will be out, and those will be the biggest factors in determining what camera to jump with. For that matter, you may be able to get a smoking deal on todays top camera from ebay by the time you're ready to jump something.

I see you quoted my entire post. Did you have something to add, or just think it deserved repeating? I've hit the 'Post Reply' accidentaly before. Maybe that's what happened.

OK, I see now. They missed the point by an even bigger margin that I had prevously thought. Why go to the time, trouble and cost of producing and distributing the video, and not make it instructional? The biggest hurdle is acually making the video. Once you're already doing that, why not make it useful? I would have been more than happy to do a couple of hop n pops to demonstrate whatever they needed for a certain shot. I'm sure many jumpers would have been happy to do the same. No offence to anyone involved, but what the fuck people? You're spending USPA money to make a video to support a poster who's message is deads simple, "Don't break your leg!"???????? The closest you could come to offering a plan of action toward said goal was, "Seek professional coaching", with the footnote being, "From some one else, because the United States Parachute Association isn't in THAT business (if you would like a shiney gold pin, we do have a nice selection of those however). I only wish I was making this shit up.

Good guess. It was the reverse of this that got us into the open canopy incident trouble that we're having now. Evryone got all excited about freefall, with AFF, and Skydive U, and forgot to update the canopy control portion to match the updates in canopy technology. If a jumper can get stable on demand, and knows how to pull, they've got the basics covered for freefall. Many of the same jumpers know very little about canopies, how and why they fly, and the best way to handle them. Canopy control is a skill that they will us eon every jump, from 400 ways to solos. Freefall skills are limited to certain jumps depending on what sort of jumps you are making. Freefall skills, short of being stable and knowing how to pull, will not save your life. This, of course, does not apply to people getting on jumps they're not qualified to make. Even with jumpers making poor choices about what to do in freefall, collisions represent a very small protion of the incidents. Fuck any additional freefall training. It's taking up time you could spend teaching people how to finish saving their ass (pulling is only the start of the process), and what worse, is it's giving the impression that freefall skills should be the focus of jumpers energy as the progress from student to fun jumper.

Agreed. Which is why you see qualified TMs who use a 90 are smooth with the toggles, and are not 'whipping' anything. Maintaining line tension and position under the wing are the hallmarks of a goodcanopy pilot. Toggle whipping in any context is the hallmark of an idiot.

This can be solved with proper training. If you teach studetns from day one (of stall training) that goingot full flight from a stall is a bad thing, they won;t be tempted to do so. Show them how throwing your hands up to recover is abad thing, that will be the last thing they'll want to do when the canopy stalls. Teach them that the stall is contained within a few inches of toggle stroke. You enter in a slow and controlled fashion, and you exit the same way. Have them lock their arms down, thumbs pointed up, and work the stall with wrist action. Thumbs down to stall, thumbs back up to recover. This is exactly how I was taught, and in fact it was with about the same number of words it was explained to me. Maybe I was a better than average student, but I got it right away, and with a little more explanation, and maybe some ground training in a hanging harness (with bungee toggles), I don't see how anyone could not get the concept. Even if their in-air performance is less than stellar, even if they come close they'll be in good shape. Even if the blow it 100%, and unevenly rocket the toggle back to the guide rings, provided they have sufficient altitude, and an appropriate canopy, they can handle whatever situation they create.

Were these TM's, doing tandems when this happened? One point that seems to be missed here is that what TMs are doing wouldn't be considered a 'hook' turn on a sport canopy. A brake surge, or an easy 90 is far from a hook turn, and thats what most TMs use when they want some extra speed. I know that pro swoopers and highly experienced jumpers have been badly hurt with high performance landings, but when was that last pro swooper hurt doing a 90 approach? On a lightly loaded canopy? It easy to see how a multi rotational approach, on a heavily loaded x-brace, where you're getting up around 60 or 70 MPH, combined with a pond, and some tricks can be dangerous. However, what TMs are doing is far from that. They are doing 90's, on a mid performance canopy, generally with a WL around 1.0. That's a much different scenario that the swoop scenario I outlined above. With that said, there are TM's who are capable, and TMs who are not. With a 500 jump min. for getting a tandem rating, and alot of guys starting the course with 501 jumps, there's going to be a wide range of skills and abilities within the ranks of the TMs. I know TMs who can barely land their sport rigs straight in, and for these folks, hooking anything is out of the question. I also know TM's who jump high WL Velos, and are doing multi rotational, high speed swoops every jump they put on them. The tandem scenario is such a far departure from what they are used to, that I don't even think they make a consious decision to land in one way or another, they simply land the parachute. Tha action itself, is so far within their confort zone and abilities, that it's almost subconsious. I don't do tandems, but I do swoop hard on every jump. I know that when I borrow a rig, with any canopy bigger than my Velo (even another Velo), I feel a significant reduction in my workload with the slower canopy. It's not that I don't respect the canopy or the ground, but as a swooper, you get so used to working at a certain level, that any reduction in performance really takes the pressure off. Hooking a tandem is no different than hooking any other canopy. It is 100% dependent on the ability of the pilot, both in piloting skills and the ability to accurately judge if those skills are sufficient for the task at hand. Of course the incident reports show that many aspiring swoopers are no good at judging their own abilities, but that another story.

It's called a freebag, and once the PC or superPC strips it off the reserve, you're in slider city. Really. Base and tandems both keep the PC/drouge attached to the canopy as it opens, thus you need to consider it when looking at openings.

Understand with proper technique, and the right approach, a stall and recovery is not the spinning demon seed some people think it is. The entry and exit from a stall can be a very controlled and methodical event, especially at lower WL. CREW guys will use a mild stall in four way rotation. The top guy will pop up and over the stack, stall his canopy, and ride downthe burble to dock on the bottom. If satlls weren't safe, I don't think anyone would be doing them ten feet behind a three stack. Bad experiences with stalls are the result of poor or non-existant training. Just like you can screw up alot of things by doing it wrong, so to is the case with stalls. People seem to forget that once you open your canopy, you've avoided a terminal impact, but now you're alone with your canopy, and it's the tool you are going to use to save your life. Not knowing the full scope of it's capabilities is really like flying partially blind. It's stupid. Just becasue it's the norm, doesn't mean it's right.

Heres where your lack of information is showing. A stall is not instantaneous at lower Wl, they develop. If you have experienced a satll, you will recognize the feeling, and know what is happening. The correct action os to not apply any more brakes, your canopy is already flying as slow as it can. Without experience in stalls, the immediate reaction to things not goign well during landing is to finish the flare, which in this case will accelaerate the stall and worsen the sitaution. Wrong again. Stalls are not unsafe, at an apporpriate altitude, and with appropriate technique. Youare mistaking inflation with being the determining factor between a bad and good canopy. This is also incorrect. Provided you are in control of it, the inflation or deflation of your canopy above 2000ft is your business. I never suggested this on jump one. The OP is in jump 15. Beleive it or not, the current system of training is shorting jumpers in the area of canopy control. Jump one is a very supervised enviorment, with a huge weath of info to absorb. Seeing as the number of jumpers who return for jump #2 is small, and jumper #3 is even smaller and so on, by the time a guy is at 8 or 10 jumps, it's time to consider that he is a skydiver, and will continue on to self jumpmaster. At this point it's time to get serious and persue the trainig you need to keep jumping. How much have YOU read? My first post on this matter suggested gettign a canopy coach for an hour, and learning what he needed to know the right way. Continuing to repeat this does not make it true. The overall point is, and yor position is a great illustration, that jumpers do not have a good understaning of canopy flight. Beyond basic freefall stability, the majority of training should be focused in canopy control, and aerodynamic theory. Every jump is the equivilant of an engine-out scenario for a pilot, and jumpers are far under preparred for the situations that could present themselves. Your problem is that you are dealing with your reality, which is based on the old way of doing things. My reality is based on forward thinking, and working with what could, and should be the norm, which is complete and thourough training in the area of canopy control. There's a reason that Scott Miller and Brian Germian teach stalls to ALL of their students regardless of their experience.

Nothing for you to worry about. Get good a packng the regular way first, then experiement with other ways. Try laying your D-bag out at the top of your canopy after you have laid it down. When you cocoon it, use the D bag as a guide, and try to coccon it so it is slightly narrow-er than the D bag. The cocoon will 'grow' as you fold it, and the end result should be about the same size as the bag. As your folding skills develop, you'll want to reverse this porcess to ensure that you are filling the bag. When you can fold the canopy with no change in width from the cocoon, you want to shoot for an inch wider on each side, so it fills the corners nicely. Again, this is something to worry about later on in your packing education. For now, just try to plan ahead a little for what you're going to do, and that should help a little. Otherwise, tough it out, learning to pack just sucks.

It easy. Have the DZO or S&TA review the rules of the DZ with them, specificaly those pretaining to the pattern and landings. If he does it again, his day is over. I don't care who you are, you go to someone elses DZ, you play by their rules, or you go home.

This is also why when you hear of Cypres fires during a main opening, and the jumpers swear that their alti read this and their Pro Track said that, that they are full of shit. All of those instruments (Cypres included) will experience variations in readings during significant changes to their situation. If your Cypres fires in any way, you blew it. You shouldn't be within 1000 ft of that thing going off. Ever.

Herold, Please understand that you've stumbled into a 'private' discussion between skydivers. It is in a public forum, but the proceedings are really only meant for skydivers, as the topics are generally of interest to skydivers. The issue at hand is really the conduct between two owners of competing skydiving operations, and is limited to these people. I would say that the actions or behavoirs they are displaying are limited to their actions toward each other. The general public, local government, and non-involved skydivers would never be treated in the fashion that they are treating each other. Imagine competing car dealerships. Beofre the doors open in the morning, the owners may complain, and conspire against the guy across town, but once the doors open, the customers and community can expect only the best treatment. The skydiving operation will be a benefit to your community. The issues raised in opposition are not valid, and far reaching in thier attempt to keep this business from opening. The central theme of this discussion is, in fact, the mis-information being spread. Please understand that this is the work of the owners of competing skydive centers in the arrea, and should not be considered a reflection of the individual looking to open a skydive center in your neighborhood. As I understand it, it looks like there is a good chance that the center will indeed open. Please take an afternoon, and stop by to see the operation and meet both the staff, and recreational jumpers on hand. I think you'll find them to be polite and considerate people who will welcome you as a spectator, and take the time to answer any questions you may have.

If this happens it's your riggers fault, not the skyhook. Once the reserve clears the freebag, the opening is all slider. If you hooked the Skyhook to your slider, you might have point. Otherwise, you've got your facts a little mixed up.

Burbles and stuff. This isn't rocket science, and being within a few hundred feet is pretty good.

You are way off base with your attitude toward stalls. A stall is just another flight mode, that needs to be practiced and understood. First off the OP is not jumping a student canopy. Furthermore, the only thing keeping a student canopy from stalling is longer brake setting, and an extremely low stall speed (thanks to the low WL). Either one of those can be overcome by factors outside of the jumpers control. As line sets go out of trim, brake settings can get closer and closer to allowing a stall, and one tall lanky jumper is all it takes for a student canopy to fold up. How about when that same canopy is on final approach anf the flare co-incides with a diminshing protion of a wind gust? That sounds like a drastic reduction in arispeed, and the onset of a stall. What is the jumper, with no stall experience to do then? My guess is that they would pull the toggles down further, in an attempt to slow down, which is what they always did in the past. In that instance, it would be wrong. With no experience as to the feeling of approaching, and the devolpment of a stall, the jumper has no idea what happening. Thats bad. Stalls are an important part of the education needed to safely fly a canopy. To suggest that they are unsafe, and should be avoided unitl a later date is just plain wrong. What needs to happen is for jumpers to seek out some additional education on the proper technique for stalls and stall recovery, and then they need to practice it on a solo pass at 5k, with no traffic present. Maybe fill out your profile with some realistic information, so other jumper can guauge where the advice is coming from. What you are suggesting is coming from a limited base of knowledge and experiene, yet others have no way of knowing that, and may follow your lead, which is doing than a great dis-service. If you really want to be safe, learn to close your mouth and open your ears. I carefully listen and consider every viewpoint I come across. Sometimes even a whuffo will just blurt something out that really makes sense (not very often, but it happens).

Take a drive and have a look. Do it on a weekend, when the weather is nice, so you can see the place when they're up and running. Ask for ten minutes with an instructor or DZO (drop zone owner) or DZ manager, tell them you want to start AFF, and have them tell you about their program. Then drive to two other DZ's near you and do the same. Compare the results, and your impressions, and make your choice based on that. A few hundred bucks isn't a whole lot in this game. Put the money out of our mind, and see where you feel the most comfortable, and you get the best vibe. Also, the one with most chicks is always a good choice.