davelepka

OK, thats fair. In extreme cases, underloading is possible. If you put a baby under a tandem main, then yes, maybe thats underloading. This discussion is about the 'ideal' WL that people are trying to assign to swooping canopies, and if being under that 'ideal' would be underloading. The jumper in question was wondering is loading an Xfire at 1.6 would be 'underloading', which is rediculous.

That wasn't the point. The point was, contrary to your assertion, that jump numbers do matter. Coaching, education, and talent all help to develop skills, but you need the jumps to really know what you're doing. I'm not sure of your jump numbers, but try to think back to when you had half as many jumps as you do now. How much did you know then? How much did you think you knew then? How much more do you know now?

Chad, Get your panties out your crack and relax. I'm sure you'll do fine with the ectra baggage. You've always been a conservative pilot, just keep that up. If you really have cocnerns, Sherry might have a 210 around that you can hook up to your container when you're at the DZ. If not, you could aslo ask around, and see who has a 210 you can borrow, and then just jump on days when they won't be around. Let me know of you need any help with the rigging if you do deciede to borrow a canopy.

Nice try, but your sail boat is attached to the water, and moving through the air mass. Your canopy is not attached to anything, and is moving with the air mass.

Write yourself a flight plan before you jump. Include the wind speed, and direction, the exit and opengin points, and your intended landing point and the pattern you will use to get there. If you find yourself landing off, it's not hard to simply translpant the landng pattern to your new landing point. Be preparred and educate yourself about your enviornment before you jump so you don't have to do it during your jump.

I've heard this before. I have question, then - Why am I a better skydiver now, then I was last year? Or two years ago? Or four years ago? Four years ago I had probably 3000 jumps or so, so I should have been on top of my game. Why is it that my skills continue to improve from year to year? I've actaully been doing progressivly fewer jumps per season for the last few years, and I am absolutley less athletic than I used to be, but still, I end each season a better jumper than I was at the end of the previous season. Please help me understand.

That quote from Vladi really backs up what I am saying. It's funny you mention the Sabre2. I had a thought after I wrote the last post, which is who knows what the 'ideal' Wl is for a Sabre2? How about the Spectre? Or how about for any canopy not known for swooping? Nobody does, because it doesn't exist. All kids of people jump different sizes at different loadings and are happy with the performance. In reality it's the same for swooping canopies as well. People are tricked into thinking that one thing or another is the 'right' thing. Then they strap on lead, or downsize to meet that false standard. The right size for a swooping canopy is two-fold. Firstly it's whatever size you can realisticly jump safely, on any day, in any conditions, with the secondary factor being what's fun for you. Here's a clue for swoopers - you need at least 1000 Hp landings, with at least 700 or 800 of them on the same wing to really even know what you 'need' to get some extra perofrmance. Until you reach that level, jump what you can handle in a worst-case-scenario, and what you think would hurt the least if you should fuck up.

Yeah, whatever. You're missing the point by a mile (or more). I stand beinhd the concept that there is no underlaoding, and there is no 'ideal' WL. You tell me then, what is an idela WL? Go ahead I'll wait.... .....oh, I see, you need to know what kind fo canopy, the size fo the jumper, and more importantly, what the jumper wants to do with it. If I could tell you all that, then you could give me the answer though, right? Just one thing, what if I changed one of those things, would that make a difference? I meam it's not like the pro guys change canopy sizes or WL for different events or anything......wait, I take that back, they do change. So for certain purposes, and certain size people, there are 'ideal' WL, sure. This is where you difted into another county from my point. It was proposed that the jumper in question might be underloading the canopy he was looking at. The point is, underloading for what? There is no such thing as underloading, or an ideal WL. WL is 100% dependent on who you are, and what you want to do with the canopy. The myth that certain canopies 'need' to be 2.2 or whatever is just that, a myth, and futhermore, it's pushing new swoopers to fell that they aren't 'there' unitl they are jumping at these baseless WL's. It's causing weekend jumpers to think that they are giving something up by jumping at 1.8 instead of 2.2, when some extra skill could make up the difference in swooping, and the extra sq footage could make up the difference when landing off or in the case of an incident. It's a myth thats pushing WL higher than most people will ever need. As I said, there was always an idea of what was too high. What represented a serious loss of performance and increase in stall speed. The 'ideal' WL associated with canopies are simply one step back from this level. It's not ideal. There is no such thing as ideal as each jumper and each jump has different requirements. Open your eyes, look beyond what you know, and get some perspective. Call John LeBlanc at PD and see what he says. Ask him what the ideal loading on a Velo is. He'll come back with questions about you and what you want to do. Why? Each situation is different, and a universal 'ideal' does not exist.

It simple. Enough car buyers are either uninformed, trying to buy more car than they can afford, or have poor credit that the dealers can get away with whatever they want. Screwing with terms and % on loans, moving money around a trade-in, adding extras you don't need or want, or whatever else they can come up with, thats the way they train their sales people. On the off chance that an informed, qualified customer comes along, they give it the old college try, and try to work them over as well. I took a 3 yr old car in to maybe trade for something with better gas milage. I needed to knwo what they give me in trade, to see how far it would be from the buyout on the loan. I was willing to loose $1000 or $1500 on the deal, but if it was more than that, I'd sell the car myself. Anyway, I went to the local dealership, told the guy my story, and asked for an appraisal. He told me they wouldn't give me an appraisal until I signed an order to buy a new car. I asked for the manager, who told me the same thing. I exlpained again, I wasn;t sure if I would trade or sell privately, and If I sold privately, I wouldn't be ready to buy unitl the car sold. They held their position, so I went home, called another dealer 30 min away, went there that night, got the appraisal, and bought a car on the spot. I actually worked as a car salesman for 6 weeks. I went through the training, saw the process, sold a few cars, and then quit and found a job where people didn't hate me unitl after I screwed them over.

Well, I took 11 years, and spent just about every waking moment thinking about parachutes, or jumping parachutes. I was swooping before it was called 'swooping'. I saw the concept of the 'ideal WL' arise in the wake of swoop comps. I was around when the same guys who designed todays canopies were selling yesterdays canopies, and the concept of an 'ideal' Wl was non-existant. Do youthink that they just overlooked the concept? There was the idea of what was too high, but aside from that, Wl was all related to what you wanted to do with a canopy. How fast do you want to go, or how far do you want to go, take your pick. It's bullshit that jumpers have made up. Notice how the ideal WL, and wing size keeps changing? And how every pro has their own ideas on WL and canopy size? It's because there is no one answer. Different jumpers want different things from canopies, and put different things into different canopies. There are too many variables in the system to declare that input A will result in a maximum output of B. Trust me. This isn't a knock on you, but you haven't been jumping long enough to know any better. This whole thing was just coming around as you were just coming around. With no pre-concieved notions about what right or wrong, you took it at face value, and believe it to be true. Again, not your fault, it's just your timing landed you where you are. It's like any sport. When the top guys do it one way, everyone wants to follow. Sure, I can't compete in the PST, but I can jump what they do, so now if I get their skills I have the whole package, right? Not really, but you get the idea. Try jumping the same canopy in six different sizes, and measure your performance. Jump a few above and few below what you've heard is the 'ideal' WL. You'll see that the differences are slight, and that pilot skill could easily change that. We had a guy on a Velo 75 at 2.6 or 2.7 take the distance round at a CPC meet last year. According to the 'ideal' WL, he was too heavy and on too small of a wing. But he nailed it and went far. He beat out good swoopers on Velos at 2.4, 2.2, and 1.9. See? It's really almost a marketing ploy, like expensive basketball shoes, but it's not put forth by the mfgs, it's being circulated by the jumpers.

Handling themselves how? Grabbing their junk? Those people who tell you you're talented may have fucked you over. They should have said you have potential, meaning that one day, you'll have some skills if you work on it. Now your a new guy who thinks he's got something that others don't. The trouble is, you don't find this out until you A) get hurt, when you find out you're not any different, or B) you jump for a decade or so, and it turns out you do have what it takes to make it. What doesn't help your situation is that you have made a shitload of jumps in a short time, only adding to your feelings of superiority. The hot tip is to forget your jump numbers, and operate off your time in the sport. Remember that you'r every new to jumping, and there are alot of situations you haven't encountered. As far as your canopy thing, see what your instructors think about a donwsize. A 150 wouldn't be that far off the mark, keeping in mind that you need to slow yourself down if plan to speed your canopy up. Ease into the new wing. Make sure you ask the old, stodgy instructors, thats where you'll get the best advice.

OK, a few comments - first off, underloading is a myth. There's ZERO truth to any of that. Any assertion that X canopy flies best at Y WL is bullshit. One canopy may provide good performance for one pilot at one WL, but chnage the pilot or the purpose, and that WL is all wrong. Ignore anyone who tells your WL is 'wrong' (unless ther're telling you it's too high, and then maybe listen in). Second off, the idea that you own and jump a Sabre2 135, but feel the need to upsize to learn how to swoop is a little odd. Again, there's nothing 'wrong' with that, but it makes it hard to understand where you're coming from. The idea that you feel that your Sabre2 won't get you home seems a bit off. You shoul dhave good glide perofrmance with that canopy at your WL. I would look into that. About swooping - it's fast and aggressive, and you will be pushing your canopy hard a low altitudes. Make sure that this is what you really want. You say you want a canopy that opens 'easy' and doesn't turn so fast. Thats a square canopy, they don't make the best swooping canopies. If you're wanting to swoop, you need to move to a place where you are in charge of the canopy, not the other way around. Take control of the openings. Work out a pack job, and a course of action for openings. Learn to work with your canopy if it wants to turn, and make sure you can keep your head on straight if things get little crazy. You'll need those skills when you satrt going fast close to the ground. About your 'knowledge', who or what you know means very little. I know all sorts of stuff about flying ariplanes. My dad if a CFI, and I spent my youth in the back seat of a 172 while he taught students. That said, if you see me behind a yoke, run the other way. I have no experience flying airplanes. Swooping is the same way. You are starting from square one. Period. Your reading, watching, talking and studying mean very little, and entitle you to nothing. Make sure you know this, and make sure you truely believe this before you go forward. You are the same beginner as a guy who can't even spell 'swoup'. The long and short of it is, that canopies that are good for swooping, are going to be bad at other things, like being stable and forgiving. If you want to accept swooping, you have to accept all that goes along with it. If you have a canopy that goes fast, it will always be fast. If you push it close to the ground, the ground will win out every now and then. If it flies fast and dives fast, it will turn fast, and mal even faster. That said, I say swoop on. Demo a few canopies, and then spend your money on some one on one coaching with your Sabre2.

We have a winner!!!!!

So do you turn away from the tandem before you open? If not, your backsliding away, then opening your main, and flying right back under the tandem.

Keep in mind that an off heading opening from either tandem or camera man will cancel out any sort of track. Any tandem mal that does not involve an open canopy with a forward speed component such as a streamer, or any spinning mal, will have the tandem cutting away and opening the reserve in the same column of air that the TM and camera were just falling in. The surest way for the camera man to get out of that column is to open a canopy in the column. The forawrd speed of the canopy, in any direction, will carry the camera man away from the column. If that camera tracks away, and has a 180 off-heading, he'll be flying back into the column. Of course, if they both have spinning mals, they'll both be in the column getting reserves open. The hope than is that the slower nature of a tandem mal, along with the RSL, will have the tandem reserve out, and providing forward movement before it makes up the altitude difference from the freefalling camera man. Addiitonally, the typically faster speeds of a solo mal., combined with the fatser opening reserves, will have the camera lower, and flying away faster. The bottom line is that any time you have a vertical separation, you have to be extra careful. Watch the opening until the slider comes down, ensuring that the tandem has stopped. If it takes too long for the slider to come down, pay attention to where you are, and where you are going during and after your opening. Look past the canopy on opening, and try to keep visual contact with the tandem. Be ready on the rear risers to turn and avoid if need be. There is no cookie-cutter answer to the best' way to handle yourself after pull time. It's a dynamic situation that requires constant evaluation and action.

I guess my other thought about it is that you can get a better deployment shot of the student from below and off to the side. If you back off enough to make it safe, you loose the chance to get a face shot on deployment. If you get low on them, you can get the student in the foreground, with the canopy up and behind. I'll add this - I knwow that there are alot of cool angles, and different shots to go for. However, I look at it like the passenger hired me to take pics of them making a skydive. I think the more you can show of them (as in their face) making their jump, the better. It's easy to want to mix it up. Doing the same old thing gets boring, HOWEVER, for the passenger, making the jump is anything but 'the same old thing'. I try to keep myself amused during the freefall. I'll slide in and get the obligatory shots, and then if the situation presents itself, move around, and see what angles look good that jump. A real heads up student lets me get some good 'standard' shots quickly, and then I get to play a little. If the student isn't looking good, I hold off on the playtime just in case they wake up, and then I'm already there, catching the moment. But as far as pull time goes, the safest way to be as close as possible is just out of trap door range, and off to the side. It's also one of the safest places to be (provided you don't 'play' with the distances and try to get too close).

There's no flaming needed. You're a big boy and can make your own choices. It's a no-penalty safety upgrade. Stay on level, or get down low on your back. It's easy. It's not like you have an uninformed non-jumper around counting on you and the TM to watch out for them or anything....

Fuck that jive. A dude got killed doing that last year. Use a shot that hasn't killed anyone, the customer doesn't know the difference. For the record, the c-man in the incident had a shitload of jumps, some ratings, and everyone agreed that he was a heads-up flyer. I'm sure he thought he being safe, and that everything would be fine.

It sounds like you should worry less about the minute details of your openings, and more on gear maintenence. Seriously. What else is 90% worn through on your rig?

Thats your answer. Jump that thing as much as you can, and when it feels like part of you, sell it a get a smaller one.

Really? Who the hell are his friends? I got a ton of what turned out to be bad advice when I was starting out. Advice that I would never give anyone in the same boat. Anyway you want to cut it, you've got a guy with 280 jumps total, and 200 on a square canopy loaded at 1.3 who thinks he can do it all. You don't need to be close to the situation to know that jumping to a higer performance canopy at 1.7 is a bad idea.

So 200 jumps on the squarest of square canopies, and he thinks he ready to take on the world. As far as your comment in the first post that he has 'done it all' with his current canopy, I disagree. I don't know the guy, and have never heard anything about his skils, but jumps 81 thru 280 on any canopy will not have up to speed on that wing. MAYBE if it was jumps 1001 thru 1200, he would have a good handle on things. Maybe. Also, what the deal with the 40 lbs? Weightlifter? Roids? I hope so. If it's fat, I'd like to see him try to run out a landing at 1.7. On top of that, if he blows it, and hits the ground, that 40 lbs will just hammer him that much further into the ground. Good stuff. Clue your buddy in, the DZO is pushing it with what he'll allow. He's being very liberal, and your buddy should be thankful for that, and try not to let his ego spiral him into the ground.

I gotta ask - are you still jumping a Triathalon at 1.2? If so, I'm not sure that swooping anything at 1.65 (which in itself is oddly specific) is a good idea.

There is no disconnect. You should be clear on where you are, and where you are going when you leave the aircraft. End of story. If you do find youreslf too far out, you already have a plan in place for landing (including which direction you will face). Instead of spending time trying to determine your drift, you should be spending then time scouting out suitable landing areas. In selecting an LZ for an off-field landing, you should initailly qualify several locations. Select the best of the suitable locations, and spend you time studying it as you draw closer. Single power lines, thin wire fences, and angry bulls may nto be visible from higher altitudes, and the sooner you spot them, the better your chance for bailing, and using an alternate spot. If you have to land off, stick with the plan as far as your pattern, and direction of final, just do it over another area. Spend your time ensuring that your flying yourself into a safe LZ. You'll be comitted to your choice sooner than you think, so spend you time choosing wisely, not staring between your feet and playing with your brake settings. What if you should find yourself doing an off-field downwinder? It shouldn't matter. Your plan should be to do a good PLF up unitl the last two feet. Landing in a 'clear and open' field is different than landing on an established DZ. Even the best un-improved field may be hiding tall grass and gopher holes. You have no idea what you're getting into, and should be ready for a PLF unitll you can see your actual touch down point, and see that your canopy will slow you enough to allow you to negotiate whatever holes, ridges, ruts, small animals or shrubs that may be in front of you. Even with 4000 jumps, I'm planning on a PLF on every off field landing I do. Not unitl I'm two feet from touchdown do I evaluate my speed, and the terrain and make the PLF/ no PLF decision.

He really is. If you watch the Energy Management Routine (the link is mid-page) you get to hear him speak about flying. He makes some great comments about flying, and limitations, and the results of pushing them too far that can really be applied to skydiving. It's easy to see how he's been flying at that level for so long.