Hooknswoop

How tight is your pin? Hook

Flying isn't cheap either. Let's make it cheaper, less hours requirements, less instruction requirements, lower the performance standards to become a pilot, so that anyone making minimum wage can afford to be a pilot. Sound like a good idea? I disagree. You are suggesting that lower standards of training is OK. I disagree. "Wanting to give back to sport" does not qualify someone to be an AFFI. It is expensive and I'm not rich. I had to sacrifice to pay for the course. If you want it bad enough, there is a way. Pack canopies, get your tandem rating and save the $$$. Buy a camera and learn to shoot video. Of course, this option is at least as expensive as an AFFI rating, and you make $0.00 for a while until you are good enough to charge for your services. Are you suggesting that we offer AFFI rating to people for free if they can't afford the course? The standards for AFFI's must be high, or students will pay the price. Making good money as a full time Instructor is not easy. It is expensive to get to the level where you are paid to skydive, and then the work is hard, the days long, and the health insurance is non-existent, unless you pay for it yourself. Hook

"hook, the cobalt and alpha/space have an excellent track record with begineers. if i accidentally interchanged 'student' with 'begineer' my appologies. again the recomendation is that anyone safe on a sabre,safire or hornet will be equally safe if not more so under a cobalt. we stand behind this recommendation as do many sta's and instructors. also i have several book recomendations for you on basic aerodynamics which i think you will appreciate. unfortunately i am snowed out of the office today. i will try to post them for you tomorrow. " I asked you, plain as day: "Your student canopy, do you mean the Cobalt? " You responded: "yes i mean the cobalt and previously the space/alpha. " " accidentally interchanged 'student' with 'begineer'" Hmmmm. From a previous post: "so yes our student canopy is considerably more elliptical than many canopies you will see in swoop competitions." I asked you: "Do you recommend putting students under Cobalts at a 1.2 wing loading?" You responded: "yes, anyone you would consider safe under a sabre, safire or hornet is equally safe on a cobalt." You have used "student" instead of "beginner" several times……………. I then asked you, after you said the Cobalt makes a good student canopy: "Has this been done before? " You answered: "yes " I AGAIN ask you: "What DZ uses Cobalt 170's (and possibly smaller? Cobalts) as student canopies? " I asked you: "Does Atair have a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt?, not a recommended wing loading chart, most manufactures have those, PD has it right on the label. " You answered: "check out our web site faq page. " I responded: "I did, you have a "recommended wing loading" chart, same as every other manufacturer. I asked if you have "a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt" So where is Atair's chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt?, after all "with dataloggers 1 jump per wingloading (although more is better) is all that is needed to gather the data required for a super performance chart. the pilot must fly a general routine" I asked you: "Why do you say a square canopy (Sabre) will have more forward speed at the same wing loading as the Cobalt, but the Cobalt has less drag and is more efficient? Isn't this contradictory? " You responded: "no it isn't. " I still do not understand this, and you still have not explained it to me. "i'm tired of explaining that 'planform does not dictate performance skill level, the sum total of many design variables dictate if a design is a pro swoop canopy or a student canopy'." So what is the Cobalt?, a "pro swoop canopy or a student canopy". I am an Instructor. I have been since 1995. I would not put a student or beginner under a Cobalt, a "High Performance Canopy". No more than I would use a Stiletto for a student or a beginner. Dan- are you an Instructor? Have you used Cobalt 170's as student canopies, or for beginners? "and btw we have always used pia standards of measure." Like your definition of a cell? http://www.pia.com/piapubs/TS%20Documents/ts-100.pdf Hook

Dan- What DZ uses Cobalt 170's (and possibly smaller? Cobalts)as student canopies? Again, where? I did, you have a "recommended wing loading" chart, same as every other manufacturer. I asked if you have "a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt" So will Atair be offering charts using data from "our new inertial nav. unit. data is recorded to flash cards 360' yaw, pitch, roll, acceleration and velocity in all axis, angular rates up to 1200' / sec, plus 3dimensional gps accurate to 2m, barometric altitude, 4 riser links, + desired aditional sensors. " for Colbalts? Hook

OK, I'm with ya here. I see what you are saying. It is possible that in order to have no tail deflection while pulling down the front risers, the steering lines have to be lengthened to the point that the pilot is no longer able to completely flare tha canopy. This is rare in my experience. The fix is longer risers, moving full up (0 degrees) up, which increases the amount of toggle input full flare (180 degrees) gives the pilot. If you run into this situation (lengthening your steering lines so that they no longer deflect the tail while in front risers) causes you to no longer ba able to flare the canopy completely, sacrifice the ideal setting for for the complete flare. In that situation, again I think it is rare, it would be a trade off. I would not recommend setting up your steering lines so that a complete flare is not possible. I don't think that very many canopy/riser/arm length combinations create this situation. A lot of high performance canopy pilots finish their flare no where near full arms extension. Thank you for bringing this up, it was an oversight I should have covered. Hook

I think he ment the freefall portions focus on belly flying, not free-flying. I wear a sidewinder w/ a PC-101 on AFF/AFP/Coach dives. Works very well. No sight to get in the way. Wide angle lens gets the shot. Turn it on before exit and forget about it. Hook

If he is going to ship it somewhere to have it done, might as well ship it to the manufaturer. Hook

It would involve tearing apart the corner of the container, adding in the pocket material, then re-sewing it. It would take a heavey duty straight and zig-zag machine and someone that really knew what they were doing. Best bet is to have the manufacturer do it, if they will. Hook

I agree, I don't teach students to land w/ rear risers if their steering lines are fine. I think we are on the same page Hook

I see what you are saying the lighting (I have a Dragon 218 BTW) is set up for CReW, not landing. I find it odd that canopy that is set up for front risering makes the steering lines too long to be able to flare completely. My Dragon has a fairly short control range for the size of the canopy. It isn't set up for front riserr turns, but I could lengthen the steering lines quite a bit and still get the full flare (what there is of it anyway) out of the canopy. There are, of course, exceptions to every rule, and the Lighting is a very task-specific canopy. Maybe in order to correctly set the steering lines for front riser work, they have to be so long the pilot won't be able to finish the flare without ridiciously long risers. Now I want to jump a Lighting. Hook

and the cutaway handle is very difficult to get to on BASE rigs. Some base rigs don't have 3-ring releases at all. Tom can answer this better than I , but 3 rings in BASE are used because it is an easy way to remove and switch canopies, or cutaway after landing, or if you land in water and are having problems. They aren't used for cutting away high "G" malfunctions. Completely different application. I haven't seen riser inserts in BASE either. Apples and oranges. Hook

I use the same set-up technique as SkymonkeyONE on my VX. I haven't had a problem with riser pressure. I have very long steering lines to help keep riser pressure down, (6.5 inches longer than fatory mark) Hook

I agree, if the velcro did hold (figure the odds), having the slider keeper on the reserve flap gives it another place it can come de-tached, and if it doesn't it should come off when the reserve is fired. If the reserve PC entangles with the main, you get the Skyhook action without the Skyhook price Hook

The ones I make go on the reserve flap and definately would not hold a jumpers weight in the off chance of cutting away after stowing the slider. Which fatality? I missed that one. Hook

Not from what I have seen. But I don't have any hard data either. Hook

Um, I think you should re-read what he wrote. The control range with rear risers is less that with toggles, and the canopy will stall at a higher airspeed, for the same reasons an airplane will stall at a higher airspeed than with the flaps down. Depending on the canopy and wing loading, landing a canopy on rear risers is not a big deal, especially if practiced before hand. I teach students to practice flying and flaring with the rear risers in case a steering line does break. I tell them to find out with a good canopy if they feel comfortable landing it on rear risers, so that if a steering line does break, they have already made their decision on whether or not they will land it or cutaway. I had a student land a canopy on rear risers, no problem. He had practiced rear riser turns and flares on the jump prior and on the second jump of the day, a steering line broke. Hook Hook

A side note, this applies to S/N's 22,900 and higher, I checked. Reverse risers, incorrectly manufactured mini risers, and mini risers w/o the re-inforcement tape, throw them away. Hook

They changed the format of the course to increase the pass rate. They should have offered a structured, official pre-course. Need more Instructors? More training not an easier course is the answer. I believe that the current format of the AFFCC imakes it easier to pass. The number of people getting AFFI ratings each much is huge compared to several years ago. I have personally seen the quality of Instructors go down. Just my observations/opinion. Hook

Right but if you wrap before you front riser, that defeats the purpose of having enough slack in your steering lines to prevent pulling down the tail while pulling down the front risers. Hook

Too much work for the lazy/cheap pencil packer type. Hook

Only if the pilot wasn't using the fromt risers to generate additional/extra speed for landing. Coming out of a front riser hook and trying to take a wrap on the steering lines would be a good concept for a long career. Hook

I had a stamp made to prevent pencil packing. It was a pain and cost $25.00. Someone might go through the trouble, but if they are too lazy/cheap to get their reserve re-packed, then they are probably too lazy/cheap to get a stamp made. Hook

Correct, the guide ring is placed 4 inches from the top of the riser, this is standard. Changing to longer risers increases the distance of the guide ring relative to the jumper's shoulders, increasing the amount of steering line pulled down at full flare. The question was, if the lines have been lengthened to the point that increasing the length any more would result in the jumper not being able to flare enough, what is the fix if the the steering lines are still too short? The only option is longer risers. If the steering lines were lengthened without changing to longer risers, the pilot wouldn't be able to flare the canopy enough for landing. Hook

1) There are AFFI's that can't/haven't caught students before they pull or the AAD fires...... 2) Increasing requirements so as to have better Instructors won't happen. At the 2001 PIA symposium, there was a presentation about the lack of Instructors. Long-term fixes were treating the Instructors better, increasing pay, that sort of thing. Short-term fixes were creating more Instructors. Pay hasn't changed and the AFFCC was changed to make it easier to pass. Increasing Instructor pay won't happen because it eats into the DZ's profit margin. Just pass the increase on to the student? That increases the cost of the skydive, resulting in less volume for the DZ, and less profit. 3) I agree S/L Instructors should be held to a higher standard than they are currently. 4) I believe a new AFFI should not be signed off to do solo AFF until after being signed off by an AFF Mentor, and only after a minimum of 25, 2 Instructor dives with that AFF Mentor. 5) Unless DZ's see a profit increase in it, Instructor standards will not go up. 6) The APF regulates it's Instructors and publishes disciplinary actions against Instructors every month in their newsletter. Even minor incidents are reported and published. USPA could learn a lot from the APF. Hook

Phree is right. If you cannot lengthen your steering lines any more, but still need to, then the only option is longer risers. Hook