Hooknswoop

Imagine if I asked the following on a SCUBA newsgroup: "I was doing my first open water dive with my Instructor. After we came up from 80 feet and stopped at 15 feet, I ran out of air. I gave my Instructor the 'out-of-air' signal and he gave me his octopus. We immediately went to the surface sine the Instructor was almost out of air too. Should I have skipped buddy breathing and just gone to the surface or did I do the right thing? We started the dive with 1800 PSI each, I went through my air a little faster than my Instructor.” What do you think the responses would sound like? Do you think no one would point out the dangerous position the Instructor put me in? Do you think that other divers might suggest I find a different Instructor? Do you think that people that dive with the Instructor might defend him and tell everyone how safe he is? Can you see why, based on my post, people would get the impression that he is not safe? Let’s say I only had 4 hours of diving instruction and wasn’t told that was too deep of a dive and not enough air, how much fault should I share for running out of air? I did a dive not too long after getting SCUBA certified in the Bahamas. It was to 155 feet (dive computer), 400 feet back into a cave (Guardian Blue Hole cave on Andros Island). We had over-pressurized single 80’s on and no specialized cave equipment. We didn’t even have back-up lights. I got Nitrogen Narcosis on the dive, but didn’t turn back, and had zero cave diving training or experience. I was in WAY over my head and didn’t even know it until I got more diving experience and realized how out of my depth I had been. I went of the dive because a friend of mine said, “Let’s go.” He knew my diving experience (4 or 5 dives-total), so I figured he would keep me out of trouble. Because I didn’t know any better, I was put into a dangerous situation. The original thread didn’t have a reply for almost a month, until this thread was started. It had been dropped. Derek

1) Charge him for 4 years of cable TV. 2) If he files a small claims suit, throw it out. Derek

Of course he was unaware that he couldn't jump in those conditions- "I did ask when they call it quits. And just ground the students. I was told that the winds can not be gusting more than 20 mph." Derek

I thought canopycudler was referring to the day in question. My fault. From the student that was backing up: "Actually there were a total of 4 student planes going up. My friend had taken the first jump course that day and we asked to go up together, so they bumped us back to last of the 4. The first 2 planes full of students, we stood there and watched all the students floating, backwards, right past the DZ and into the surrounding cornfields. I felt fortunate to be the last as to they would have the spotting down pat by the time they got to me!!! " [Quote]You are completely correct in saying that a for a student to be backing up is unsafe. Nobody is denying this but in stating that it is the fault of the instructor (I believe) is debatable. Finally. Several posters have been jumping up and down, exclaiming that it is a safe DZ. Putting students out in winds were they are backing up is no safe. Apparently they did this all day long, on the day in question. The Instructor should have been aware of the winds prior to taking up the student(s). If jumpers were backing up on the previous 4 loads and the winds hadn't changed, it is easy to conclude that the students should be allowed to jump. This is not a case of the winds increasing and the jumpers exiting without that knowledge. The Instructor knew the winds and went anyway. It is their responsibility and therefore, their fault. Being an Instructor is a big responsibility. [Quote]If you are saying that it is the fault of the instructor or drop zone then I guess if you go to driving school and have an accident it is the fault of your driving instructor. If they knowingly put me in a situation that is unsafe for a person to learn how to drive, then yes. If I had never driven a car and they took me on the freeway at night on my first outing, yes. How can someone with 3 jumps make a valid risk assessment of the conditions to determine if it is safe for a student? [Quote] I do not know anyone who can honestly guarantee that something like this won't happen. I can. “Hmm, the last four loads of jumper were backing up and they were using the same gear my student(s) would be using. Sorry Johnny, the winds are too high, I can take you up until they die down.” Not too difficult a thought process or decision. [Quote]Be prepared for any and all situations, student So, if I put a student out with a bad spot in 30-mph winds with a round reserve and they have a cutaway then they end up in power lines, it isn’t my fault, it is the student’s fault? I disagree. Instructors are not supposed to put students in unsafe situations. That is their responsibility, no the student’s. Derek

"The winds were averaging 20mph on Sunday."- Canopycudler People keep defending the DZ, but the facts remain. No one seems to deny the facts or deny that students backing up under canopy is un-safe. Derek

It is not the student's decision, it is the Instructor's. If jumpers were backing up using the same gear the student would use, the Instructor should not have taken the student up. Students should not be backing up under canopy. That situation is difficult enough for experienced jumpers. Derek

What's the difference betweeen a USPA GM DZ and a non USPA GM DZ? The GM DZ sends a check to USPA once a year. That's it. Derek

Soiunds like you packed a 'step-through'. Derek

I'm thinking the DZ in question didn't ban people from "stabbing your toggles, getting into the corner, inconsiderate of other traffic, etcetera", and had previously allowed such things. I'm sure they banned high perfomance landings. Derek

Guess they meant 1.45 Meters? Derek

I dunno, I got mine off-the-shelf. Derek

I would recommend the Aviator w/ the PD-281R that has a 300 lb max weight for a pilot that has never been under a parachute before. Edit: If that would fit in the largest Aviator. If not, then the largest PDR that would fit into the largest Aviator. Derek

Because I have flown, packed and thrown away the Raven-M's (I threw away a MR-109-M w/ the type-III line attachment point tape). I browsed the manual, but only found the instructions for setting it up with steering toggles. The PDR has a better flare, you can flare it past your shoulders, past your waist, and it doesn't stall. You can flare it high, and if it is a large enough canopy, it will sink it and land softly. I prefer the construction of the PD over the -M. The Aviator/PD-R combo is just what I would do if I needed a bail-out rig, based on my experiences. Derek

Tracking Thread Derek

The problem is, not all jumpers will listen and not all the advice being given is good advice. Jumpers helping other jumpers out is the system we have now, which doesn't work. I spent an entire reserve re-pack trying to convince a jumper w/ 200-ish jumps that hook turns with a Stiletto 135 isn't a good idea at this point. He simply didn't believe me. He has since hit vry hard, missing some paved ground only by hitting on one side and landing on the other. Derek

There used to be smaller RAvens that the 181 that aren't -M's, the Micro Raven 150 comes to mind. I think there was also a 135 and a 120 that weren't -M's. Derek

Just my opinion, but if the plastice slider stops on the stabilizers break, the slider go up into the stabilizer, jamming it up at the canopy. If the bar-tack that holds the slider stops in place fails, same thing. The other 2 are on the stabilizers also on other reserves. They are almost always metal. Derek

I believe the "hands-off" landing technique is to simply leave the brakes set. Even if the manual says no substitution of components is authorized, it up to the assembling rigger to determine compatibility. The manufacturer cannot overstep the FAR's and require the P-124 canopy any more than they could you to wear a pink jumpsuit when using their equipment. The Vector II label states that the rig is only compatible with the Safety Flyer reserve. If the manufacturer could state that, then putting any other reserve into a Vector II would be a violation of the FAR's and void the TSO. But it isn't. Derek

I looked over the Smart at Eloy What I liked: Lots of re-enforcement tape, including span-wise bottom skin tape. It is built tough and has good, quality construction. What I didn’t like: Only 4 plastic slider stops instead of 6 metal slider stops. One bar-tack across the top of the slider stops. (I have seen a bar-tack blow out of tandem mains) Derek

p-124 aviator with a PD reserve (yes it's legal). Square reserve, new technology container. Container form RI and reserve from PD or shp around PD dealers. If I needed a bail-out rig, that is what I would buy. Derek

Nope, got it.

No, the first 3 jumps are made with a tandem Instructor with a tandem rig. I don't understand your question. ZP has many advantages over F-111. A better flare is the biggest advantage. I have seen students flare late or early and still get a nice landing out of a ZP canopy when a F-111 canopy would have resulted in a PLF or hard landing. Also, learning on a ZP canopy will under the supervision and training of an Instructor instead of on your own after being cleared to self-jumpmaster sets the student up for success. There is more risk to the student if the learn on 288 sq ft F-111 7-cell canopies and then transition to a 190-ish sq ft ZP 9-cell canopy with the benefit of an Instructor watching and teaching. The risk to the DZ is initially lower because it is hard to get hurt under a 288 sq ft F-111 7-cell. Same thing for SOS, it is easier to train a student for SOS and easier for the to use, but the student pays for that initial less risk later with the higher risk of transitioning to a 2-handle system later. Edit: I don't know of any DZ that uses fully elliptical, high performance canopies for students. Derek

There has to be some force that causes the canopy to continue to spiral, otherwise it would fly straight. Derek

"Order Phone Only: 1-87-PARA-GEAR or 1-800-323-0437 Phone: (847) 679-5905 Fax: (847) 679-8644 3839 WEST OAKTON ST. SKOKIE, ILLINOIS 60076-3438 USA" Para gear's web page Derek

I would post in the wingsuit forum about recommended canopies for wingsuits. Derek