Hooknswoop

That's fine, but you haven't refuted my point. Someone that jumps a Racer can watch their rigger tighten the loop or read the manual and learn how to tighten the loop. It isn't hard and they have been accidently overtightened. I have never heard or seen or even know how to accidnetly over-tighten a non-pop top reserve. If I don't know how to (for example) overtighten a Mirage without breaking the seal, I'm confident that the owner won't either. Any time a reserve has loosened up that I have packed (it happends, but not very often) they have brought it back to me to open, replace the loop and re-close it. What I think does matter when I decide whether or not to risk my rigging ticket. I am not an attorney, but I see a problem that I don't see how to avoid. Do you tack the loop tothe cap of the Racers you pack? How do you tighten the pop top if needed later on? You simply brak the seal thread and tighten the loop. Tacking does not prevent the owner from doing the same thing. What if'ing till the cows come home has brought me out alive from some very tight spots and kept me out of others. I think I'll continue to do it. I think that if there is a problem and an investigation and all the evidence points to me being the cause of the problem, then I will be held responsible, even if I'm not. If they pull test the reserve to more than 22 pounds (w/o the seal) I don't think they'll care one bit if my logbook says "18-pounds". Derek

I'll add the Teardrop to the list of rigs I won't pack. It hasn't come up since no one has ever asked me to pack a Teardrop. You can accidently over-tighten a Mirage without breaking the seal? I think you are missing my point. I am not talking about intentional tampering. I am talking about the owner of a Racer that the pop top has lossened on. He observed his rigger tighten the loops and isn't around his rigger, so he figures he'll tighten it a little. He unknowingly over-tightens the pop top, creating an impossible pull. He goes in after cuting away w/o a Cypres because he can't pull the handle. The FAA investigates, finds an unbroken seal on the reserve and a 60-pound pull force. The rigger says"It wasn't that high of a pull force when I packed it." "Well, you packed it and the seal is still in place............" That is the scenario I am talking about, not intentional tampering. I don't think that tacking the line to the cap or recording the pull force in your logbook is a good defense against this scenario. Yes, any rig can be over-tightened. That is not what I am talking about. Yes, any rig can be tampered with. That is not what I am talking about. Racers have been accidently over-tightened and out of the riggers' hands and that is a FACT. I know a rigger that posts occasionally here that found a 50+ pound pull force because the owner had over-tightened the reserve because it has loosened up. That is not unproven speculation. Here is my original post on the subject.: "I can, but will not pack either Racers or Reflex's because the closing loop may be tightened from outside the container without disturbing the seal and may be accidentally over-tightened by a well-meaning rigger, the owner, or anyone else. This can: * create a pull above the maximum of 22 pounds * create an impossible pull * bend the ripcord pin. That leaves the rigger with the seal on the rig responsible for the over-tightened closing loop." You responded how riggers can do all 3 of those things to any rig. Again that is not what I am talking about. Read my post carefully. I'm talking about someone other than the packing rigger (the owner, a well-meaning rigger, or anyone else) tightening the loops because the pop top loosened and not to intentionally cause a hard pull, but by accident. Derek

You didn't answer my question; What other rigs besides the Racer or Reflex can the reserve closing loop(s) be tightened without breaking the seal? All the other stuff is fluff, for me, this is the issue. Derek

I never used an alitmeter for swooping. As for conditions changing, yes, they do, but not enough to matter. I could accurately pull at 2,500 +/1 200 feet, no problem. Every malfunction I had, I didn't need an altimeter. Trust your eyes first, and use altimeters as back-ups only. Derek

You cannot overtighten a Mirage, Vector, Javelin, etc in the field where the PC has loosened without breaking the seal. Yes, you can over-tighten any rig when you pack the reserve and that is not my worry. Again my worry is that once I pack the reserve, the owner, a well-meaning rigger, or anyone else may tighten the reserve closing loop(s), creating a hard or impossible pull. What other rigs besides the RAcer or Reflex can you do that with? We are talking reserve systems, not main systems. On the racer then entire cir cumference of the PC resets against the reserve container. If the PC loosens, then the edgs of the PC becomes immediately exposed. On other rigs where the PC is protected by flaps, if the PC loosens a little, the edges of the PC are still protected by the flaps. Derek

I think Bill was saying by 'internal pilot chute', the rigs with at least 2 flaps that cover the PC. Nost rigs have flaps that cover the PC. I agree that if you are going to pack a reserve, you better do it right (and I replace the resesrve (and main) closing loop on EVERY reserve pack job), but the point is Racers are more work. Replacing the reserve closing loop on a Racer or Reflex is a lot more work than replacing the closing loop on a Javelin, for example. I don't think Racers are that hard to pack, especially when you know the tricks, but they are harder than most rigs. Derek

Correct, but I can control that and once a rig leaves, if the PC loosens and needs to be re-tightened, The rig must be opened and the loop replaced, breaking the seal. With the Racer and Reflex, someone may tighten the loop without disturbing the seal. Those are the only 2 (U.S.) rigs like that. Again, tacking the end of the loop doesn't prevent the rig from being tightened without breaking the seal. Just because someone hasn't bounced because of it doesn't mean it won't happen. I'm not going to bet my ticket that it won't happen. I have heard of Racers that were over tightened, creating an impossible pull. I've had another rigger open and re-close my reserve pack job and they made no notation on the card or did they re-seal the rig. They degrade too quickly and there are too many people that pencil pack their reserves. If the rubber bands were to allow the free-bag to open pre-maturely and bag strip occured, the reserve could fail from the forces involved. Last I heard from PD, they had no idea how rubber band locking stows would work, especially after the hot, cold, and time tests. This is my opinion. I have heard the arguments against my opinion and my opinion has not changed on Racers (and Reflex's.) If Jumpshack made it so that the reserve closing loop could not be tightened from the outside of the rig without breaking the seal, I would pack Racers. Derek

And if the hat loosens, they will break that thread to tighten it and I don't think that is any protection against accidently over-tightening the closing loop. If manufacturer's TSO'd their gear w/ rubber bands, then riggers would have to pack them with rubber bands. If they were TSO'd with safety stows/bungee, then riggers have to pack them with safety stows/bungee. What other manufacturer has TSO'd their rigs with rubber bands? Reserve PC's loosen for several reasons, including; closing loop stretches (a properly pre-stretched loop shouldn't stretch more than 3 mm), the knot moving on the closing loop, the reserve settling, a change in temperature and/or humidity. Even a properly closed Racer can have it's PC loosen, just like any rig, but with a racer, the PC presents much more of a snag hazard than say a Mirage that loosens a little. Derek

I can, but will not pack either Racers or Reflex's because the closing loop may be tightened from outside the container without disturbing the seal and may be accidentally over-tightened by a well-meaning rigger, the owner, or anyone else. This can: * create a pull above the maximum of 22 pounds * create an impossible pull * bend the ripcord pin. That leaves the rigger with the seal on the rig responsible for the over-tightened closing loop. I also do not like the concept of returning to rubber bands for locking the free-bag closed on the reserve, nor do I like the pop top design that can create a snag hazard. Derek

Your PRIMARY altimeter is your eyes. It doesn't take long to calibrate your eyes to recognize altitude, especially near pull time which is all that really matters. Altimeters fail, eyeballs don't. I have a lot of skydives w/o any type of altimeter. Derek

That is what I charge, $35 for a re-pack/container/reserve inspection, $10 for a main inspection, and $20 for a container wash (taking the rig apart and re-assembling it is time-consuming, especially if the reserve has Rapide links. People pay lots of money for someone to slam together their main without batting an eye. 7 main pack jobs @ $5 per is equal in cost to a reserve pack job......... Derek

Is that the only source? How do they differ from 'normal' rubber bands that you can get from Para Gear? I would really like to see the mil-spec on them and compare the para-gear rubber bands to the mil-spec requirement, see how they stack up. I'm glad I don't have to deal with this issue since I won't pack Racers. I'm just curious as to the differences. Derek

So does anyone have the current mil-spec for rubber bands? For rigger that re-pack Racers and use rubber bands on the free-bag, where do you get the rubber bands? How long can you store them? Derek

What canopy(s) would you recommend it being OK to use Dacron lowers and which canopy(s) would you not recommend Dacron being OK with? What exactly was the Vectran combination application that was tested? Derek

There are a lot of full-time skydiving Instructors out there w/o health insurance. DZO's don't provide, especially since they are only indepedant contractors. When you jump for a living, you have to set aside money for bad weather, etc. If you pay for insurance instead, then if you get hurt, the insurance pays most of your bills, but you can't work and w/o any savings, you are screwed. When I was jumping full time, I saved money and didn't have health insurance. If I had gotten hurt, I would have been screwed, and I was betting that I wouldn't get hurt. Until Instructors are employess and paid well and given benefits, most full-time Instructors will continue to not have health insurance. Anyone ever read 'The Jungle'? As long as there are more Instructors than DZO's need (and USPA helped keep it this way when they lowered the standards to be an AFFI), then the situation isn't going to change. Derek

You can do that with any altimeter. Derek

That is different from a rig made in 1991. A rig made in 85 is now 19 (soon to be 20) years old. It's tired. I haven't heard of U.S. manufacturers putting a life-limit (like a Cypres) on gear before. It would be nice, for me, if they did say 20-years is the max, but I do wonder about the legality of it. Yes, riggers must folllow the manufacturer's instructions for packing the reserve, but they don't have to wear a pink rig while packing if that is in the instructions too. There are limits to 'manufacturer's instructions'. AAD's are different since they must be maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's requirments. Sounds like a good discussion for PIA. Derek

He may not agree, but if he states that opinion, he could lose his rigging business, etc. He may be doing the best he can to change things (I don't know), without risking his income. I have seen a TI told to take a student or be fired. Not a lot of choice there for a full-time TI. I have been in a situation where I woprked for a DZO that was less than honest. I couldn't say, "change or I quit." His respons would have been, "Don't let the hangar door hit you on the ass on your way out." Where would I have been then? As soon as I could find a new job, I quit and left. When it is your job on the line, it isn't so easy to take a stand, you have a lot to lose. Derek

I'm not sure what people expect Mike to do, sut down his business in protest? He has to put food on the the table,just like everyone else. If anyone thinks that skydivers will take a stand and boycott a DZ for whatever reason, I learned a long time ago, they won't. If an ASC staff member stands up and says, "This isn't right, I quit." They'll be replaced before the week is out. If you offer tham an equal or better job at a different DZ, they may leave, but expecting them to quit isn't fair. Same thing apllys to staff at DZ's that accept the Certificates. You can ask them to educate their DZO's, but anything beyond that jepordizes their livelyhood (and attempting to educucate their DZO may jepordize their livelyhood as it is) and you can't expect them to do that. Skyride is the issue. Focus on Skride. Trying to target anyone associated with ASC/Skyride makes your cause lose focus, support, and momemtum. Derek

That is very odd, since about 2 years ago they did some work to Javelin S/N 016 and didn't bat an eye. I would like to see something in writing form Subn Path. Derek

with safety stows, the rubber material doesn't come in contact with the grommets. If the outer material is worn away, then the Safety stow is very old and needs to be replaced. Derek

No, I put the knives in the dishwasher blade first/down. Take care of it, deep cuts like that can get infected easy. Derek

I think that is the root of the issue, a mis-understanding. Absolutely. My time is valuable too, not to mention I have 8 years experience. That is very nice of you, I do the same thing and do it if the batteries quit between re-packs too. I've packed them and a 126 fits great. Mirage recommends a 126 for the M0. I like packing Mirages, easy to get the canopy into the bag and the spring isn't 8-feet long so it easy to control. You may charge whatever you wish. You really should replace the closing loop at every re-pack though. I'll sit and watch TV and make a ton of reserve closing loops, one for every washer I have. Home Depot sells some very cool clear plastic containers that work great for loops. All I have to do it pre-stretch it, mark it, slider the washer up and tie the kots and it's ready to go, no slipping. I keep a list of container sizes and reserve sizes and the closing loop length that works for that combo. I haven't had to open a rig to replace w/ a different length loop in a long time. The manual says they shouldn't stretch more than 3 mm. I find that the knot moving or the pack job settling accounts for the reserve closing loop loosening more than anything else. Chaulk this one up to a mis-understanding. Maybe it was another customer that wanted the cutaway handle. Like I said, people do not like surprises when they cost them money. Now surprises that include diamonds will get you a much different result $24.50 for a reserve pack job? I've done them cheaper for people that are really short of money. If it means if they pay me $35, the can't jump and if they pay me $15 +/-, they can, I'll give'em a break. Would I do that all the time? Probably not. I figure I'm already offering a good service at a great price. I recently offered to assemble a Vector III Cypres and PD-R for a friend for $50, 41% off my normal fee. That includes the hassle of going to the UPS store and shipping it back. I'm sorry this all happened. I don't think it was Lisa's intention to try and give you a bad name and I don't think she has. I understand you desire to defend yourself. Derek

When I left the DZ I was working at full time, I had a choice, keep my prices the same and pass on the savings, or raise them to the DZ's prices and make more money. I chose to pass on the savings. Yes, but she didn't say who the rigger was, and I avoid that by a) not doing work unless the customer knows what I'm doing and how much it'll cost, and b) making sure they know what they are paying for when they pick up the rig. I have a rig here (waiting on a new reserve handle that I had the owner order) that needs a new kill line for the main PC. I haven't replaced it yet because I haven't talked to the owner about it yet. People hate surprises that cost them money. As long as they know about it, theya re OK with it. Surprise them with it, regardless if they needed it done, and they are not happy. Derek

Why did you make and charge her for a new cutaway handle if she didn't ask for one? I replace the reserve (and main) closing loops on every reserve pack job, and it's included in the $35. Then don't do it. Do something you enjoy, you'll be happier. Derek