Hooknswoop

When you said you had heard of the pop top being over tightened, I took that to mean you knew that it has happened. I know it has happened, more than once. You use you reserve on every jump? That's a lot of reserve rides. I'll re-phrase. No one has needed to deploy their reserve on an over-tightened pop top rig resulting in a fatality. Clearly that is what I was saying. And I am not disputing that. My point is pop tops have been over tightened and the reason they haven't failed is the same reason a reserve hasn't been deployed with a molar strap around it. Not very many molar straps have been left on reserves and reserves don't get used very often, making it very unlikely that a reserve will ever be deployed with a molar strap around it. But, if some has a malfunction and their rigger left the molar strap on the reserve, we won't be able to say it has never happened anymore. I suspect if that were to ever happen, molar straps would fall out of fashion. Fact is that someone other than the rigger that packed it may tighten a pop top. They can over-tighten the pop top. This has happened, creating an impossible pull on the reserve. Fortunately no one has ever attempted to deploy their reserve when it was in that condition. Saying it has never happened doesn't mean it never will. I choose not to put my seal on pop tops rigs for that reason. It may be over kill on my part, but I have the luxury of making that choice. I don’t see any reason to take the chance. Derek

Fact is it has occured. You admitted that yourself. Just no one has needed the reserve when it was in that condition. For an analogy: I don't use a molar strap. Why? It is possible for it to be left on the reserve and I don't need it. Has anyone ever gone in because there was a molar strap left on the reserve? Not to my knowledge. But they have been left on reserves before. I didn't need to wait for someone to go in to before deciding to stop using a molar strap. If another rigger uses a molar strap or packs Racers, fine by me. But I won't. Derek

Yep, you are right, I meant 85 mm and 2.55 mm. I keep track of closing loop lengths in mm because it is easier to write than 2 and 3 /32th inches. It is also easier to add a few mm or subtract a few mm than a 1/16th or whatever. Derek

Someone else brought up this and I figured out the method. 1) This method is detect-able if there is an investigation, i.e. evidence of tampering, and 2) I doubt how effective the method is. I won't say why, since that would give it away. So then would a rigger that over tightens a pop top be help responsible if the jumper goes in because they can't pull the reserve? Or are you saying that since it is impossible to know who tightened the rig, that no one would be held responsible? What are the specifics of the 1997 case? I have packed Racers and if you don't have to make a new loop (and according to the manufacturer, you cannot make them, you have to buy them), they are not difficult to pack at all. How hard or easy they are to pack is not why I will not pack them. I agree since otherwise, you won't get your reserve re-packed if you don't find another rigger. Again, the reason I will not pack Racers is not because I can't or find them difficult. The reason I will not pack Racers is because they can be tightened by someone other than the Rigger that packed it without breaking the seal or leaving any other evidence of tampering. The only rigs that you can tighten the reserve closing loop on without breaking the seal or leaving evidence of tampering are pop top rigs. To reiterate, it has nothing to do with being lazy, uneducated, inexperienced, etc. IT has to do with the design. Until that design changes, I won't put my seal on them. If another rigger wishes to pack, them, go for it. I won't think any less of them. The mnore riggers that do pack them, the less often I have to say "no" to packing them, which makes me happy.

"Lines made of Dynema ® will stretch only 1.5-3% under tension." I found this while researching Spectra (Dynema). 3% of 8.5 mm (a common closing loop length measured from knot to the end of the loop), is 2.55 mm. So there's the 3 mm. I think pre-stretching the loops and dressing the knot will keep any stretching down toa minimum. I also wonder how much force is required to stretch a closing loops to the full 3% ? I doubt a reserve PC spring has the force required to stretch it the full 3%. Of course, the stretching conversation is off topic since the concern here is the loop slipping, not stretching. Derek

According to the Cypres Manuak, new loops can be expected to stretch up to 3 mm. I think pre-stretched loops won't stretch. I mean how much can a 2-5 inch Spectra loop stretch? Take a piece of closing loop material and see if it stretches. It doesn't. The 'stretching' is the pack job settling and the knot slipping. Derek

Unbelielvable that a rigger left their packing weight in a reserve. My packing weights are either used during closing (so if I don't have it, I have to find it before I can close the container), or too big to get closed into a container. Big tools and long flags go a long ways to prevent packing a tool into a container. I've seen riggers that sew some velco to their Cypres temp pins and use them as line protectors. Hard to pack them into the container. What are some other good tips for preventing packing tools into rigs? Derek

I designed and tested the mod. Icarus then tested it and were impressed. MEL had nothing to do with it. Derek

I could see this, but you should notice if your main risers are snagged on your helmet before you cutaway. If a line or other part of the main is snagged, it should be VERY obvious. Camera helmets should be snag resistant as much as possible. That is why the only camera helmet I ever jumped is a Sidewinder. No way can anything snag that helmet. Of course, it isn't set up for a still camera. Derek

The Skyhook won't send you off through the air with a reserve PC going who-knows-where. I think it would be almost impossible (anything is possible) to snag your reserve with a Skyhook cutaway. Derek

You can disconnect it just like an RSL and it shouldn't be an issue with a camera, not like an RSL is. Derek

I agree, there is a middle ground. Derek

No Responsibility Culture. It’s not my fault. It was the wind. It was the turbulence. Someone cut me off. I didn’t know. Generally there is someone at fault and rarely does that person take responsibility for being at fault. Accepting that you screwed up is important is not screwing up again. I told Kelli, “If I do something wrong, and you don’t tell me you don’t like it, I’ll do it again.” Had an incident recently where someone took an order, wrote down the number correctly (540), then transposed the number when she told someone else that was taking care of it (450). When the customer came back, scratching their head (literally) and asked how much they received, she looked at her notes and read back 540. At that point, I spoke up (not having been around for the initial order) and said, “wait a second, did they change their order, because you told him 450?” I went and confirmed the order had not been changed and 450 had been delivered. So I told her you just told the customer he got 540 and she immediately, without hesitation or thought said, “No I didn’t.” I picked up the clipboard and showed her the 540 and she just stared at me, pissed off. Then I had to go take care of the short 90. She wouldn’t even consider that she made a mistake and then was very pissed off when she was forced to admit that she did. Ever sit in a courtroom listening to people’s excuses why they were speeding? It is never their fault. I heard one where the lady said there was something wrong with her tire and she thought it might blow up at any time, so she was hurrying to the exit ramp to get home and let her husband take care of it. The judge let her tell her story then said, “Let me get this straight, you thought your tire may blow up, so you drove faster? Do you realize that at the speed your were traveling, a blown tire could have caused you to lose control and if you thought you had a problem with your tire your shouldn’t have been driving it or at the very least, not driving it fast?” People should be held accountable for their actions. In skydiving, jumpers tend to let things slide until there is a problem. Then it is too late. Did you read about San Marco's King Air? Lost an engine and crashed, which is odd enough, but the engine that caught fire was 2,000 hours past a 3,600 hour TBO. The engine had 5,600 hours on it without being overhauled. They just ran it till it quit. Oh ya, they couldn't put the fire out becuase the HALON bottles were empty....... Derek

teason wrote: “And don't say you can just make them” I can just make them. Sorry, but I can and do. So when I run across a worn safety stow I just replace it. “As for lossing your ticket or being sued for a Racer packed to tight, it's called reasonable doubt. We're not talking about leaving a molar strap in a rig! If anyone can tighten a racer, than the rigger cannot be responsible beyond the pullforce recorded the day the rig was pack. If anything, the Racer absolve the rigger of being responsible for the pullforce on the rig.” I don’t trust the FAA that much to realize or understand that much about rigging. I don’t need any special parts for a Javelin, Mirage, Infinity, Vector, etc……. I don’t mind. If the Cypres cut the loop, then the jumper would live and I wouldn’t be worried about manslaughter charges. Once again, the scenario I am worried about is no AAD or the AAD doesn’t fire with an over-tightened pop-top rig. Really? What evidence would there be to show that someone besides the packing rigger tightened the pop-top if a jumper went in after over-tightening it? I don’t feel that recording the pull force or tacking the end of the loop is good enough defense. I am not comfortable that a jumper may take it upon themselves to tighten a pop-top I have packed. Tacking the end of the loop does not prevent someone from tightening it and I don’t think telling the FAA, “I tacked the end of the loop and it’s not tacked anymore, so he must have over-tightened it himself.” will fly. I don’t pack pop-tops not because I am lazy or uneducated or incompetent or lack confidence. I can (and have) packed pop-top rigs, but will not anymore (except for ones w/ non-adjustable closing loops). I’m only one rigger, so in the grand scheme of things I’m not affecting anything by not packing them, there are plenty of riggers that will pack them. Last question and you may have the last word on the subject. Have you ever seen or heard of someone over tightening a Racer after a rigger packed it? Derek

I don't understand how a Racer's closing loop is part of the TSO'd system and therefore a rigger can't make one but on every other rig it isn't part of the TSO'd system and the rigger is expected to make a new one. I’m a bit confused here. Well, we can each open a Racer and decide they both need new closing loops. I'll make one and you order one and see who has a loop ready to go first. If I packed Racers, I would have to order Mil-Spec rubber bands and quick loops from Jump shack and keep them on hand. If I didn't have the bands or loops on hand, I might not be abke to pack a Racer until I ordered more and they arrived. Having to keep special parts on hand for just Racers makes the rig less rigger friendly. I have spare closing loops ready to go for any rig that I pack. I don't have a bunch of containers with Javelin, Mirage, Vector, Infinity, Wings, etc closing loops for each type of rig. They all take the same loop. Just pre-stretch, size and go. And finally, after confirming that I figured out the method you heard of how to tighten almost any rig without breaking the seal does create evidence of tampering so that if the jumper goes in because they over tightened their reserve loop, I can point to the evidence to protect myself. A Racer that has been over tightened leaves no evidence of tampering. Racers and Reflex's are the only 2 (U.S.) rigs that can be tightened by the user easily and could be over tightened creating a hard or impossible pul without any evidence if the jumper goes in. No, as far as anyone knows, it has never happened, but 1) that doesn't mean it won't, 2) Racers have been accidentally over tightened after being packed by yhe ownr or someone else to create impossible pull forces and if they would have had a cutaway they would not have been able to manually activate the reserve, and 3) until Jump Shack makes a change to prevent that scenario, I will not pack Racers. Derek

Good to hear. Sounds like they have the bugs worked out. Let the price war begin. Derek

Oops Good idea. Derek

The PC is covered by flaps, just not completely. He didn't say "completely covered". Pop top rigs close much different that other, more conventional, rigs. Did you get my PM? Derek

I always put one on my PC. It is viewable from a lot of different angles, makes finding a cutaway a lot easier, and during deployment makes it easy to see if I have a PC in tow, etc. I just cracked it, tied it to the base of the PC and packed the PC. Derek

With the temp pin in the closing loop, the pin extends out past the edge of the base of the PC. If the pin is the same length as the base of the PC and the PC is centered over the closing loop, 1/2 of the temp pin minus however much of the pin is through the loop will be sticking out from under the edge of the PC. Someone brought a good point to my attention, could the temp pin have been bent while being put into the closing loop? Derek

The temp pin is larger than the base of the PC. Derek

I use a knee plate and positive tension device and don't tear up my temp pins. Or do you mean the temp pin ended up under a flap, bending it and making removal difficult? Derek

I've packed plenty of Mirages and never bent up a temp pin like that. Not sure how you did that. Derek

I just thought of a way to over-tighten almost any rig without breaking the seal, but it would leave evidence of tampering. I don't know if that is the trick that NightJumper heard, but if it is, 1) It isn't common knowledge and 2) It leaves evidence of tampering whereas overtighting a pop top rig does not. I PM'd NightJumper my idea and we'll see if that is the trick he heard. Derek

No, it doesn't, since I haven't packed anyone's reserve that has expressed that they could tighten the reserve themselves without breaking the seal. If it becomes common practice (tightening rigger's reserve pack jobs), I'll stop rigging. And I won't be the first. There have been owner's/owner's friends, etc that have over tightened Racers that created a total mal, they just haven't had a malfunction while in that condition, yet. You cannot deny that Racers have been over tightened and it is easy for the owner to do, without any tricks. That is absoulutely true. You say that no malufunction has occured and as far as I know that it true, in the air. They have occured when trrying to pull the reserve on the ground. It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen. I choose not to expose myself to that risk. People tightening other thatn pop-top rigs apparently does happen, but 1) I don't know how to do it, and 2) I have never heard until now of that happening, and 3) it requires the knowledge of a special trick not listed in the manual or learn-able by watching your rigger pack your reserve. So I think we can agree that it does happen and there is no defense against it. What we disagree on is whether there will be a fatality because of it and what will happen to the rigger. Derek