faulknerwn

Actually saw one of those during the CRW World record last year. It was an Australian rig, and the guy had it because he thought he could have a better chance of getting the reserve into clean air if in a nasty wrap if he had more control of the pilot chute. It looked like a clean enough system - I wouldn't have a problem jumping that rig. W

That is a good point. Short-lined Lightnings land much worse than ones with longer lines. My first Lightning 113 had 9 foot lines and it landed a lot better than my next one with 8 foot lines. And the demo trim - man - that trim seems to land better than a lot of traditional canopies! It can definitely be harder to compare Lightning landings with the many different styles of trim and line length. What I am curious about though is the fact that everyone is concerned with wing-loading. When Prodigies were a much more popular canopy, the wing-loading was ~1-1. While the Prodigy definitely doesn't turn fast, man,I find it 10x harder to pull out a decent landing on a Prodigy 150 than a Lightning 113. Even now I have a really hard time landing a Prodigy - and the wing-loading is a lot lighter. The Lightning I could flare like all the freefall canopies I'd jumped at the time - the Prodigies just don't. W

Yes and no. A Stilletto is probably 100x more likely to malfunction at opening - even at a MUCH lighter wingloadiing - than a lightning, and I'd actually bet money I could do more radical stuff under the Lightning at 1.3 than a Stilleto at 1.1. I know I can do a LOT more radical maneuvers under my Diablo 88 than I would even consider under an elliptical 120. The difference in recovery is dramatic. You certainly can still kill yourself on it, but I guess the difference is that it responds a lot faster to a jab of the toggles and gets back to "canopy over your head" than any elliptical I've ever jumped. Even much larger 9-cells take longer to recover from radical maneuvers than small 7-cells. Either if you don't try to "save yourself" can kill you. But if I did a radical 180 degree turn at 50 feet and them immediately tried to "save myself" by burying the toggles - I can honestly say I would rather be under a Lightning 113 than a Sabre 150. A spectre 150 would be a different story. I've got ~2000 jumps on 7-cells and ~1500 jumps on 9-cells. In ANY kind of questionable circumstances - any sort of jump where I expect I may pull lower than usual. any sort of jump I might hit turbulence, or be "sun-has-set" or a host of other conditions - I ALWAYS choose any one of the multitude of 7-cells around and avoid the 9-cells like the plague. The 9 cells even in a similar size are noticably more radical than the more docile 7-cells. In any questionable circumstances I go 7... W

70 square feet smaller is a lot greater than CRWdogs normally do. My first canopy off of student status was a Monarch 135, very docile for me at the time, and I currently jump a Lightning 113 for CRW. 22 sq ft difference. And given how PD measures differently than the rest of the industry, most likely even less than 22 square feet difference. The guy I'm referring to, with his weight, I would have put him on a Lightning 176 if I wanted him on a Lightning instead of a Sabre 190 - only 14 square feet of difference. Most people I know who have 2-300 jumps are loading freefall canopies as high or higher than we do CRW. In general, women load their canopies less than the guys, but by the time they get 2-300 jumps, assuming they can afford it, most guys are at a wing-loading similar to or higher than the 1.3ish we use for CRW. I'm not saying its a good thing, but it seems to be true. In fact other than the true newbies, most people I teach CRW to who jump Lightnings with me, tend to upsize, not downsize. Heck I went from jumping a Jonathan 105 to a Lightning 113 when I started doing CRW (or I might even have been on my Jedei 92 by that point.) I do pay attention to manufacturers ratings somewhat, but different manufactures have greatly differing ideas of such things. What experienced on a PD canopy is usually listed as beginner on an Atair canopy. I don't think a Cobalt 120 is that different from a Stilletto 120 to make one a novice canopy and one an expert canopy but that's what the manufacturer's say. At least in my part of the country, it might be different where you are, the people with a couple of hundred jumps who start CRW are generally not downsizing to Lightnings. This usually makes for very humorous efforts to fit a Lightning in their container because their container is built for a similar sized freefall main or even a smaller one. In all honesty, I'm MUCH more concerned about the number of freefallers who get 1.3-1.4 loaded Stillettos and such at 200 jumps. They're a lot more likely to kill themselves on that canopy than they are a Lightning. The 7-cell squares are just not as radical as the ellipticals. W

That is true when you're discussing the same canopy. Last weekend I did CRW with a newbie who was on a 1-1 loaded Sabre. Most people would consider that very reasonable for someone with low jumps. His canopy was very noticably faster than my Lightning 113 loaded at 1.375. Admittedly, it was a 9 cell, not a 7-cell, but is it any safer for him to do a low turn than it would be for me? After that jump, I was thinking about this incident. While if he had been on a similarly wing-loaded Lightning, his descent rate would have been greater, I've got enough jumps with Lightnings to believe that his forward speed would have been less. In general it seems to me that a similarly wing-loaded 7-cell is safer than the 9-cell. I know on my gear, I can get away with considerably lower turns on any of my 7-cells, versus the 9-cells I've owned or jumped. I can level out much faster and pull out of things I couldn't do with a 9-cell. Its not all about wing-loading. The shape of the airfoil makes a big difference, and people can forget about that. A typical 1.3 loaded 7-cell is not the same beast as a typical 1.3 loaded 9-cell. W

Yep. I told ya you'd love it. Now we can just hope for good weather next weekend so we can continue! W

Actually the nearest production canopy would be the Lightning. Its the same airfoil as the reserve, just ZP and with different line trims.. My Lightning actually opens faster than my reserve tho :-)

Normally kill-line pilot chutes behave pretty well in CRW formations of all sorts. Sometimes they'll slide around on the top of the canopy, and I like to grab them and wave them at the people below, but I've never seen them even be close to wanting to entangle. That seems to be much more of an issue with non-collapsible ones. I recommend both Spectres and Triathalons for CRW all the time. They work well. Certainly non-cascaded lines make it easier. For serious CRW, I'd want dacron lines, but I do CRW with microlined canopies all the time and its really not a big deal. W

Most drop zones like this have what we call a "line of death". Usually its a road or some other landmark near the dz. Basically, the CRWdogs need to stay on the north (east/west/south) side of this landmark until 2000 feet or left, while the pilots make sure that they only drop freefallers on the opposite side. Its important for the CRWdogs to pay attention and not cross this too soon. W

I'm not sure about the others, but during my last spinning mal, my pro-track registered my descent at 45 mph.... (It never even registered my first deployment!) W

The problem is that sometimes you don't hear your audible. A failed visual is pretty easy to recognize, a failed audible much harder. I mean - it doesn't even mean mechanical failure - I've been preoccupied on dives and never noticed my audible going off, or maybe my hearing wasn't that good or who knows what. I hear my audble _most_ of the time but certainly not always. And in reality I think the failure hasn't been with the device on most of those. W

I have somewhere safe to land by 1500 feet. I'll occasionally head closer to the dz from there, but I always have an out and somewhere I am 100% sure I can get to at that altitude. W

Actually this happened to me on my last cutaway. In previous cases, I'd never noticed one riser releasing before the other on any of my cutaways. In this particular cutaway, I ended up using both hand to chop because the risers were twisted up nicely and I was spinning rapidly on my back. I yanked, and my right riser released and I was hanging by my left, and another quick yank got me free. But in that scenerio - I actually liked it! Normally in spinning mals you go spinning off out of control on your back. If you're low, you just gotta dump your reserve like that. In this case, when one riser released first I was now under a streamer going straight down, and releasing the second had me instantly back belly to earth. I make no pretenses that this would always happen, but I didn't mind going back into freefall stable rather than spinning out of control on my back. W

Wow. I'm glad you two are alive but geez..... I've gotta ask - how many CRW jumps on real CRW canopies do you have? I'm not talking about throwing a 2-stack together after freefall, but true actual CRW jumps? From the video, it looks like you weren't controlling your canopy when you snagged her. I mean - if I'm catching someone - doesn't matter the speeds or what type of canopy - if I catch with one line I'm always weight-shifting in my harness to keep myself flying straight as well as being extremely aware on the toggles. From the video, it looked like you were flying on the verge of a stall anyway, and when you grabbed her you didn't weight-shift and with a radical canopy like what you were jumping, its instantly bad. That's why I was wondering how many real CRW jumps on real CRW canopies you have. That's one of the first things I teach my students is always keep your canopy flying straight when accepting a dock - that awareness of what your canopy is doing before it does it is important for any CRW pilot - even more so for this kind of CRW. But that needs to become so ingrained in you up high on docile canopies. Making that kind of mistake on radical ones down low will likely kill you. Yowsa. I'm glad you're still alive. Wen

As Bill booth's law states - skydivers will adjust what they do to keep a constant level of safety. Numerous studies show that drivers take more risks if they're in a car with safety features like airbags and ABS. As skydiving fatalities from no-pulls went down, skydivers bought tiny canopies so they can kill themselves that way. I believe everyone should be able to jump without an altimeter - I've had them go weird in freefall or digital ones turn off on multiple occasions. If you're afraid to jump without one in controlled conditions, how will you handle it in uncontrolled conditions? Because altimeters do screw up. Its much better to learn to do these things in controlled conditions. I've lent mine to others on numerous occasions because I'm comfortable jumping without one where they weren't. Years ago, back when I had ~200 jumps or so, I thought like many of the new jumpers on here do. I thought Cypreses were great and everyone should jump with one. I always did, and never thought I was depending on it. Then I quit freefall for a while and concentrated on CRW, and when I came back to freefall (and since i had sold my Cypres when I quit freefall), I found myself saying No to loads I used to would have said yes to. And that's what's struck me - I didn't realize it at the time but I was going on loads that I wouldn't have otherwise because I had a Cypres. Since I was now without one, I discovered myself saying no. The smart thing to do is to say no, rather than get on loads where you might need a Cypres. But in my case, I was completely unaware that that was even in my thought process. Which is why I tell people, if you won't do a jump without a Cypres on your back, you should think long and hard about whether you should do it with one. Because on multiple occasions, all the Cypres has done is ensure a good-looking corpse for the funeral - getting knocked out in numerous cases breaks your neck or causes other deadly injuries. And if you're not jumping a big reserve - big enough to land you going downwind unconscious out of control, don't bet on the Cypres to save your life. I see a lot of big guys who have Cypreses but 120 sq ft reserves. I just don't get it. I'm not saying by any stretch of the imagination don't have one. I think they're good things and they are very good for people to jump with. But I think a lot of people out there are unconsciously choosing to take greater risks - just like the studies have shown in cars - people who have ABS and airbags and such - take more risks. Don't take more risks just because you have a safety device. If you want to be safer, don't take any risks with one than you would without one. Otherwise you're at best breaking even, maybe even decreasing your odds Use a Cypres, but don't make a skydive which you wouldn't make without it. I had no idea I was doing it until I jumped without one.

My favorite low pass was the jet at Quincy one year. It wasn't the lowest I've ever seen, but seeing a 727 jet fly quite low over all the tents and everything else was spectacular! W

Dang. My drop zone is in Salado - not Salida! That's where I've been going wrong! W

When you have a variety of mixed wing-loadings, you definitely have to be much more disciplined. Generally if I'm heavier than everyone else, I stay way out in front of the formation, and ride full brakes. That way they don't outrun when I'm in brakes and they're not. If I head straight back to the formation I'm hosed. [reply[ So what happens if you try to segregate wingloadings? You get the CRW experts flying their canopies at 2.0, and the newbies flying at 1.0, and you lose a lot of learning and safety from not having experts instructing the less experienced people. Yes and no. The majority of Lightning owners in the US at least jump them in the range of ~1.3-1.4. Its unusual to jump dramatically higher than that, and the people that do usually have a more typically sized canopy to jump when they do bigger formations. A 2.0 wing-loading would be EXTREMELY unusual over here. As far as turn dynamics is concerned, you definitely need to think about it. If I'm approaching the formation and high, I'll do a more dramatic toggle turn usually. Sometimes if I'm right around my slot, I'll do a half-braked turn. If I am low, I'll do a full-braked turn so I can gain altitude on the formation when I turn. Most imporantly watch where you are going! W

Beautiful pics, wish I was there. W

Quote If working on larger formations (I'm talking about say, 12-ways) what do you feel that the +/- area that wing loadings should remain within is? If someone were loading a 143 at ~1:1, and were wearing weights to bring their loading to ~1.2, would this satisfy compatability issues? [/reply[ That would most likely work. In our big ways, we often have different weightings in different parts of the formation. The center line is often heavier loaded to keep it flying forward, the pilot is often slightly lighter to keep the formation floaty. Certainly a dive could be engineered where 1.2-1.3 wing loadings would work. Especially on smaller-sized dives it shouldn't be an issue. The 92 world record had a wide variety of canopies in it - it was in the upper 30's if I remember correctly. It can be done. I'm not sure of the experience level of the camp in Florida. Of the people that I know who were there, all had been doing CRW at several other camps at least, and I would have qualified them as not truly "beginner." I don't know if there were any true beginners there, but of the 4 relative newbies that I knew there, all had been to 3-4 of these camps before. All had been jumping Lightnings for at least a while before. My opinion is certainly that you learn more on smaller formations. I learned most of my CRW doing 2 ways - mainly with newbies on a wide variety of canopies which taught me how to fly my canopies in all sorts of different speeds and such. Certainly 2 and 4 way sequential is a great learning tool. At this camp I know they did multiple point 4-ways with 3 relative novices and a coach. If it was a true beginner's camp, we rarely go beyond an 8-way. At this last camp there were more people there who were ready to be challenged with something bigger.

Definitely opening upwind is the best case. But barring that, I'll still always do front risers. I can think of 2 major things at CRW camps which show the benefit of front risers - certainly on our Lightnings which are generally a flatter trim I'd say than a lot of your canopies. The first was a couple of years ago in Sebastian. There was a really bad spot, and they ended up downwind over the riser. One person made it to shore, and that person rode front-risers the entire way. Everyone who did it, landed in the brink or on a small island. The second was a few months after that. We had been doing double-16-ways (or maybe 25 ways) and we were a long way out over the swamp. 5-6 of us made it to the edge of the airport. Every one of used our front risers to get there. Most of the other people didn't, and they all landed in the swamp. In fact, I remember one CRWdog who was in the brink on the first jump, trying out front risers after watching the one guy make it back to shore, and he was one of the 5 of us who made it to the airport. Right. That is the difference. When I want to sink, I use a LOT of front risers. When I want to make forward distance, I use just a little front-risers. Its like rear-risers - optimal glide is usually just an inch or less of rear risers - if you do more than that you're edging on a stall usually (depends on the canopy) and you have less lift than if you weren't using them at all. With both front and rear risers you can use the "moving spot" to try and determine what is your optimal angle to get you back the farthest.

Most likely you couldn't go that radically different. You'd need to keep the formations a smaller size if you're going to mix wing-loadings.

Umm, Brian? Front risers ALWAYS give me forward speed even before I let loose of them. That's why we use them so much in CRW? If I have hosed myself and gotten behind the formation, I'll ALWAYS use front risers to catch back up. Works like a champ. Admittedly - if you do too much front risers you sink more than you fly forward, but if you add a little it definitely gives you forward speed. I'm guessing that it depends on the initial trim of the canopy - if its a flatter trim front risers will help you gain that faster angle but if its already really steep, it may go past the "ideal" point.

Most of my teaching of newbies is on their original canopies. You can do a lot of good CRW with Triathalons and Spectres, and until you get to larger formations, you can mix wing-loadings without too much trouble. I remember a diamond we built once where the only 2 experienced people flew a Lightning 113 and 126, as wings under a F111 PD 190, with a Prodigy 200 docking 4th and a Maverone I believe stinging the tail. It flew fine. Once you get to doing bigger ways, canopy size and wing-loading are more important, but I have done a lot of CRW with my 113 with everything from 290 square foot canopies to smaller ones. I've been teaching CRW recently to one girl who's on a Spectre 150 yet weighs less than me. Yes, once you get them to the point they're more comfortable with canopy control, you can consider downsizing them slowly, but CRW Lightnings are not the only safe canopy to teach CRW on. As far as type of canopy - I could get away with a lot of stuff on my Lightning 113 than I could on a Stilletto 120. I could do lower toggle turns and get that canopy back above my head MUCH faster than a Stilletto. If I had to land in a tight spot, I'd much rather be on my Lightning than a faster 9-cell. I'd rather have a newbie be on the slower 7-cell than the faster 9 cell when landing off. The 2 canopies most recently I jumped recently to compare would be a Diablo 88 and a Cobalt 85. Night and day difference - I can shut down the Diablo when I need to with a much shorter runway. I can do lower turns, be more radical, and get away with it. I have to be much more precise on the Cobalt. If I had a choice safety-wise for younger jumpers say (and this being the only consideration - not openings etc), I'd much rather see them on a Spectre than a Sabre 2 of the same size. The Spectre allows one to get away with more mistakes. I've got ~1500 jumps on Lightnings, lcose to 800 or so on other 7-cells (mainly a Diablo 88 and a Triathalon 99), and ~1000 on ellipticals varying in size between 75-105 sq ft. As a general all-purpose canopy, I'd rather see someone with 20 jumps on the _modern_ 7-cell any day of the week.

I love intentional cutaways. I always deploy the main on my belly attached to my tert rings first though so that when I go back into freefall I have a normal container. I always cutaway a lot higher than that though. Too many things could possibly go wrong for me to want to be possibly chopping that low - even with me having tert rings instead of your 2-minis on one large ring. In fact, I did 2 jumps on Sunday with a friend who nearly died after he tried to chop on a tertiary rig at 3500 feet, one side couldn't release, spun into the ground because he couldn't get his reserve to inflate which he ended up having to dump into the main. I always do my intentional cutaways quite high :-) And often, we're doing CRW so someone else can just carry the canopy down for me... W