james1010

" So you're telling me that all of you would enjoy that even if you WEREN'T involved????? " HELL YEAH!!

Affirmative, Captain.

" Don't they all do the girl on girl thing from time to time, or is that only in my dreams? " Do you reckon women secretly dream of dude on dude? Women, do you?

" Where the hell is Jesus anyway ? he's over 2 years late by my watch." Uh . . the Bible states, that is to say, Jesus himself said that no man will know the day nor the hour that He would return. . . . so when did you recieve this divine revelation that He would be here in 2000? James

Great video . . like the background music. You two look so cool together. . still trying to get my wife up there, any secrets? James

Fair enough, Justin. We should close this out for now and move on to simpler things, like . . . oh, I don't know . . skydiving, maybe. Thanks for the cool debate, maybe we can take this up again in the future. Blue Skies!! James

" God could have given man freewill, but still put his words out clearly with no room for interpretation and given man a choice between following them and not. What would be His reason for requiring interpretation? " God doesn't require interpretation, He requires Faith. The problem is man trying to interpret something that interprets itself. God didn't leave a puzzle that only scholars and theologians could figure out. He knew exactly what He wanted to say and that's what He had written. The gospel message which is the undercurrent from Genesis to Revelation is so simple that with our puffed up intellectual minds, we miss it. We have to analyze it and break it down, look at it from this perspective and then from this other perspective, when in reality all we have to do is simply read it and study it within itself and nothing else. But, that would be to easy.

Kevin, There is a problem here . . I'm pointing out what I believe to be true, that is, the Bible. You're implying that it is full of errors, and there are some supposed discrepencies, but they resolve themselves when carefully studied and forced back into thier original context from whence they were pulled. My best arguments will not be good enough for you, and certainly yours will not for me. The problem is this: CO1 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. This is where I'll draw an abundance of critisism, but so be it. The Bible is Gods word to Gods people. Except a person has been born again, he will never fully understand the Bible. In fact, he will most likely do whatever he can to disprove it to justify his WILLING unbelief, because for him to accept it certainly would place him into a state of accountability before God, and that goes against his grain. A man must be born again to begin to fully understand the Bible. I believe the Word of God is w/out error, if He can't preserve His own word then He's not God. In any case, please see the following web page: http://www.icr.org/bible/godsplan.htm With this installment, I will reluctantly bow out . . . on to other threads. Any other questions, drop me an e-mail. James

On the subjest of infallible proofs, let me show you one, copied and pasted for your conveinence, ofcourse. Please try and read all of it, THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST The first evidence the disciples had for the resurrection was that of the empty tomb, and this evidence is still unanswerable. As Peter and John entered the tomb, they saw an amazing thing. The heavy wrappings of linen clothes which Joseph and Nicodemus had wound around the body of Jesus (John 19:39,40) were still there, just as they had been, but the body had vanished out of them and the grave clothes had, as it were, collapsed inward on themselves. No wonder the record says that when John entered the tomb, "he saw and believed!' (John 20:8). His doubts and fears immediately gave way to an amazed faith; the collapsed grave clothes yielded no possible interpretation except that the physical body of the crucified Christ had returned to life, in such a remarkable form that it could simply pass through the linen wrappings and enter henceforth into the power of an endless life! Peter and John then rushed back to John's home, probably to tell Mary, the mother of Jesus, the tremendous news (note John 19:27; 20:10) and, shortly after, the women who had first come to the tomb entered it and also saw the tomb was empty (Luke 24:3). The fact that the tomb was empty shows clearly that the resurrection of Christ was a bodily resurrection, nota spiritual resurrection. The latter idea is a self-contradiction, in fact, because the spirit does not die and therefore cannot be "resurrected." Indeed, resurrection takes place when the spirit returns to the body from which it has departed. So powerful is the testimony of the empty tomb that the enemies of Christ have resorted to many strange and wonderful devices to try to explain it away. The first such attempt was the lie that the disciples had stolen the body (Matthew 28:11-15). Such a thing was utterly out of the question, of course. The disciples were hiding in fear of their lives and nothing could have been further from their thoughts than this. Furthermore, the tomb had been sealed, a great stone rolled in front of it, and a watch of Roman soldiers set to guard it (Matthew 27:62-66). Others, equally desperate for an answer, have suggested that Jesus did not actually die on the cross, but only fainted from weakness. He was buried in the mistaken belief that He was dead, and when He came back to consciousness in the tomb, He arose and left it. How, in His weakened condition He had managed to disengage Himself from the great weight of wrappings and ointments, then break the Roman seal, roll away the giant stone at the entrance, overpower the Roman soldiers, and then search out the disciples, is apparently of little concern to the proponents of this odd theory. Nor do they explain how the sight of such a pitiful Jesus, beaten almost beyond recognition and weak past endurance by loss of blood on the cross, could have excited such a complete transformation in the cowering disciples. He must soon, or at least eventually, die anyhow, and thereafter any preaching of a resurrection could be nothing but fraud and hypocrisy. Beside all this, there is no doubt that He really did die on the cross. Pilate was given assurance of this by the centurion (Mark 15:43-45). The savage spear thrust into His side by the soldier (John 19:34) made certain of His death, "and forthwith came there out blood and water," evidencing complete collapse of the heart cavity. Some have thought that Mary Magdalene, then Peter and John, then the other women, all went to the wrong tomb. Such a stupid mistake was not very likely, however, especially since there was no other tomb there! This was a garden, owned by Joseph of Arimathea (Matthew 27:60; John 19:41), and no one else had been buried there. Besides, if the body were still in any tomb whatever, it could easily have been produced by the Roman or Jewish authorities. A few weeks later, when multitudes were accepting Christ because of the preaching of the resurrection, these same authorities did everything they could to stop the spread of the new Christian faith, and they utterly failed. If they had simply produced the body of Jesus, on the other hand, the entire movement would have collapsed over night. But this was the one thing they could not do! That body, raised from the grave, had ascended up to heaven. THE APPEARANCES OF CHRIST Not only was the tomb empty, but the disciples actually saw their resurrected Lord, on at least ten separate occasions after He left the tomb. These appearances were probably in the following order: 1. To Mary Magdalene (John 20:11-18; Mark 16:9) 2. To the other women (Matthew 28:8-10) 3. To Peter (Luke 24:34; I Corinthians 15:5) 4. To the two on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35; Mark 16:12) 5. To ten of the disciples (Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-29) 6. To all eleven disciples, eight days later (John 20:24-29) 7. To seven disciples by the Sea of Tiberias (John 21:1-23) 8. To five hundred followers (I Corinthians 15:6) 9. To James (I Corinthians 15:7) 10. To the eleven, at the ascension (Acts 1:3-12) There were probably many other times He appeared to one or more of His disciples. Luke says: "He shewed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days" (Acts 1:3). He was apparently seen by Stephen (Acts 7:56). Finally, of course, He was seen by Paul (Acts 9:38; I Corinthians 15:8) and once again by John (Revelation 1:12-18). Now, of course, skeptics have tried to avoid the testimony of these numerous post-resurrection appearances of Christ by pointing out various contradictions in the six accounts which list them (Matthew 28:8-20; Mark 16:9-20; Luke 24:13-51; John 20:11-21, 14; Acts 1:1-11; I Corinthians 15:5-8), or else by charging the writers with fabricating the stories themselves. Of course, the mere fact that there do appear on the surface to be a number of superficial discrepancies and omissions in the account is clear proof that the writers were not engaged in some kind of collusion. If they were making up the tales, each one evidently was doing so independently of all others. This in itself would be quite a remarkable state of affairs, especially since these discrepancies all vanish when they are compared under close examination. It is a well known rule of evidence that the testimonies of several different witnesses, each reporting from his own particular vantage point, provide the strongest possible evidence on matters of fact when the testimonies contain superficial contradictions which resolve themselves upon close and careful examination. This is exactly the situation with the various witnesses to the resurrection. The only other possible device for explaining away the post-resurrection appearances is to assume that they were all merely hallucinations, or visions, perhaps induced by drugs or hypnosis or hysteria. Such an absurd hypothesis is surely its own refutation. Such hallucinations, if this is what they were, are quite unique in human history and warrant the most careful psycho logic scrutiny. They were experienced by a large number of different individuals, all seeing the same vision, but in different groups, at different times, both indoors and outdoors, on a hilltop, along a roadway, by a lake-shore, and other places. Furthermore, they were not looking for Jesus at all. Several times they didn't recognize Him at first, and at least once actually believed it was a ghost until He convinced them otherwise. He invited them to touch Him and they recognized the wounds in His hands (John 20:27; Luke 24:39). They watched Him eat with them (Luke 24:41-43). On one occasion, over five hundred different people saw Him at one time (I Corinthians 15:6), most of whom were still living at the time when that evidence was being used. The vision theory is thus quite impossible and therefore the numerous appearances of Christ must be regarded as absolutely historical and genuine. This fact, combined with the evidence of the empty tomb, renders the resurrection as certain as any fact of history could possibly be. THE WITNESS OF THE APOSTLES Now it is completely impossible that the apostles could have preached and written as they did unless they were absolutely sincere and under deep conviction of the truth of what they preached. They had instantaneously changed from craven runaways to bold Spirit-filled proclaimers of Christ and the resurrection. Such preaching cost them the loss of their possessions, intense persecution, and finally the loss of their lives, but they kept preaching as long as strength permitted. Multitudes who believed what they were preaching suffered the same persecutions. If they were faking all this, if somewhere they had the body of Jesus hidden away, or if He were still barely alive in a sickbed somewhere, or if they were involved in some kind of plot, or if they were not really sure whether they had seen Him or some vision,—is it conceivable that all of them (as well as their hosts of converts) would have continued this make-believe right up to the point of death itself? It would seem there must be some things in this world which no one in his right mind could possibly believe, and this should be one of them! No wonder then, in view of the combined evidences of the empty tomb, the numerous appearances, the change in the disciples, and the authenticity of the records, not to mention the testimony of two thousand years of Christian history, that such a man as Thomas Arnold, formerly Professor of History at Rugby and Oxford, one of the world's great historians, could say: "I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better, fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died, and rose again from the dead." (1) In like manner, Simon Greenleaf, one of the most skilled legal minds ever produced in this nation, top authority on the question of what constitutes sound evidence, developer of the Harvard Law School, after a thorough evaluation of the four Gospel accounts from the point of view of their validity as objective testimonial evidence, concluded: "It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact" (2) It is no exaggeration, therefore, to maintain that the bodily resurrection of Christ is as certain as any fact of history can ever be. If there is anything at all in which we can believe with absolute confidence, it is the fact that Jesus Christ died, was buried, then conquered death and is now alive! Christianity hinges on this fact, I think it's great that God saw fit to allow so many unanswerable evidences. James

"no really, go ahead and stay at the dz both friday and saturday nights, jump your butt off, and have a great time at the party!" hmmm . . wonder why she'd say that??!!

I really don't care for the word religion much, but I will agree that FAITH doesn't require proof. The fact that there are infallible proofs in my opinion should direct those of us who believe them to put them out there for those who do not, however, that doesn't at all imply doubt . . in fact it's quite the contrary. My belief in God and the Bible is such that I believe it needs to be shared and I for one don't mind sharing it. If after all what I believe is in fact true as I believe it is then it follows that there should be evidences, and there are. One of the biggest for me personally is the change in peoples lives that I've witnessed, who have accepted Christ as Lord. This statement will no doubt draw critisism, but Christianity in general and Biblical literalists in particular have drawn some of the worst critisism and for that matter persecution of the past 2000 some odd years since Jesus walked this planet. That in and of itself for me is still further proof . . note these words from Jesus: LUK 21:17 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake". Also: JOH 15:18 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you". In any case, I can see where you would introduce doubt, but for myself that's not the case at all. James

"Dreams" - Van Hagar, "Ride the Wind" - Poison, and ofcourse "Long way down" - Goo Goo Dolls

Quade, I stopped by work to check this thread (obsessed??) check out the following website, lotta good articles that parallel this debate. It is a Christ-centered website, however, the credentials of the writers are purely scientific . . . they're not a bunch of Bible scholars. Anyway, let me know what you think . . anybody for that matter. http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-idx.htm Blue Skies, James

" Just tied your own argument in a knot with that comment...." Really, how so? I was just stating that not all of the whys and wherefores of God's attributes are revealed. Faith is the key element throughout the entire Bible as it deals with those things that are unseen. It is defined ' the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.' Hebrews 11:1 then the chapter goes on as a kind of Hall of Fame of Faith . . wonderful passage, you should take a look at it. james

Thanks, that'll make things easier. BTW, 'Newbie' has left the building. James

" -- if God created the universe, then where was He before that? Unrevealed . . . our finite minds aren't capable of accepting the existence of an Infinite God, that is where Faith enters the show. I personally believe in His infinity, but I have to accept that by faith. Some will and some will not. James

" BTW, it is only in the interest of bandwidth, I've chosen to mostly use URLs instead of coping and pasting entire passages as so many others have done. " How does one do that? James

Justin, Thanks for good debate, unfortunately I have to duck out for the weekend (no computer at home). Have a killer weekend. BTW, how many posts before that pesky "Newbie" goes away? James

gotcha . . the word 'creation' threw me off . .sorry

Justin Forgive my use of plurality, didn't mean to suggest that it involved you so much as those others out there who believe the Bible. Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone or insist you believe anything. Just enjoying a good debate. James

" Quade, you do realize that the scientific argument for creation rests on the fact that the world was created from nothing by mere chance don't you? " Not mere chance . . . but Divine (not just intelligent) Design. James

" But trying to infer that the writers of the Bible understood the first and second laws of thermodynamics " Not the writers, Joe, the Author.

"God was there when it happened." Really? How do you know?" How do you know He wasn't? Herein is the conundrum. James

" They are allegorical guides to personal morality. " Joe, The Bible serves many historians and archaeologists as an uncontradictory guide to acient times . . . hardly an allegory!! James

Part two: Present processes are those of maintenance or providence. Not only is nothing being created but also nothing is being destroyed. He is "upholding all things by the Word of his power." By the same omnipotent Word who created all things, "the heaven and the earth which are now, are kept in store" (II Peter 3:7). But we have already noted another very significant characteristic of all such present processes. It is true that nothing is being destroyed, but it is also strangely true that everything tends to become less useful. This is the second law of thermodynamics, the law of entropy increase, which states that the natural tendency is toward increasing disorder and randomization. Energy tends to become less available for useful work, and the process can only be maintained by a continual influx of fresh energy from outside the system itself. Everything tends to grow old, to wear out, or to run down. There is a universal tendency toward decay and death. And who cannot help but sense that this state of affairs, universal and inexorable though it seems to be, is somehow undesirable and abnormal in a universe created by a Holy and Omnipotent Creator? But this is all explained and long anticipated in Scripture, which attributes it to the entrance of sin into the world. At the end of the creation and making of all things, the Bible says that "God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good" (Genesis 1:31; italics added). There was no disorder, no lack of harmony, no decay and, above all, no death in the world as originally made by God. For the Bible believing scientist, this can only mean that any evidence he finds in the present order of things, or in the records of the past, that indicates disorder and struggle, suffering, decay, and death, must necessarily be understood as entering the world after (not before or during) the six days of creation. Specifically the Bible tells us that this happened as a result of the sin of the first man, Adam, who had been designated by God as master of the earth and everything in it. When he sinned, God pronounced a curse on both Adam and his dominion. "Cursed is the earth for thy sake" (Genesis 3:17). And from that day on, as the Scripture says: "The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" (Romans 8:22). The whole world, both the heavens and the earth, and all that in them is, are "waxing old, as a garment" (Hebrews 1:11). James