aguila

There is an official statement supporting your arguments: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:fKbgg5fOqNIJ:https://www.uspa.org/safety/safetyday/SafetyDayGuidelines2006.pdf+tandem+exit+o but this was a real case and you might find yourself in such situation. That is the reason for this poll (I just found the document yesterday) Yeah, that's what I thought... I know others have made a strong argument for almost the opposite order... But I wonder what the safest method is? You know the answer. For the same scenario remove the tandem and put a 3-way opening at 3K ft instead. How long would you wait to jump? Easy or hard selection? Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

There is an official statement supporting your arguments: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:fKbgg5fOqNIJ:https://www.uspa.org/safety/safetyday/SafetyDayGuidelines2006.pdf+tandem+exit+o but this was a real case and you might find yourself in such situation. That is the reason for this poll (I just found the document yesterday) Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

Sure! Just ask me and I will tell you all I know but how much I waited

I was also so busy replying attacks that forgot posting the scenario. LOL Anyway, nobody asked but Dough a few hours ago and I already posted the conditions. Suggestions are welcome!

I did not say that at all. I just prove experienced people pushed by circumstances can do something wrong. Circumstances: Most people here were so busy trying to blame me so that they missed the environment factors for this incident (win, speed, etc.) Just one less experienced skydiver, DougH ,asked for the factors this afternoon. If the most experienced people here, with an easy environment: 0 ft AGL, no wind, safe grounded, etc) failed to take in account such important factors as wind speed, direction, altitude etc, imagine what could happen when less experienced people skydive Again: The USPA document states: 1. A USPA Instructor should teach this section. 2. Freefall safety is everyone’’s responsibility. 3. Exit order should be based on the type and size of groups, when the aircraft is flown into the wind for jump run. a. Slower falling groups first, large to small b. Faster falling groups next, large to small c. Freefall students d. Tandem students e. Wingsuit fliers (or they may exit first in some situations) and canopy pilots who are pulling at altitudes of 5,000 feet and above whole document here: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:fKbgg5fOqNIJ:https://www.uspa.org/safety/safetyday/SafetyDayGuidelines2006.pdf+tandem+exit+o If you think the USPA and me are wrong you should tell them your arguments (you already have told them to me but not convinced at all) because if you are right and we are wrong, you could avoid fatalities no matter how many personal attacks you receive for daring to contradict them. I am aware is not easy to contradict more experienced skydivers ( you bet ) but some times it is necessary. While this was not the original topic of this thread, here are the factors: plane: Cessna 208 Skydivers: 17 Winds: no wind said the pilots (weird? Maybe but they are the pilots) Jump run altitude: 12K AGL TM opening altitude 5K My planed opening altitude: 3.5K ft I did not track until saw the TM right below me I have learned much with your help and enjoyed this thread a lot, specially the USPA document (sorry, I cannot lie ) Thank you so much! Blue Skies! PS. Good luck with your resolution. It would be nice

Thanks! U2 Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

Sorry! I was sure I had already posted it: plane speed: 80 knots winds: 0.0 winds according to the pilots PS. As far as I remember you are the first asking it

I claim Tandems must exit as the USPA states for the safety sake. Please read my very first question. It seems nobody here is experienced enough to publicly answer my question. Till then, we should better guide by the USPA recommendations Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

How long should I have waited? I would appreciate your suggestions Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

USPA statement: D. FREEFALL SAFETY 1. A USPA Instructor should teach this section. 2. Freefall safety is everyone’s responsibility. 3. Exit order should be based on the type and size of groups, when the aircraft is flown into the wind for jump run. a. Slower falling groups first, large to small b. Faster falling groups next, large to small c. Freefall students d. Tandem students e. Wingsuit fliers (or they may exit first in some situations) and canopy pilots who are pulling at altitudes of 5,000 feet and above whole document here: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:fKbgg5fOqNIJ:https://www.uspa.org/safety/safetyday/SafetyDayGuidelines2006.pdf+tandem+exit+order+safety+USPA&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1 Hope it helps

You're confusing yourself, I think. Exit order does NOT equal separation. If you had a long enough jump run, you could alternate tandems and freeflyers, if you wanted to - it's the DELAY BETWEEN EXITS that gives you the separation, everything else being equal. Exit order is usually set up to compliment exit DELAY so as to provide the most HORIZONTAL separation between adjacent groups. Is not that simple: If a tandem jumps first and open at 5k and you follow them and open at 3k, you will reach the same altitude (be sure you will) at a given moment, with speed differences bigger than 100 Mp/h To avoid they run into each other you must get enough separation; as it is a 3-D environment you need to consider: 1- Horizontal separation (seconds) 2- Vertical separation (exit order for this case) If you want to use just horizontal separation the jump run would last longer and a second pass might be needed. As we are human beings and eager to jump chances are we do not do it and get injured or die. If you add vertical separation by making the TM jumping the last your are really using vertical and horizontal separation, a lot safer and without making the jump run longer. You all have helped me get an organize arguments in such a way that I am sure TM will not exit first at our DZ with the advantages of more safety and more flights because each jump run will last shorter. There is at least one more reason why the TMs must jump behind: The TM student with not parachute would be well away of the door which is removed quite often. Honestly thank you mainly to the ones that disagree with arguments! PS. I know some people here are sure I am wrong. No problem as long are they are no TMs jumping right before me

The tandems aren't the saftey issue, you are. sure So you're PROUD of the fact that YOU created a safety issue by not waiting long enough??? Whatever you say Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

You are right! Thank you! I would love to see all those pretty TM student girls doing RW with us Good jump! Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

The tandems aren't the saftey issue, you are. sure Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

You mean you can tell anything you want without having any idea of what you are talking about? Sure.. you can Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

Nicholas, nobody knew the scenario, wind, how long I waited, etc, so they could not tell if I did it wrong or right, got scared (or very scared ,) etc Fortunately it did not happen the way you say. Briefly: I was bound to jump after a tandem and a friend followed me filming. Winds: 0 said the pilots. I posted a Poll where you can see the full scenario. When I was hanging out of the door saw a big cloud coming straight to us. I should not wait much to avoid it so that I could keep an eye on the tandem but waited the longest I could considering the conditions. I did some maneuvers (no tracking) for my friend to film. Unfortunately we could not avoid the cloud. I was very worried about the tandem and tried to spot it. Got it! As soon as I was about to leave the cloud - 4000 ft, I spotted the tandem with its canopy open right below me. I cannot tell exactly how far, maybe 450 ft. I just tracked as fast as possible, saw a fast shadow on my right side, lost some balance, recovered, etc. and landed. Did I get scared and screwed it up? Fortunately not. Mistake? SURE! Tandems must not jump first. They open a lot higher than the jumpers following them AND the TM student, WITH NO PARACHUTE, is very close to door - I should call it hole because many people remove the plane's door. Just imagine an unexpected move of the plane at 9000 ft and the student falls. Then? You are right: minds are like parachutes, they work better when they are open . . . but you should wear and use them Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

You could not have described it better! I knew I had forgotten something when posting to this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2621172;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; BTW, we usually keep the door removed. So, the tandem student is very close to the door (hole) with no parachute Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

Thank you! Your point is valid and your vote is welcome! I could not modify the jumps limit and apologize for the inconvenience. In regard to the Cessna 208 passenger limit it depends on several factors. It is interesting and people should have it mind. Some are: 1- Passengers' weight 2- Luggage and extra weight 3- Are seats and door removed? 4- taking off altitude 5- taking off temperature 6- taking off humidity 7- Pilots' preferences 8- Are the tanks full loaded? 9- Winds 10- Skydivers' stubbornness I forgot to mention some Caravans have extra space for luggage under the floor. That means extra weight and less passengers Blue skies! Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

Hello all. This is for all skydivers with more than 30 Free fall jumps. Imagine your first visit to this DZ and this would be your second jump there. Scenario: Drop zone: small. Please see the included picture. The landing area is within the yellow line Airplane: Cessna 208 Grand Caravan Jumpers: 17 Winds: no wind said the pilots (do not ask me for wind direction ) Altitude: 13.500 ft AGL Temperature: 98 F DZ altitude: 1000 ft ASL Weather: Sunny wet day with some clouds but there are holes. Jumprun: from the river along the runway area Your opening altitude: below 4000 ft A tandem jumps first just above the red spot showed in the picture. You will follow them. Now when you are hanging out of the door (You love feeling the wind while taking a look around before jumping) you spot a very big cloud coming right to you. You know you will see nothing but white once you enter the cloud. A few more seconds and you will enter the cloud after jumping. Question: How many seconds would you wait before jumping after the tandem? Remember there are 14 more eager tu jump skydivers behind you and pilots hate a second pass. Please, do not select what you think more experienced people would select. Select what you would do. Thank you! Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

Thank you Nicholas, Someone told me here that I must allow the same separation for groups and tandems and that the incident was my fault. I asked him how many seconds I should have waited and how many seconds I waited. I am sure I will not receive any answer. Many replies have shown similar arguments. If a tandem exits before me knowing that I will open lower, that is a mistake. Of course I must try to compensate it as much as I can allowing more separation. But it does not justify the tandem pilot's mistake. It is easier to tell " you should have done this or done that" when you are safe on the ground, with your laptop and a beer in front of you. I have not mentioned all the circumstances of this incident because I am looking for a default rule: NO TANDEMS EXIT FIRST because they open higher than the following jumpers. Most, if not all fatalities had occurred when unexpected circumstances affected a given event. That is why safety rules must be plain and simple, with no exceptions if possible, mainly when dealing with extreme sports. Be sure I will allow much more separation when it happens to me again. Unfortunatlly, from this thread I am sure it will happen again many times and hopefully the skydivers behind the tandem allow much more separation than the separation suggested after groups. If anyone wants to tell me again the incident was my fault, please post how many seconds would have s/he waited and how many seconds I waited. (If PM I will post it here) Volunteers? ... I guess not Well, I am going to pack my chute!

No, your case is that you just did not allow enough time before making your exit for proper horizontal separation, PERIOD. Your "case" could have happened just as readily if you had been exiting behind either this tandem OR an RW group for that matter. You seem to keep missing this one most critical point, no matter who, or how many people are trying to tell it to you! You do not need more separation from a tandem any more than any other group at all (and because tandems can not track potentially up the line of flight underneath you, perhaps even less - but that is a whole other "can of worms") - Just CORRECT and PROPER separation between every (and ANY) group. Which bottom line, it is clear YOU did not provide here, ...in this case. Your words: "You do not need more separation from a tandem any more than any other group at all" and "... it is clear YOU did not provide here, ..." Then, please could you tell me exactly how many seconds I should have waited and how many seconds I waited? If you prefer not to answer be sure I would understand Blue Skies too!

[reply Gonzalo, it sounds like you want to hear something specific, and are listening pretty selectively to try to hear the answer you want. And that's fine - tandems out last works well at most drop zones. I just want you to be aware that the problem you described initially was NOT due to "tandems out first" - it was due to insufficient horizontal separation, and waiting longer between groups will solve that problem. Yes! You are right. I asked for it! My goal is that tandems do not exit first at our DZ. My very first question explains it: I am looking for an official statement recommending tandems exit last, or at least not first. We have seen several incidents because someone in freefall (me included) has been too close to run into a tandem with its canopy open. This is the scenario: Tandems usually open at 5000 ft. Most skydivers usually open below 4000 ft. If the tandem exits before these skydivers it is a lot easier that some skydiver during freefall runs into the tandem with its open canopy. Fortunatley after my incident, many jumpers agreed. We will have a 2-day boogie next weekend with more than 20 tandems and they will exit last. Unfortunately it is not the same at our DZ and chances are we will see a fatality if tandems keep exiting first. Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

that's not something stupid you have done. It's something REALLY stupid your tandem masters are doing. Stick to your guns, show people the threads here on exit order and Kallend's exit order/separation info on his website. It might help. Unless your TM's and DZO are assholes. Thank you! I got the zip file! Excellent! Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

Thanks! And people opening higher should exit after people opening lower so that they have enough separation when they reach the same altitude with very different speeds Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet