Lucky...

>>>>>>>>>Granted we should be comparing Obama vs McCain ... Agreed, so why do we insist on bypassing McSame and moving to Palin? Is it that it doesn't boad well for the Repubs?

Yea, I love people saying how she is such a great and experienced debater, yet he has 35 years as a Senator where debate is daily sometimes, she has 2 years as a Governor, where debate is occassional. It's a high schooler versus a seasoned lawyer......it's gonna be bloody and that's even if it isn't her time of the month. Here's a thought, what if teh R's get elected, McSame soon croaks, she gets the pres bump and appoints someone even nuttier that herself, and then she become pregnant again? News headline: "The President's water just broke, she gave birth to a a baby Republican."

I would expect nothing less...from either of them. Problem with that is there's alot more crap to attack on Biden's side. Right, having an opinion on abortion that

Yea, but she has mittens.

Comma not required According to my university it does, I wish to belive them over you, sorry. I really don't give a fuck, I don't spell-correct, Birdman does tho. Not to mention, the question mark and exclamation mark should be within the quotation marks, unless the author actually wrote it that way. I stand corrected. You're right on both points. As were you about the colon. Comma usage is very subjective and changes thru time as with other grammatical use. Point is, and I'm sure you're with me on this, this is a posting board, not a term paper, not a legal document, who gives a fuck except you know who? For that guy to think perfect grammar and spellcheck somehow makes the content more persuasive is ridiculous....and I'm sure you're with me.

The minute you send me a pic of you with your armband I'm pro-military, I'm a vet, but the critique I have is that we fall into this concept that there is a military solution for everything. There's a time for it and a time for discussion. We certainly need to cut it in half and work on our social systems, foreign relations, etc.

I don't care what they think. I do care about who's running things based on how they're going to react. President Clinton did nothing. Nothing. A few cruise missiles here and there and let three chances to get bin Laden on a silver platter slip through his fingers. And your Chimp in Chief did????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? FUCKING NOITHING BUT GO ON VACATION AS HE WAS OFFLOADING THE COUNTRIES WEALTH TO CORP AMERICA.

>>>>>>>>>>>>I would just like to take a quick tangent and ask if you have something against the "reply" tags? This crazy arrow>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sh*t is just....well... I dunno, ask Bill Von, he does a different version of it. I see various people doing it - I like it / deal with it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>What do you think debates are based upon? You just opened Pandora's box. Debates are about issues, attacks are about personalities, traits, appearances, opinions, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Your value system is guiding you to the line of thinking you're expressing. But I could have the most awesome, most fucked up or somewhere inbetween value system and it doesn't affect the issue of Iraq, the economy and the debt. You bringing my value system into it is a typical cheap and meaningless distraction from the issue, or as tehy call it, an ad hominem. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I am exploiting that...and you're doing the same with mine. Not at all, I'm pointing out your tactics of avoiding issues for the most part and focusing on values and opinions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I disagree. Where you see an erosion of credibility I see as a quiet acceptance and a ground swell toward our line of thinking. What erosion of credibility? Who's? Credibility issues only have an bearing in cases where there is discourse or treaty, so I'mnot sure where your vagueness is going. Oh, and credibility for running the economy...well, history as evidence, the Repubs have negative cred based upon empirical data over 20 of the last 28 years. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Elections in France, Germany and possibly in the UK soon display that Show what, something about credibility? You need to support your assertions with evidence, not your opinion, but independant evidence. >>>>>>>>>>If the world were really so pissed off at us, the circumstances would be far worse. What situation? The civilized world still wants to stay on our good side, as well our economy is active even if our dollar is shit, so peopel have an interest here, but you seem to think we've turned some corner. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The reality is that in the political arena, these spectators are glad we're keeping the fight hot. It's not an environment of pseudo-peace in the 90s that fermented the worst attacks in our history. 911 was a collaboration of decades of hate against the west. GHWB started it, pissed off OBL, Clinton and the CIA did nothing to shore up our homeland, your fascist cokehead did nothink in 8 months, he was too busy offloading $$$ to corps as well as taking the entire month of August off, so who is really to blame? Did Chimp in Chief move toward tighter security? NO, yet you have no issue blaming Clinton. It was really American apathy, decades of it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.That's what it is about. You can tie religion into it too. These attacks on the west aren't over minor disagreements. This is the kettle boiling over on issues which you and I (everyone really) take for granted. It's about values, faith, money, power...all of it. I for one, am not willing to see our country just sit aside and take second fiddle. That is not what we are built upon. Values are subjective, that word is what you hear at a Nazi (Republican) convention. They use the word so they be the, "decider" on what value he wishes to use that moment. A Christian has values that don't allow for abortion, a hippie has values that allow for drug usage, this values word is pathetic, subjective and meaningless; it's fodder for the guilable and naive. The values that founded this country were of slavery, racism, classism, chauvenism (sp) and other attrocities. Whst do you think about values now? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>These terrorists are exploiting our freedoms and somehow, those against this campaign think that we'll be left alone if we do nothing and mind our own business. The 1990s are proof that is false. No, are they exploting Sweeden's freedoms? No, because Sweeden doesn't fuck in their business. We have enabled other bad guys to interfere in our business by way of apathetic security and our interference into their business. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>These guys are cowards. And so are we and all the superpowers. When did we ever fight a formidable enemy? We fight proxy wars and destroy small countries. We also tested nukes in the South Pacific for 46 to 58 destroying several communities. Shall we talk Japanese-American internment? How about dropping 2 nukes on primarily women and children to "persuade" the men to stop fighting. The list goes on, but we have done plenty of cowardly things - of course you won't see it that way, the US never does wrong. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've seen them with my own eyes, and I guarantee you that they question their "faith". This is part of the long road I mentioned. Faith? Who cares about that in this context? Again, yoiu keep making this about them, this is about OUR reaction to their BS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>You're acting like it was the US that started this. Mr. Ambiguity, do you mean 911 by, "this?" If so, it's been a series of counterattacks, which is what the Iraq War is about. Of course you won't see it that way, as the US is here to save the world and we only do positive things. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The top came off this brew during decolonization after WWII. Is that your way of saying our ever-so-justified rle in the Palestinian War..... nice, ornate language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.It was somewhat contained during the Cold War, proxy/localized. Right, we would just destroy other nations, so it was no biggy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The initial adjustment out of the Cold War was quiet, and I'll admit, it was looking good. We know that is not the case though. And then Iraq invaded Kuwait, we interveined and forgot to bring up our security, that was teh whole issue. We can't blame anyone else for our pathetic security but us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>.Really, when did you go over there? I'been all over teh South Pacific at various WWII sites, does that mean I automatically trump you since you have not? Being a military member, current or present, I have a hard time finding objectivity, same as with a cop. Do you think ANY innocent civilians were killed, or are yiou going to keep your ambiguity and Socratic methods intact. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do you really think if we tuck-tail and leave, that there will be peace? Do you really believe that? Fair enough if you do, however, having seen what I've seen, I don't agree with you. I think if we quit spending our great-great-great-great-great grandkids money, shore up our security and get out that we will have the best chance. So are you the guy that stays at a bar fight for which you can't possibly win, just to get your ass kicked to show you tried? We have to constantly reevaluate our position and make adjustments, rather than sticking to ignorance-based ideologies that we can never leave. Lookat VN, see how long ignorance won-out? >>>>>>>>>>>Yes it does. It addresses the issue of surrender and disarmament you're advocating. I'm not advocating disarmament on either side, I'm advocating spending our resource on ourselves exclusively.

Wait...isn't that what happened? Sure, in 93, 4 weeks after he took office. Then in 2001, >8 months after Bush took office, so my point was that the Arabs or any enemies of teh US don;t care about administrations, thx for illustrating that. A bunch more happened between '93 and '01. Thank you once again, and then the ultimate horrid act during who's admin? And do you think they gove a shit about who's admin is in control?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Peace in our time! That's it! How do you negotiate with radicals who's first line of business is your annihilation? You don't, you get out of their land, set up parameters in your homeland and watch very closely for intruders, kill them if they come here. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Us: We'd like to work out a solution Them: OK..when will you die? Who said anything about negotiations? We are playing into their hands by staying over there burning up our fortunes for teh next 100 years.

Wait...isn't that what happened? Sure, in 93, 4 weeks after he took office. Then in 2001, >8 months after Bush took office, so my point was that the Arabs or any enemies of teh US don;t care about administrations, thx for illustrating that.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dude, I get it. You're willing to negotiate compromises with your own values. So you have to make it about my values instead of the issue that we have bad people out there, do we attack them on an on-going basis and/or protect our homeland? Sucks to be out of merit and have to turn it against the other debater. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>You're hoping your country will willingly give up on its own values, compromise in the face of an unwilling foe. You keep trying to make this about values, hence tie it to character, a simple ad homem. Funny tho, listen to the Republican Party representatives when they speak this fall, all you hear are RAH-RAH, no direct or very little direct reference to a substantive plan. They don't talk about funding, byproducts to actions, alternate plans, just idiocy about - you're with us or you're against us - don't worry, just elect us and we'll take care of you. I don;t see your repsonse being different, you make it about my character when tgeh issue is about how to deal with terrorists. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Somehow, you think it is civilization's duty to do so...don't face them...just give them what they want...don't make them mad....they only want to be "part of"... How do you draw that from what I wrote? You can't, I wrote that we should get out of their business as we build and monitor our borders, not becuase it's what they want, but because it's what is best for us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>None of this is true or correct. These radicals don't want to be understood. And who the fuck said they did? I wrote that they don't care about our election cycles, they're not affraid of us. That has nothing to do with being understood. I realize that to even entertain that ridiculous remark actually somehow empowers you, but it needs to be noted that I have never given a shit about understanding them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.They want to be obeyed. And so do we. Neither will obey the other, so we should seperate, make sense? Or kill them until we are broke and then they kill us, then what? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The movement against Israel has nothing to do anymore with finding their own sovereign home, it's about eradicating Israel. It's more complicated than that, but we played a big part in the Palestinian War, so we reap the reward, 911 and others. We need to guard out home. Don't forget, the original Viet Nam, not this one, it took years to admit we would never win, this is the same. If it makes yiu feel better, we killed a 6:1+ ratio in VN, probably way more than that here, esp if you count innocent civilians, of course there are no innocent civilains to you, right? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The bombings of 9/11, 3/11, and 7/7 have nothing to do with just getting a message across. It has to do with trying to bring fear to the forefront. They got one out of the three. No, it's about US revenge, we have accomplished NOTHING. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We can always rebuild our fiscal structure. And we get the one MF that was doing that and your friends impeach him for lying about a blowjob. No, you are fooling no one, you have the position that we spend, spend, spend and when the world respects the US Dollar as the Mexican Peso, we just blow em up and take theirs. To say we can rebuild our fiscal infrastructure is ridiculous, we are done at 10T debt thanks to the neo-con movement. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>But to compromise with our values with some illusion of peace is deadly irresponsible. That's RW RAH-RAH rhetoric, who is compromising who's values? Compromising values would be like me stealing or raping. killing, etc. Looking for what is best for America by getting out of a non-winnable mess is just prudence. We will never enjoy peace, but to mitigate war we can sav our kids and fiscal health as best we can. >>>>>>>>>>>>This is a long road. It will entail great struggle. It is a road we must tread carefully and deliberately. To stop and give up is not an option. Dude, that si rhetoric that you babble as youplay teh national anthem in the backdrop, it doesn't address any issues. >>>>>>>>>>>>>.It's a shame you're so willing to throw it away. It's a shame you think 1o trillion dollars is lunch money.

The WTC attack in 1993, and Embassies are considered "native" soil. Semantics to point. My point is, the western world, not just the US, has been under systematic attack since Munich. From this side of the pond, it seems as though some out there are just willing to sit by and let it happen. Countries roll over, some count success by the number of cars burned in a day... ...unbelievable. And so there are avenues to take: - Guard our borders - Blow up people around the world and call it deterrence - Become more pallatable in a world sense The world isn't affraid of us, even if they should be, so that won't work - never did other than after we killed 300,000 women and children. Your solution to keep these guys busy killing our kids at teh rate of 800 per year and 180B per year is jus not workable.

Don't forget Iran-Contra...... oh, that was something else. See, your approach is to keep the world at bay by constantly blowing things up and making threats. Are you able to understand number and fiscal data? While it's fun to be the world's bullies, we can't fiscally maintain it. While we agree that we forced Russia to spend, leading to their demise, we think we are immune to that. Truth is we are not, we are going down the shitter, or actually have gone down the shitter. 10T debt and a devalued dollar is the result, but the Repub protocol is to blow up people that refuse to trade with us. It's just unworkable.

They just need to give the contract to El Al Security.. Fire all the fucknuggets that were hired by the government from the ranks of those who failed on 9/11 Well, Bush tried to sell the seaports to an Arabic nation......

Yea, under the Clinton years, no one jacked an acft..... hmmmm. The silliness with the repubs is that they think these Arabic nations are over there watching CNN to see who gets elected and react accordingly. If that were the case, they would have attcked under the Clinton admin, thinking he would be less likely to invade Iraq. They don't give a shit, and like a pig in mud, they like the attack.

10 posts in a row? My, you do like to see yourself in print. No substance in your post? Why how typical, at least you can say you posted in the thread, even if you don't understand anything in it. There's a difference between substance and oral diarrhea. Then wear a diaper, like your nominee.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The threat of prosecution keeps every store in the country from being cleaned out. Really? That's why therate of recitivism is so high, about 70% or higher. Deterrence theory isn't statistically substantiable since recitivism is high and crime rates don't correspond with rates of penalty. Crime rates seem to be more tied to the economy, but even then, thjat's weak. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Roll your eyes all you want. We haven't been attacked since then. Well then we can absolutley infer that delivering 4k dead kids and >700 billion dollars saved us, now if we could just maintain that. BTW, we have been fiscally attacked, out dollar value is piss, partially in part to the Iraq mess, so we really have been attacked in so many ways. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You guys only read what you want to read. That was exactly my point. We would never screen for race. That means the attackers would still be allowed on the plane even if the TSA was in place back then. The only difference between then and now is that their box cutter would be taken away. Hey, it was the poster's remark, not mine. He wrote that we were still letting Arabs on the aircraft. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>How much of roll do you think those little ass box cutters played? Personally I think the planes would've been taken over without any weapon. Pure speculation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, you jump to a rediculous conclusion for the chance to take a cheap shot. My point, for the third time, is that TSA screening would not stop the attackers from getting on the plane. Their box cutters wouldn't make it, but don't you think they would've figured something else out? Pure speculation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sure it does. Would it stop someone from taking over a plane? Highly doubt it. The flight deck doors, air marshals, and passengers would make it damn hard. So you're saying that Clinton's so-called relaxed CIA had nothing to do with it then, huh? Hmmm, good point.

Yes it does. You're right, America = allways all good / other than America = always bad. Nice try...not taking the bait. That subject has been disected ad nauseum here. Once again, no substance from you, just ad hominem. Nationalism is fortunately limited the the few, but far too many still.

10 posts in a row? My, you do like to see yourself in print. No substance in your post? Why how typical, at least you can say you posted in the thread, even if you don't understand anything in it.

TSA? Those jerkoffs couldnt protect a hot dog stand. What they claim to be security is a massive joke. What else do we have now that we didnt then? Hey, they fond gun and other stuff. I agree that it is a joke, but getting better. We just had nothing. Also it was the American, "just comply and wait for the cops to get there" idiocy that we subscribed to for so long.

Comma not required According to my university it does, I wish to belive them over you, sorry. I really don't give a fuck, I don't spell-correct, Birdman does tho. Not to mention, the question mark and exclamation mark should be within the quotation marks, unless the author actually wrote it that way.

Couldn't you see her in a remote trailer, perhaps a double-wide, out in Alaska somewhere? Hogs out in back, chickens in the front, peeking in the window and seeing her wearing a frilly robe, mouth wrapped around a bong. And the pation reads, "The next American VP." She may have even had sex while stoned.........we cannot trust anyone..... Yea, and if with a family member, so what? It's their culture, we need to preserve that.,

Yes it does. You're right, America = allways all good / other than America = always bad.

My name is Dick Johnson, WHY THE FUCK DO YOU CARE WHO I AM? So you can try to figure me out and exclude me at DZ's or meets becuase my opinions are different than yours? I know tons about WWII, esp the Pacific Theatre. Awe, did you ommit the part about you being Scott from Ohio, yet expecting a security clearance from me? BTW, I have extensive education about WWII Pacific Theatre, not as much European Theatre, but what does it matter? If you have a point or an opinion, post it rather than look for a resume.