Lucky...

Absolutely. When the law becomes lawless people lose regard for it and it makes society have no repsoect for laws they would otherwise follow. IOW's criminals can be manufactured.

It wouldn't suprise me if members of the citizenry are deciding to "fight back". How many cops have killed citizens lately in this new police state? One might want to think twice before becoming a blue line fraternity brother. Blues, Cliff Yea I know, I'm not the biggest fan of cops either. But this is a random act and it's sad to think of 4 people dead, even if they are cops that *might* have done this to others, there is a very real chance that these were good cops too. The real problem is with the court, BTW, they let the dirties get away with murder and this makes all cops look bad. The purpose/desgn of the establishment is to draw a line between cops and citizens; this may have been an ugly byproduct of that problem.

Family violence is never hilarious. They're real people with real lives. The only reason why this made it into the national media is because the man can play a mean round of golf. If it was your neighbors, then sadly, no one would seemingly care. And that's my point, people with privilege use it and so when they have 'everyone' probs it gets used against them via mass media coverage.

LOL. But the SUV careened off the hydrant and hit the tree, so that's a double-bogey....apparently golf skill doesn't run in the family. Funny shit dude.

Because it's such a classist nation, it breeds this kind of emotion, at least from poor fuckers like me. Guy's got everything, now it appears he's prolly fucking around on an already fine wife, gets his ass kicked and leaves his what, 30M mansion in his 100k car and crashes.

And we could say that your beloved Repubs wanted to make the US into a Nazi fascist mess. Actually they did, but that is what the voters wanted and got; so what? This is now what the voters want so are you saying the American model is a POS or just the parts of it you disagree with? If you want to support it, you do it. I scanned the list and it reads like the typical, 'sky is falling' RW rhetoric. Me too, why bring sex into this? I appreciate you thinking he's a Socialist. If you think he a Communist or a Muslim Terrorist I'll think you're nuts, but to say he's a Socialist is heading teh right way. Now don;t think he's a 100% Socialist or he would be suggesting we consolidate all corporations and have the gov become the bank, etc. But generally he is heading toward a quasi-Socialist society. Well ya didn't share it. Furthermore, the Socialist aspects of his presidency were known and voted upon where he won by 10M votes, so you're not arguing anything but what the voters knew of then. Are you arguing the voters fucked up? Are you arguing the voters were deceived? I think Obama disclosed his quasi-Socialist agenda. Hear ye, hear ye Fixed it for ya. And if you are a humanitarian, rejoice in that the world hates us less and will hopefully love us again. Oh yes we have, the Great Depression was worse and the Civil War was worse that both of those put together and multiplied by 10. No, I rely on the Cato Institute where they talk about teh other Socialist, FDR, who allegedly tripled taxes, when in reality it was Hoover with his Revenue Act of 1932. Yes, they are usually wrapped around RW rags. It's the Internet(s) that have killed the newspapaers, not some liberal conspiracy. Really? How does he feel about other forms of media? I think it depends upon how honest the mediaa is, for example the Cato Institute. So what is he substantively doing? Is he planning a strafing mission on all FOX stations? So what, his opinion is that they disseminate BS, well, they do. Let me have fun with a few of the paranoid contradictions: - When his voting record supported gun control, people said it didn't matter. How about GHWB's NRA card being yanked? How about GWB saying he would sign Clinton's sunsetted AWB if congress gave it to him? Let's jump back into reality here. - When it was pointed out that he was a total, newcomer and had absolutely no experience at anything except community organizing, people said it didn't matter. So that little JD and several years teching law school, 4 years in teh senate amount to nothing? I wish I had that kind of nothing experience. - When he refused to wear a flag, lapel pin and did so only after a public outcry, people said it didn't matter. Well that changes everything now that he has the pin; it gives him special powers - When people started treating him as a Messiah and children in schools were taught to sing his praises, people said it didn't matter. That's rhetoric, some people looked at Reagan and GWB as the 2nd coming too, so what? And after this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXX3uspbq8U anyone looks like the Messiah. - When his background was either scrubbed or hidden and nothing could be found about him, people said it didn't matter. I don't know of this, I guess it's my duty to prove your point. And I'm sure you were up in arms when GWB's military record was unavailable and after much outcry he produced a blacked-out document. I must have missed your rage at that. - When he aired his views on abortion, homosexuality and a host of other issues, people said it didn't matter. Oh, and why does it matter? And people give me shit for Onion-gate? This is my point; conservatives feel as the Onion satirically portrayed. - When he said he favors sex education in Kindergarten, including homosexual indoctrination, people said it didn't matter. You need to source this. - When he appointed Kevin Jennings, a homosexual, and organizer of a group called gay, lesbian, straight, Education network, as safe school czar and it became known that he had a history of bad advice to teenagers, people said it didn't matter. Same as above with the homophobic point. - When he took over insurance companies, car companies, banks, etc. I seee, bailing them out and having the gov have an interest is teh same as taking them over. So letting them fail and have easily 25% unemployment, real unemp probably 35-40% is better? - When he took away student loans from the banks and put it through the government, people said it didn't matter. The banks weren't lending, so instead of doin what stupid (GWB) would do and let them go w/o edication, he chose to take command. - When he designed plans to take over the health care system and put it under government control, people said it didn't matter. When 40+M people went w/o coverage and millions had unsufficient coverage it didn't matter to conservatives ....just sick. - When he took a huge spending bill under the guise of stimulus and used it to pay off organizations, unions and individuals that got him elected, people said it didn't matter. Cite. The guise of stimulus; are you living in a different country, world? Do you not see the verge of total collapse? Is the stimulus unnecessary? - When he started spending us into a debt that was so big we could not pay it off, people said it didn't matter. Inheriting over 11T with a totally ill economy is now his fault? The only place I see the red is after the Repubs; care to make sense here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms - When he upset the Europeans by removing plans for a missile defense system against the Russians, People said it doesn't matter. Yes, we all know the Axis of Evil Ruskies are laying in wait. Just like fascist Ronnie (FR) thought, they were out to get us. He was wrong, so is anyone else absent new evidence. - When he traveled around the world criticizing America and never once talking of her greatness, people said it didn't matter. It's called humility. The US has been a toilet and our leader is trying to change that. - When as president of the United States ,he bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia , people said it didn't matter I guess it beats this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnOnDatqENo

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091129/ap_on_re_us/us_officers_shot I wonder if they were personally targeted or just a random cop killing? It seems the latter. Depraved society.

You're right. It appears it was Tiger fucking some chick, his wife figuring it out, a fight ensuing and him getting his ass kicked by her. Then he runs outside and hides in the SUV by locking the doors. She says, 'oh no you di'ent' and gets a club and breaks the back window out., then he hauls ass and is looking backwards for Kujo as he floors it and runs into a hydrant/tree. Now they're not talking. It really is hillarious when multicazzillionaires have problems like all of us. Basically, Tiger should have been wearing a wife-beater instead of a polo shirt and driving a 79 Suburban instead of an 09 Escalade and there we go. Basically your Beverly Hillbillies Tiger-style.

Could you finish the thought about necessity? What makes it necessary, or why is it necessary? Looking for you to finish the thought. Not disagreeing about necessity - just want to know exactly why you think it is necessary. I WROTE: First, let me say . This is more futility in arguments. I think the AMA would laugh at this for days. Firstly, preventative medicine is neccessary and your plan doesn't provide for that. ---> These guys seem to think so: http://www.acpm.org/finalproof_90.pdf http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/no-index/about-ama/13678.shtml ---> And this is great, even summarizes the number of deaths taht could be prevented annually... youdo want that, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_medicine Hypertension 7.8 Smoking 5.0 High cholesterol 3.9 Malnutrition 3.8 Sexually transmitted infections 3.0 Poor diet 2.8 Overweight and obesity 2.5 Physical inactivity 2.0 Alcohol 1.9 Indoor air pollution from solid fuels 1.8 Unsafe water and poor sanitation 1.6 ---> This site really summarizes it http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-preventive-medicine.htm When preventive medicine is applied to a whole population, it includes things like: - extensive work in public health, - pest and insect control, - vaccinations, - food safety, and - improvements in hygiene for water supplies, homes, and individuals. Not to mention being able to have aches and pains checked out that sometimes turn out to be cancerous and could have ressulted in a life saved, rather than chemo and an early death, as the cancer was too far spread. Of course I don't most conservatives really care about stuff like this.

So what's the big deal? http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Landmime

Actually I like this one better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Beck

Tat doesn't make sense because before Obama 5 of the last 7 presidencies were won by Repbs. Can't we say the opposite is true, keep electing R's and maybe the debt will get fixed? In fact, all 5 R terms had the debt significantly rise and the 2 D terms in the middle had the budget baalnced; doesn't that more fit your insanity model or continuing to do the same thing, expecting a diff result? If you honestly believe those accounting tricks actually created a real, honest (like you & I musty live by, not what politicians in DC live by) REAL "balanced budget?" I'll bet you think illusionist Cris Angle actually flies because you saw it on TV. "Balanced Budget" Are you REALLY that gullible (rhetorical question as your constant parroting of party propaganda proves this almost daily)? Accounting trickery & illusion caused the problems that swamp us today, & you post as if more trickery & illusion (what's being promoted in Congress today) will save us. "Acting/reacting the same way and expecting the results to change: The definition of insanity." Thank you for proving the point. Your propaganda inspired responses undermine your position better/faster than anything else. Oh, & thank you for the laughs. I needed it this morning. So you don't EMPIRICALLY criticize the data, just, "It's the 40-year lag theory." . Riiiiiight, that all makes perfect sense, the virtually absolute trend is to have R's running up the debt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms and Dems to be working to be cutting it. Right, right, right, it all makes sense inside your head, so that's what matters. The data doesn't pan out bro, give er up. And thank you for not presenting some empirical data, that furthered my point, not that it need the help.

And when it comes to wages, virtually every blue state leads red states and with workplace mortatlity, they're much higher in red states. So this is all very consistent.

Really? Look at the graph, even as population grew, the rate of poverty fell: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/rdp06.html By region: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov9.html So not true. And by letting elite grub all theirs means people br in poverty. If data wer available for the GD era we would see amazingly stark numbers. Most of these programs are fed or state funded, so you just dumped on yourself. Right, so just ignore the corporate welfare and let us fuck everyone. IOW's, apathy please. Sorry, not gonna do it, wouldn't be prudent. Really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms Look at the top chart, the numbers on the right are red under the R presidents. So are gonna retract that statement or continue looking silly? Generally true, however Eisenhower kept the tax brackets at 91% top and even dirty Nixon and Ford kept them at at least 70%. See how dirty the R's are now? And if Obama yanks them to 50%+ you'll cry, but he will still be more conservative than so many very conservative presidents. So respectively, taxes are ultra-low. Unless everyone is tax exempt, this will be the case, so are you advocating zero taxes? True, Reagan and GWB are the repositories of care for peole Actually it's the corporate nipple bringing us down. Where did/will virtually all of the 700B + 787B go? Right, corps failed, the gov replentished them, the $$$ went to the corp nipple. Uh oh, another diddy, diddy's diddy story. Of course this is all true, esp in tough times, but taken too literally and then we bust all unions and teh workers are atthe whims of the rich and corps. So a little balance is nice. What he's saying is that to say take low-paying jobs forever due to osme sick work ethic of licking man's balls for whatever they want to pay us is akin to indentured servitude. Attitudes like yours keep the poor,poor. If they dare want to organize and strike they're ungrateful batsards. It's just American corps being unpatriotic and shipping jobs overseas, American government not being responsible to its citizenry. Minimum wage; hard to understand? And checck to see how many R's have done all they can to prevent any increases in min wage.

That's about the onloy true thing youy've said since I've had the luxury of reading your hogwash.

Tat doesn't make sense because before Obama 5 of the last 7 presidencies were won by Repbs. Can't we say the opposite is true, keep electing R's and maybe the debt will get fixed? In fact, all 5 R terms had the debt significantly rise and the 2 D terms in the middle had the budget baalnced; doesn't that more fit your insanity model or continuing to do the same thing, expecting a diff result?

Are you saying you think they will get away with it all? I don't believe so, the one thing they 'misunderestimated', was the power of the internet. While all this 'new american century' bull shit was being schemed, you and I probably didn't even have an email address yet? I opened my first email account in 1999. When the 'project for a new american century'was being schemed, Google was being developed... who would have thought of the capabilities we have today to search information as individuals. Long gone are the days of the encyclopedia in the lounge room for your information needs. Today there are literally millions of people that want a new investigation. many countries many facets of society know thay are being lied to. The opression is handed out to a subdued and willing audience, it will take only time to heal the wounds and let common sence prevail. The truth is already prevalent. Until then I will continue to fill these archives with the information ( laboriously developed by others), and the idiots that think this was a simple terrorist attack from Osama Bin Ladin(bush's family freind) or Khalid Shaikh Mohammed or whoever, will continue to immortilise thier nieve, disrepectful (to 9/11 victims) and selfish opinions. That's all fine and good, and needed, but accountability is only for the blatant like Madoff, Schilling and others. Most make it look like a big mistake and walk away. The only accountability here is with the little people.

I knew if I threw out the hook you would bite . Delayed enlistment; I signed up in April, reported in May; therefore I served inactive reserve time and served more than you did before I was inducted. But of course if you had spoken with a recruiter you would know that. Kida like Reagan had an eye problem; couldn't see going to fight with the men, did you have a back problem; wanted to go back home? Back problem in your 20's/late teens? Ahh, and Reagan's eyesight was good enough to be a lifeguard while in college, good enough to enlist in the reserves and get promoted a bunch, but not good enough to go to war in time of draft? Still listening for the ring of truth. You can waive anything, but it's more than suspect that he was inducted into the reserves, had to go to some form of basic training, yet was unable to go to war? It just sounds like BS to me; no ring of truth. Here's Elvis: On January 8, 1957, the Memphis Draft Board held a press conference and announced Presley would be classified 1A and would probably be drafted sometime that year. On December 20, 1957, Presley received his draft notice. Hal Wallis and Paramount Pictures had already spent $350,000 on the film King Creole, and did not want to suspend or cancel the project. The Memphis Draft Board granted Presley a deferment to finish it. On March 24, 1958 he was inducted as US Army private, under the service number US 53 310 761, at Fort Chaffee near Fort Smith, Arkansas. Two Army officers Arlie Metheny and John J. Mawn, coordinated the entry and shielded Presley from bombardment by national media and free-lance photographers.[128] Presley completed basic training at Fort Hood, Texas, on September 17, 1958, before being posted to Friedberg, Germany, with the 3rd Armored Division, where his service took place from October 1, 1958 until March 2, 1960. Gee that was convenient, kept him out of Korea, a neat little delay. Yea, we all buy that BS and celebrities don't get preferecne. WWII guys were tough, they weren't the primadonnas of latter years, a little bad eyesight could be corrected. Contact lens technology was extremely antiquted then anyway. http://www.eyetopics.com/articles/18/1/The-History-of-Contact-Lenses.html Ted Nugent, another RW war coward: http://www.newshounds.us/2007/08/26/proof_ted_nugent_is_a_draft_dodger_will_hannity_keep_defending_him.php Here's a fine list: http://ocd-gx-liberal.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_archive.html -- Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem, " although continued in NFL for 8 years as quarterback -- Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage. -- John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business (and teh RW calls Clinton a coward for the same kinds of things?) Thene there's John Wayne: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne#Military_service_controversy America's entry into World War II resulted in a deluge of support for the war effort from all sectors of society, and Hollywood was no exception. Many established stars rushed to sign up for military service. Most notably, James Stewart, who had already enlisted in the US Army Air Corps, surmounted great obstacles in order to do so. As the majority of male leads left Hollywood to serve overseas, John Wayne saw his just-blossoming stardom at risk. Despite enormous pressure from his inner circle of friends, he put off enlisting. Wayne was exempted from service due to his age (34 at the time of Pearl Harbor) and family status, classified as 3-A (family deferment). Wayne's secretary recalled making inquiries of military officials on behalf of his interest in enlisting, "but he never really followed up on them."[23] He repeatedly wrote to John Ford, asking to be placed in Ford's military unit, but continually postponed it until "after he finished one more film."[24] Republic Studios was emphatically resistant to losing Wayne, especially after the loss of Gene Autry to the Army.[25] Correspondence between Wayne and Herbert J. Yates (the head of Republic) indicates that Yates threatened Wayne with a lawsuit if he walked away from his contract, though the likelihood of a studio suing its biggest star for going to war was minute.[26] Whether or not the threat was real, Wayne did not test it. Selective Service Records indicate he did not attempt to prevent his reclassification as 1-A (draft eligible), but apparently Republic Pictures intervened directly, requesting his further deferment.[27] In May, 1944, Wayne was reclassified as 1-A (draft eligible), but the studio obtained another 2-A deferment (for "support of national health, safety, or interest").[27] He remained 2-A until the war's end. Thus, John Wayne did not illegally "dodge" the draft, but he never took direct positive action toward enlistment. Wayne was in the South Pacific theater of the war for three months in 1943–44, touring U.S. bases and hospitals as well as doing some "undercover" work for OSS commander William J. "Wild Bill" Donovan, who thought Wayne's celebrity might be good cover for an assessment of the causes for poor relations between General Douglas MacArthur and Donovan's OSS Pacific network. Wayne filed a report and Donovan gave him a plaque and commendation for serving with the OSS, but Wayne dismissed it as meaningless.[28] The foregoing facts influenced the direction of Wayne's later life. By many accounts, Wayne's failure to serve in the military during World War II was the most painful experience of his life.[29] There were some other stars who, for various reasons, did not enlist. But Wayne, by virtue of becoming a celluloid war hero in several patriotic war films, as well as an outspoken supporter of conservative political causes and the Vietnam War, became the focus of particular disdain from both himself and certain portions of the public, particularly in later years. While some hold Wayne in contempt for the paradox between his early actions and his later attitudes, his widow suggests that Wayne's rampant patriotism in later decades sprang not from hypocrisy but from guilt. Pilar Wayne wrote, "He would become a 'superpatriot' for the rest of his life trying to atone for staying home." Here's one VN vet Marine's opinion: http://www.veteranstoday.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2838 Bill Clinton was a draft dodger. George Bush was also as was Cheney. Most politicians, almost all Republicans and the majority of Democrats were draft dodgers during wartime and service avoiders during peace. Ronald Reagan was a draft dodger as was John Wayne. Bob Dole was a draft dodger who got caught during the final weeks of the war, was wounded and became the spokesmen for all veterans. What a crock of bullshit he is. I think he pretty much nailed it. Another good list of those who served and not: http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html Then of course Limbaugh, the ass cyst guy. Looks like he was a Clintonesque draft dodger via school, but when he quickly dropped out, he was 1-A; ready for draft. So he had to quickly change this by getting a medical not from the induction doctors, but from HIS OWN PRIVATE DOCTOR. And what did he have wrong? Looks like the obvious; an anal cyst! http://www.snopes.com/military/limbaugh.asp And I've pointed out that the vein POS wore them, they werevery antiqauted in those days. I can show you military-based site after another that polishes his knob. This one is extremely slanted as he had to have a medical for the reserves in 1937. Let me say that I've never heard an Obama liberal like you claim to be, defend him so much, or for that matter, every conservative. Truth is, all we have to go by is the little evidence we have and the ring of truth. - He was a lifeguard in college - He was in the reserves for 5 years before the war and no issues of eyesight - He escaped going to war by some last minute dodge effort - He was allowd to stay in LA and make movies after a short stint in SF. This has typical preference written all over it.

I agree with all but the last part; they will flee with their money and laugh as they do so, this should create a political shift that is permanent.

Other than having the satisfaction of finding the son of a bitch and peeling his skin off an inch at a time, I sometimes wonder if we are not better off to not have killed him. If we had, he would be a martyr, even more popular in developing Islamic nations than he was after 9/11. Instead he has spent the time since hunkered down in a miserable cave somewhere, always looking over his shoulder. We wiped the floor with Al Qaeda everwhere they met us in battle, (at great cost I know) He has been marginalized greatly. With him alive or dead, Al Qaeda will remain a dangerous organization. I don't know if he makes a difference in that at all. But from what I understand, he is far less revered now because of how things worked out. Maybe it is better than a martyr. Yep, if he's even still alive. Besides, his admin and resources are so distributed that you will never stop all, so just try to make yourself less of a target and guard your homeland. Just think of the homeland port/coast/border security we could have with > $1 T.

If you don't understand what people are saying, you make yourself an ass by stating you do. 'Nobody' thinks GWB himself felled the towers, he was simply a part of the plan, and far to stupid to pull off such a scam. These people (thuthers) are not just pointing the finger, they are providing evidence, intellectual and complete scientific peer reviewed journals and are gaining some serious ground (especially in the last couple of weeks if you have been watching, which I doubt), the auhorities have come to a point where they have to address the issue, and fucktard republican followers will be eating their ten gallon hats when the truth comes out in the short future. Republican followers are unmistakably selfish and repugnant people with the desire to support the welfare of no other than themselves. The republican party and its follwers (voters) are responsable for the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people, they show no remorse for such behavior and deserve nothing less than a slow painful death. IMHO Rant over. Bring on your PA's, I couldn't give a shit, the right wing neo con followers are the Bane of society. Get off my wave length . No, I think it's possible Cheney had a hand and that Bush was just selectively apathetic, but so was he with Katrina. I dunno, conspiracies must be substantially proven by the conspirators. It wouldn't take a notarized affidavit from god for me to believe the RW had a hand, but I would need more evidence. With the ytter lack of compassion they show to others I see the framework there, but the evidecnce hasn't been produced yet. I appreciate people who try to bring it togther tho. As with McVeigh, he was a conservative nut, so I don't think it takes much to go from conservative to some of these acts.

I'm a registered R but don't consider most of myh values that way. I actually don't think they stoop to blatant dishonesty. Post a citation, I could be wrong. I'm sure there are a couple out there, but with RW rags, it's constant. I actually don't subscribe to or visit Moveon and the ilk. Which ones do that? Are they factually incorrect or are they just opinionated? That was my point, so many RW rags will actually distort history, esp in obvious ways. Examples. Not sure what your referring to. I'm talking about taking historical facts and blatantly lying, not saying Reagan saved the economy and that altho the debt tripled under him, it was Carter's fault. That's just opinion-spin, a blatant lie would be to say that the Dems ran all of congress under Reagan all 8 years, that's the stuff I'm talking about.

Sure. I could argue using facts to show you where you are wrong. I could also try to drag a dead mule. I would have more success with the latter. Or you could just go and find some assertions I refuted and try to refute mine. Hey, I thought the rhetoric mess was over between us, are you gonna go back to trashing this place or can we keep it substantive? Refer back to post #27. I'm not sure what's funnier, these continuing rants, or the fact that lucky keeps saying "Republicans are evil, Democrats are good", or the fact that he actually believes that? Right now that's true. Your denials that the RW didn't get us here are yet to be refuted by you or anyone. But the R's haven't always been the turds, they were once the heroes. Been a while tho.

Yea, and you can't tell the ddifference; nutty Libertarians hop back and forth between the Libertarian Party and Republican Party. Did you vote for Ron Paul the dieharrd Liber? Oh wait, I forgot, he ran as a Repiblican and is a Republican in congress. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul Political party Republican (1976-1988) Libertarian (1988 Presidential Election) Republican (1988-Present) Yea, nice argument, can you tell or are they interchangeable? And of course you'll run it, but you can't make us believe that your opinions of gays aren't exactly what is portrayed by the Onion. No conservatives have so far.

You've stuck a fork in that a while ago. You expect me to take shots and ignore them. YOU want to trash this forum with petty BS, not me. I really get nothing from your discourse, but love to hand you your ass. Wanna grow up, just ignore or address constructively. Wanna keep trashing the forum, keep doing this: I find it surprising that even you would stoop so low as to say... And then you claim I'm trying to start shit, you started that. Maybe it isn't so surprising after all. I didn't mean for you to get your panties all wadded up. Go ahead and hand me my ass....if you can. You've tried several times and failed miserably. Ya wanna see and intelligent post? No they weren't. In general, people buy as much house as they are allowed. All that lowering interest rates does is change the ratio of interest and principle. They are still going to max out the combined total of the two. With higher interest rates they would have bought a less expensive house, yes, but their total payment remains the same because interest is higher, so nothing changes in loan risk. What sent it to hell was Congress "encouraging" Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to underwrite very questionable loans, setting the new industry standard. They were hell bent to make sure everyone could have the American dream of home ownership. The bottom line is that many people are not responsible enough to handle it. That old standard of 20% down separated who was and who wasn't. Under the new rules you didn't need savings or a down payment, you didn't have to prove you could pay it back. 17% of those who took sub prime loans never made their FIRST payment. Tell me how interest rates did anything, since they never paid any? They raised the percentage of income one could have in debt payment. The big killer was underwriting balloon loans, for people who had no chance of ever being able to make the the balloon payments. You said we need big government to protect us from ourselves? Maybe. But the traditional rules to get a home loan worked just fine for decades. Erasing them put us in this mess. That's the opposite of yours, try being more like guys like this and I'll enjoy responding to you, until then it just trashes the forum and we all know no one likes that (except you).