Para5-0

Just pay the I/E in advance, he will mail the rating and you can save the time and travel.

1. 23 2. 24,000 3. No, You can pump gas and make more money. 4. After first jump 5. 1000 Jumps/Year 6. Sub Discipline within the sport, I do not wingsuit. 7. Yes I have. 8. Anytime you add another system to the sport it increases the odds that something will go wrong. 9. Yes, 10 Malfunctions in 8500 Jumps 10. Intense.

Get your AFF rating, I think you meet the requirements.

It is unbeleivable I am reading this after last weekend. On a Quasar student rig, I watched a level 6 student exit in a middle float solo position. after getting stable he initiated a back loop. At the time I did not notice but after reviewing the video the right riser cover came undone and was flapping in freefall. The risers were exposed and also started to flap around, causing the toggle to unstow as well as pull out at least 6 feet. Trailing above student. On deployment the toggle wrapped the bridle above the D-bag causing a complete streamer with chute out. Student initiated cutaway and had clean release deployment. This has not happend before on these rigs and we have only two of them online. Needless to say they are grounded. They are both older rigs.

Right. That's where the DZO, Chief Instructor, and S&TA come in. But all too often, the DZO is more interested in getting the load up than in getting a student properly trained. And if the CI, S&TA, and Instructor don't comply, they don't have their jobs for very long. Or at all. If I understand this correctly, a new AFFI comes back and the S&TA or CI is responsible for the oversight of said new instructor? What if sub par candidates are coming back? Then we are there to retrain and mentor staff that shouldn't have been rated? Why not call it continued education and make up another rating. See: Is AFFI CC to easy thread.

This answer made me laugh. and your naked, cant find your keys, wallet, or car, and there is 50 messages on your phone from your wife.

K, Please do not take anything I am saying personal, I am sure you did well and Bram put on a good course. My problem with the course is continuity. Like I said if Bram ran the course that way, not all I/E's are drinking the same Koolaid. Also, do not let the discussion discourage you or take it as a shot at the rating you earned. We should always be looking to improve the training.

TDS, If what you are saying is true, I do not think all the I/E's got the memo. I know as a fact that courses are given with practice jumps in between evaluation or "Hot" jumps. If you get an unsat on a jump, students are now doing practice jumps to gear them up for attempt 2.

If I understand the New course, and I am sure someone will explain it better you have four opportunities to get three satisfactories. Two Cat C and then one Cat D. So you need to be at 75%. pass 3 out of four attempts. If you pass both cat C's with a partner(alternating Main/Reserve) then you have two shots to pass a Cat D. So hypothedically if you bomb your first attempt at the cat D you get another chance, and you have to declare it. Meaning you can take time off to practice it the jump. Something that should have been done before you got there. Sounds like a coin toss to me. The old system once you started you started the evaluation jumps, Period. You had 6 jumps to aquire 12 points. Each jump was worth 4 points. As I mentioned earlier I have heard of very few 4's ever being given. (another problem for another story) So you need to avg. 2 points over 6 jumps. Lets say you bust your hard deck or lose your student, that is an automatic 0. Forcing you to get a 4 or at least two 3's if you have time. By dragging the evaluation process out to six jumps it most definately will rear any dificiencies in your flying. The new course is most definately different, it sounds like a coin toss to me. Sounds like an Obama course to me. (like having swimming or track in the olympics not use stop watches because it is unfair to have someone lose.)(Share the ratings, we should all have them)(The new socialistic approach to the world). I assisted a second grade class at our DZ the other day and had the class come in and sit in a room and watch some videos explaining the sport, I told them to sit on the floor "Indian style" Oh we dont use that term anymore. We wouldnt want to offend the indians. Are you F'in kidding me? We dont play dodge ball anymore because we do not want the weak to feel as if we are picking on them. Same here we do not want those not ready to be a full AFF Instructor to feel bad about their flying skills so let make a pre course to help everyone, and then let give redos and more practice jumps, and lets eat cupcakes before we get on the plane, and when we land we can all hold hands and play ring around the Rosie if of course it doesnt offend Rosie. I beleive the AFFI course should be the most challenging course in the sport. End of my discussion onthis topic. That will do two things. 1. If you earn it give respect to you at your dropzone. 2. Give respect and integrity to the rating for those who have it. Tell me the negatives of the older method. I will even help everyone out, I heard it was too subjective. What exactly was a 3 or what exactly was a 4. Different i/e's with different scores for similar jumps. If there is one AFFI who recently got his/her rating and admitted that deep down inside they were a bit ashamed or embarrassed to spread the great news of the rating around the DZ, why would that be? Wouldnt we elliminate that if the course had integrity, legitimacy, and was repected by the skydiving community.

First off, They didnt have a coach rating, back in the stone age. So I need not go further but to appeae you. The AFF JM requirements were BIC Course, 6 Hours FF.. for the most part, to explain it so you will understand the AFFJM rating, (It is you right now)(New AFF graduate with snot in his goggles, who is trying to get as much experience as he can by shuting up, watching, listening, and learning from an Old Timer) BIC=Basic Instructors Course. Where are you getting this 100 jump JM stuff? Are you talking about the Jump Master Rating? Where you were responsible for overall safety of the load, exit order, spotting,,,Etc? Okay, you win the argument, you can have 100 jumps and load a plane and spot for a load. But you are not ready to be a Freefall Specialist. You still have pie in your face, and need to wipe it off and worship the Ole Timers as you put it. And by the way you owe beer.

Sure, I can accomodate, The rquirements are absurd. 100 jumps, B license..are you nuts. I have been advocating raising it to 200 and a C. Nobody cares. I am told it has been brought up numerous times and voted down. Figure of the first 100 0-25 working on A license, so that leaves 75 jumps to work on your skills to the point you can fly with a student and presumably assist them in learning. There is no valid reason that I see not to raise the standard. Except , I do hear that small cesna DZ's will have trouble getting people that have that experience. OMG if you do not have a skydiver with 200 jumps who can take a coach course are you really a DZ or are you a small group of friends with a plane and a place to land. How about we make a Coach Pre-Course and teach how to be coaches and then incorporate it with the coach course.

Now that is funny. Let me explain what the Coach rating has become. A nuissance for someone wanting to be an Instructor. That is one reason, I do not enjoy giving the course anymore. All candidates get their rating on Saturday and on Sunday are enrolled in the Tandem course or AFF course. Ozzy you're saying that you used your coach rating to hone your flying skills and learn how to interact and teach students? or it was one requirement that you checked off your card to go to an AFF course? Could be tough for you to fib on this one.

Absolutely 100%, the way it should be and I applaud your DZ. I did it fairly similar. Problem: AFP or One Instructor DZ's

Good for your DZ. But not all are like yours. Some treat a brand new AFFI good to go and throw them in the ring.

Dave, It used to be that way. There was a AFF JM rating, usually that meant you were reserve side or at least closely supervised by an AFFI. That has now gone by the waste and it is up to each DZ to incorporate new instructors as they see fit. To expand on the analogy, I think it was mine, these guys want to be captains right out of the gate. It is like getting your private pilots license and going straight to the 727 captains chair. Hell they learned everything in the course why not? Or as one guy said in another trend, "I am 100% ready for whatever is thrown my way" refering to Kip and what a great job he did in his course. (Laughable)You are correct there should be a slow mentor process. And us older guys, which I sorta take offense to, who rode co-pilot seat and worked our way into the captains chair should just shut up and not say a word about a new guy skipping the whole process and just jumping on in. Horse shit. and to reply to the above about the competition, I have said it about ten times I am not saying that Newer instructors are not good or that we are better. I am saying the standards have changed and more than likely who ever you are could have passed the old standards, good for you. But what about the new AFF's who are getting through and being thrown into full blown AFF and losing students. I guess that is okay. Which brings up another point, IMO if you lose a student, you should be GROUNDED until an I/E can debrief with you and re-evaluate you. To include if you are seen violating any of the major rules, Not riding a deployment through, bustin hard deck...Etc. This isnt a joke, stop treating it as one.

Do not turn into a tandem factory, and remember the student program and fun jumpers.... treat the staff right.

I think we are all on the same page for the most part. DSE you took your class with Jay S. I know Jay very well and I know he puts on an excellent AFFI CC. IF you make it through he feels that you are competent. In conversations with him, the criteria he uses is whether or not he would let you take a family member. That being said we are not diminishing any new rating holder. We are just saying that the standards have changed. Remember the same Course Directors taught under both systems. I would love to have them chime in here. It is a fact, that the standards have been loosened and it is a fact that some new AFFI's 10 years ago would not have earned the same rating. What bothers me is the appearance that the rating is being handed out to anyone who pays for it. Again, not everyone. But I am telling you that is what is being said out there. This hurts both of us. It diminishes the new instructors because they are all klumped together in a category of, "They are handing out ratings nowadays". and it hurts the old system guys by making the rating a joke. It bothers me and it should bother you to see what we put into this class and then to see a guy, go to the class with few jumps, no practice, never stopped a spin, never flipped over a student, never did a coach jump or very few, never assisted with a true first jump class...and come away with the AFF Instructor rating. So basically now that guy is responsible for coaches never even have really coached. This nausiates me, and then they expect the respect that a AFFI deserves? Again, skydivers are not stupid, it is the person that earns the respect not the rating. I used to say that if a skydiver was a AFFI, then beleive me they knew how to fly and I would trust them without ever seeing them in the air. I would say to other instructors if that guy is an AFFI he is not just good he is excellent. Now, I do not trust the system anymore and I am sceptical of all ratings issued. Let me say another thing when you meet a guy who went through the old system, and I have, it is funny how you both have an immediate bond and also the same opinnion. That is why i tend to agree with Dave. What you both need to understand is that this hurts us both. Tighten the reigns on the course and make it a true evaluation course. Not a, lets teach you how to be an AFF Instructor course. Give the rating back its integrity, because whether you admit it or not, it has become something less than what it used to be. and the new guys should agree because they will get more respect out of it, trust me we used to have it.

Be very careful, You have no idea what is ahead of you and thinking you are 100% ready might get you in trouble, biting off more than you can chew. Remember as good as Kip may be he can't come close to throwing at you what you will really see out there. Good Luck.

I think it is fair to say had we kept the old system that we would have far less AFFI's today. I also think it is fair to say that some AFFI's that earned their rating the new way are excellent instructors. Maybe the newer AFF's should look at the old system and see if they could have made it through. Remember one bust out of six and you were basically done. Needing a 4 on one dive which was not common to say the least. Think about that one jump out of six and you had a bad jump good bye, see you next year. No practice up and come back next week we can work on it bullshit, and rightfully so there are no redo's in AFF.

I couldnt agree with you more. I just wish the program had more of a mentor/Instuctor agenda. This way the new JM can assist, teach, learn, listen, and hone teaching skills, as well as in air skills. I sort of feel new AFFI's are being thrown to the wolves. I know this is general and some DZ's do this, so please do not take this as a shot at anyone or any specific DZ. Needless to say I was a fan of the AFFJM rating. I wish it would be considered. That is why I hope to attend the next AFF I/E meeting, I will sit and acquire as many facts as I can. I believe to compkain about a process and not get involved is fruitless. Thanks DSE

I am sorry to offend: I truly hate putting jump number requirements on anything. Just because I have seen guys flying with 200 jumps better than some with thousands. It is more about experience and time in the air. In the coach course we speak of Autonomus. The ability to perform a skill without having to think about the mechanics of it. I feel,(trust me I understand my opinnion doesnt mean much) that a AFF Instructor should have the skills to fly without thinking much about how they are flying. A good example is teaching a child to turn a bike at a corner. Youwould tell them to lean to the right, maybe shift weight, turn handle bars.. It is confusing and takes some practice. Once you understand how to ride a bike and I ask you to turn right at the corner, you would just do it without thinking about it. All I am trying to say is the AFF candidates taking the class should be able to turn at the corner without thinking about how to. We are currently teaching how to ride a bike inthe course. That Autonomous flight unfortunately comes through hundreds if not thousands of jumps and plenty of air time, in all disciplines. The AFF course should be there strictly to evaluate whether or not you have the skills. Air/Ground. That is why we call it an evaluation course. What I am seeing now is what can be referred to as AFF 101. Come here, pay this and we can teach you to pass an evaluation jump. Oh and if you get an unacceptable come back next week and we can try it again or maybe practice a few times first. Then lets throw that guy into real world AFF and watch him have to learn on the job. At whos expense? We are on the same side here, I am just trying to keep standards high, hence maintaining integrity in the rating and hopefully maintaining safety across the board.

I agree and can laugh at myself without thinking twice. Yes there are exceptions and some very good AFF instructors coming out of the current system. But I can honestly say I am disgusted how I see courses helping candidates get through instead of telling them they are not ready. I will not ellaborate but losing a student now a days has become accepted I guess. Not in my book. Can it happen yes should it "NO".

Hello Kim, It is funny reading your story, because I also took the course with Don in 1994. It was one of the most challenging things I have done to date. At the time I thought it to be almost absurd that anyone could pass the course the way it was set up. I was 2,2,2,1,2,3. I do not even think there was a 4 given in the course. Anyhow 12 took the class and at the end I know of 4 who made it through. The AFF JM rating when I first earned it was the Golden Chalace of ratings. It was a rating reserved for someone in the sport who was thorough on the ground as well as inthe air. The class was run to weed you out, to find your weakness, which Don was good at and expose it. Once exposed you were told what it was and to go work on it and we will see you in a year. I also agreed with the JM rating because it allowed you to ride reserve side or at least mentor under a seasoned AFFI, until you were ready to take on some upper level jumps. If I were to make the rules, I would require 1000 jumps, 12 Hours of Free Fall, Coach rating for at least 24 months with at least 40 coach jumps within the 24 months, and some sort of time in sport requirement. As it stands now you can be eligible in one year for AFF if you bang out the jumps and after 100 jumps you take the coach course. One year to AFF? Flame Away. I am not even going to get into what I think of the current setup.

Quite possibly the absolute dumbest thing I have ever seen in this sport. I will LMAO if I ever see someone using this thing on the mat..Better yet it should be driven into their eye socket. No offense to the 30 seconds that went into coming up with this thing.

Like a jackass I just wasted the better part of the evening reading this backwards, trying to figure out who was copying and pasting what. I now have a headache and really forgot what the hell you guys are talking about so thanks.