exnavykds

I didn't take it that way Dart. Sounded good to me

If my intent were to shut the guy down or grind an "ax" then it would have made sense to identify the DZ in the very first post. As I said before PM me and I'll be happy to tell you (any of you). But, unless you're willing to go there and see for yourself, to help persuade the DZO to update his equipment and training methods then naming him here would only look like a personal attack, don't you think? All that aside, I've learned a lot from the input here. Thank all of you very much. I appreciate the advice and the constructive criticism. -Kevin

How would you propose we accurately do that when the DZO doesn't submit incident reports? I could state that I witnessed three broken bones in a two week time span, (four days of jumping) but I'm sure you'd say that was a fluke or an anomaly, right? And do you really suggest we measure the safety of a DZ by its "death rate"? If this is the mentality of EXPERIENCED jumpers then it's no wonder DZ's like this one are allowed to continue. So what part makes you laugh the most? That students are jumping without AADs? That 240lb. students are jumping with 180 reserves? That the student rigs don't have BOC pockets? That students with 5 jumps are packing, unsupervised, for other students? That reserves are often 12 months or more between repacks? I admit, I have a pretty twisted sense of humor too but, try as I might, I just don't see it. The main division here seems to be between those who see the BSRs as "rules" and those that see them as a loose set of guidelines. That may be true, but its the result of the indifference shown from those few who seem to care more about a negligent DZO than the students he endangers. If your heart is truly in the right place, then act like the sky-god you claim to be and go check it out for yourself. Go observe a class of first jump students in action. Look over the equipment. Talk to one of the former instructors who now refuses to teach there. PM me and I'll give you the phone numbers of EXPERIENCED, D-licensed jumpers who have, like me, moved on to other DZ's, of riggers who have seen this DZO's work first-hand, or the FAA themselves who just completed an investigation of this drop zone based on "numerous complaints from multiple sources". But really, what does it matter? In your eyes I'm the villain here. I'm comfortable with that. I'd rather be the villain pushing for a safer dropzone than a complacent, indifferent up-jumper who's not concerned about the well-being of students. -Kevin

Amen to that brother!! LOL Care to count how many times in this thread I've already heard that?? -Kevin

I know this was directed at Jordan, but I gotta field this one. If anyone was just out "ax grinding" (be it myself, Jordan, or anyone else who has jumped at this DZ) wouldn't we have mentioned the name of the DZ right off the bat? I'm certainly not ashamed of my identity. If you are a licensed jumper with your own equipment you'd be in absolutely no danger at this DZ. The BSR violations all deal with students and student operations, with the exception being the drinking while packing reserves (just make sure your rig is already repacked and up to date BEFORE you arrive). If you're an up-jumper planning on jumping in Oklahoma and want to avoid this drop zone, PM me and I'll be more than glad to tell you. But, like I said, unless you're a student or in need of a reserve repack, you have nothing to fear. -Kevin

Can any of you old salts refer me to a specific list or post that states what changes, modifications and clarifications have been made from the '05 SIM to the new '06 SIM? For example, I've been told that the A-license requirement of three group dives has been increased to five group dives (of two or more jumpers). Does USPA publish a list of changes? If so, where can this list be found? Thanks, in advance, for your help and/or input. -Kevin

Wonderful drop zone, possibly the best in Oklahoma. Spacious packing area, friendly people, helpful staff.

Kathleen, what you're feeling is perfectly normal. I think I had more anxiety about my first freefall than I did about my first jump. Its the mental "thing" of no longer being attached to the airplane, the knowledge that nothing is going to happen unless you make it happen. If you weren't nervous you'd be crazy. lol Just listen to what your instructors tell you, focus on what you have to do and get 'er done. Remember that hundreds before you have safely done what you're about to do, and once you do it you'll really be a "skydiver" and not just a "parachutist"

Actually Sparky, if you take the thread in context, I was asked what kind of rules and regs were being violated. I listed a few, certainly not all, without giving any specifics about the nature of the violations. Nice try though. This is a typical company-line response. Vilify the witness and take the attention off the accused. Sparky, you'd make a good trial lawyer. I suppose now, in self-defense, I'd have to call to the stand 20 or so eye witnesses to verify my testimony? LOL I think we're missing the point here. The question is, what actions, if any, should be taken. This is not about putting a DZ out of business, its about correcting a problem and making our sport safer. If its acceptable for a DZ to violate BSRs then lets eliminate the word "rule" which implies that they are set forth by some authority for the purpose of being followed. Lets call them BSGs (basic safety guidelines) or, better yet, BSSs (basic safety suggestions).

BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations. Again, speaking up for a DZO with little or no facts to back up your assumptions. One pilot, one jump master, two students, one experienced jumper, all in the same plane - who is manning the communications on the ground?! No one, no whuffo, no spouse, no student. Every warm body on the DZ is in the plane.

You seem pretty quick to come to the defense of a DZO with very few, if any, facts to back up your assumptions. When you have a DZ that is conducting first jump courses with a total of TWO staff members present, one of which is the chief instructor/S&TA/pilot and the other is the jumpmaster, who do you think is available to man the radio? (Much less conduct radio or some other form of ground communication with the students while landing) Looking over the posts, there seems to be about a 70/30 split here, with 70% saying something needs to be done, and 30% saying ignore it or take your business elsewhere.

Yes but its not manned. They have four or five Sentinel AAD's shared between approx. 15 student rigs. Some of the student rigs are not equiped to install an AAD. The AAD's are NEVER used on student rigs until the student reaches freefall status (static line course) which would normally be their 5th jump. For example, a student with an exit weight of 230lbs, jumping a 270 sq ft canopy with a 180 sq ft reserve. Leg pulls with vinyl pouches. Unsupervised students packing for other students.

I'm not sure I'm clear on how you can make the assumption that I'm over reacting since, up to this point, we are talking in hypothetical generalities.

If we are dealing with ONLY the violations I witnessed first hand, we can start with these... BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations. BSR section K, item 2.d states that all students are to be equipped with a functional automatic activation device (AAD) that meets manufacturer’s recommended service schedule (this is also mandated in FAA regulations, section 105.43.c). BSR section K, item 2.f states that a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student’s weight be provided. BSR section K, item 2.g states that a freefall student must be equipped with a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute. FAA regulations, section 65.111 clearly sets forth the criteria as to who can and cannot pack a main parachute. FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use.

Thanks for the note Andy, I may PM HooknSwoop anyway, but it should be noted that the DZ in question is NOT in Texas. Still, he may have some good advice for me.

No, clouds aren't the issue here.

Thanks for the helpful information. It should be noted that the DZO that got pissed off IS the S&TA.

I'm in a spot and not really sure what, if anything, I need to do. I was wondering if anyone here has been to a dropzone where BSRs and FAA regs (major ones) were being violated and what did you do (?). Approaching the DZO didn't do anything but piss him off.

An outstanding dropzone with a top-notch staff, plenty of padded, indoor packing room, a well stocked pro-shop, a snack bar, and an atmosphere thats fun, friendly, and safe.

I wanted to thank everyone for their posts. You've given me some great ideas to present to our S&TA. In answer to the question about the type of injuries, in the last six weeks, out of approx. 50 student jumps - two twisted ankles and three broken legs. I don't think wing loading is part of the problem because two of the injured students had exit weights between 220 - 230 and they were jumping 360 canopies. Another had an exit weight of between 200 and 210 and he was jumping a 270ft canopy. It should be noted that the canopies are F111 and rather old. Of the three worst injuries (broken legs), one had his feet together but not his knees (in spite of the radio command to keep your feet AND knees together), one did a down-wind landing (inspite of instruction otherwise) and the third was on his second jump, without constant radio control, and flared at about 20 ft. At this rate, approx. 10% of our students leave the DZ with injuries (6% serious injuries). Is this unusually high for a small DZ?

Recently, we've had a rash of landing injuries on first jump students (static line). We're a small drop zone with helmet radios for students. We teach PLF's (of course) but encourage flared, stand-up landings for students who are not landing off. Radio works well but different students have different reaction times to flare commands. I was wondering if forgoing the flared landings and sticking with PLF's is something we should consider, at least for a student's first few jumps (?). I've also heard that some DZ's are teaching slide landings. I'd be grateful for any input or advice that I can take to our S & TA. - Kevin