Emma

As I said, it will up the average a little, but Ron - are you saying that you DID do the skydiving for them? The other 3 on your team would still have had to have done pretty well. But even a good intermediate team with an Airspeed or Majik coach in one of the slots isn't going to move from an 8 point average to an 18 point average. You still have to fly your own slot. If we assume the player coach is a 'perfect' skydiver who never brainlocks or makes a mistake, he or she is still only 25% of the team. In the UK junior and intermediate teams (we have junior, intermediate and senior classes) are allowed one 'wild card'. I guess this equates to your player coach. The wild card can have as many jumps and as much experience as you like, as long as the other 3 have under a specified number of jumps when they register at the start of the season. The idea is that this will help less experienced teams train and learn how to do the formations - not that it will give them an unfair advantage and 'buy' them medals. However, just as in the US, we do have divergent opinions on the fairness of that. I view the existence of classes below Open (or below senior) as a way to encourage less experienced jumpers to compete, and get up to the real competition, which is the Open class. In the UK we do not always 'pay' the wild card but it does happen in some teams - generally if the wild card is actually coaching the team rather than just competing with them. The regulations based on jump numbers now seem less relevant of course, because tunnel time doesn't count in the restrictions. This has given rise to quite a lively debate in the UK. Should we log tunnel time and should it count on your 'experience' level? I don't know. Probably. The practical aspects of introducing this seem minimal so why not? Does it? Or is that your perception? Lower classes in the UK have fewer blocks to learn and perfect, and with slot switches and mirrors in the higher classes, that can be quite intimidating for lower time jumpers, with or without a player coach on their team. S/he can't do all the thinking and training for them. My team jumps intermediate (your Advanced) in the UK and we have a wild card. We wondered about doing Senior (Open) because that is our eventual goal, if not as a team then as individuals, but with the rest of us averaging about 500 jumps each, we decided it was too much of a brain meltdown issue to learn all the blocks in the pool in one season. I did a junior team last year, my first year in skydiving, and to be honest, I don't think leaping straight to Open this year would have been the best path for me to take. If choosing to jump at Intermediate level helps us to medal then great, but this isn't the reason we chose to. For me it's just a route to Open where the real competition starts. By your reasoning we could be 'robbing' other teams who don't have a wild card? But we don't pay him, and every other team has the same opportunity to pick up a wild card if they want. We all train our asses off and have had to make certain individual sacrifices of a financial and time nature to do so. It's hard work for everyone on the team - our wild card is not doing it for us. When we trained in the States we entered AAA and jumped new blocks for the first time just to get a taste for them. Funnily enough we didn't medal but we did it for the experience of trying out the new blocks which we will be doing next year. But it's commonly accepted that having more to remember in a skydive in terms of the sequence will have a negative impact on performance. The mental side of the sport (and by that I mean just remembering the damn skydive!) benefits from having classes with different requirements and different formations. With less to learn and remember in the lower classes, lower time jumpers can focus on getting the maximum performance in the blocks they do have to do. It is an interesting debate however, isn't it? I don't think it's so different in the UK from the US and it might benefit your discussion to consider the way things work outside the US. I was just surprised that there was so much bad feeling about it over here in the US. I had wrongly assumed there was more of a free market approach here, fewer restrictions on classes you enter and, because it's a bigger sport in the States, more acceptance that competition is for the betterment of the sport and the achievement of personal goals, rather than pretty medals. I guess not. Emma

Wow...I had no idea this was the real scene behind 4way in the US! Not being a US jumper, I can only make pretty general comments, but from an outsider's viewpoint this whole thread seems pretty sad. Who gives a sh*t if a team has hired a player coach? It's their money, no matter how they came about it. Surely a player coach may up the average a little but not to the point where s/he's doing the skydiving for the other 3 team members?! What a laughable concept. Or does this magical player coach somehow herd up the other 3 like some skydiving sheepdog of sorts? Hmmm. If people want to improve their skydiving let them choose how they do it. It's surely not all about medals, is it? Unless you are a serious top team in Open...in fact, f*ck it, even IF you are a top team in Open...4way is about improving your skydiving, having a great time with your friends and doing the best you can. Or have I missed something? Seems to me where there is success of any sort, there are always jealous people ready to bitch. Classy. Not. Good luck to all the teams competing at the US Nationals this year - I hope you all do your personal bests.

I would be on the first plane over if I could find a flight from the UK in July or August for less than £700!!!!! WTF???? What's all that about eh? If anyone has any cheap flight tips please feel free to share them .... Emma

Not very realistic though, most skydivers leave their kit at the dz if there's somewhere it can be left locked up. In fact I have left my own kit in the club room at the dz in question on multiple occasions. I guess I won't next time I jump there though. You shouldn't have to worry about sabotage. Absolutely unbelievable that someone would do something like this. Condolences to his family and friends and everyone who works at Hib, who are undoubtedly having a tough time at the moment.

Hmm, I admit that some of his other questions sound rather naive. However, I still think you HAVE to give newbies the benefit of the doubt. What is better - to totally put someone off the sport because you've refused to take their supposedly 'dumb' questions seriously, or to risk making YOURSELF look a little dumb by responding as best as you can? I know what I prefer... Re. his canopy swooping question, for all you skygods out there - canaopy colour CAN make a difference, certainly to pack volume - and while you and I might know from experience that it won't actually affect flight characteristics, black does get hotter than white, especially if you jump somewhere like AZ ... I think you should maybe cut the guy some slack (especially if he is really as ugly and unattractive to women as he says!). Oh and yes, I do have a bf, but thanks for asking Emma

Jesus, give the guy a break, he sounds like a newbie with a genuine worry. Okay, maybe some of his questions sound stupid to us because we know that skydiving really is a warm and accepting community that (generally!) doesn't judge people based on preferences, sexually or otherwise... However, Hugh sounds like he's been in his team for a while (six months?) - looks like he isn't about to throw in the towel because of misplaced homophobia, he just needs some advice on how to handle it. Hugh - don't let this abuse put you off our wonderful sport. If I were you I'd ask your friend outright if he has an opinion on homosexuality - if he is a cool guy (gay OR straight - and MOST skydivers are cool ) - he will tell you the deal. If not, maybe you would be more comfortable on another team - every team has a diferent dynamic and it sounds to me like you and your other buddies have a more macho approach than your 'sensitive' friend. And by the way, if I had a cent for every time I heard some 'experienced' skydiver take the piss out of a less experienced newbie (experience meaning time in the sport, not just jump numbers), I'd be a rich woman. Don't rush to criticise someone who is just starting out - remember how YOU felt when things were strange and new to YOU. Cheers, Emma

Do lots of stretching for a few weeks before you get in the tunnel, that helps...Also probably expect to wear a bit more lead than usual, especially if the weather is cold cos it goes faster... My arms always get tired, have tried preparing with pressups but still end up f*cked after an hour or so...Someone once told me you can tape a pound of lead onto your wrists if you are getting floaty hands, that is sposed to help, although I found it a bit weird... Emma

Thanks Colin, was a fun meet was it not? See you at the Nationals then I guess? :) Emma

Congrats honey...I know this aint my usual forum but i thought I'd pop by and see what you were up to! Good times it would seem...Have fun and be safe x

Gee, you're a funny guy...I'd forgotten what an ascerbic wit you have, dearest...

Ok, well, I wouldn't call that trolling, I'd call it flooding or spamming...but who cares about the semantics really eh? Looks like we are BOTH bored and have nothing better to do than argue the finer points of internet etiquette! LOL

Hmmm...but I could swear you said, 'In this case the poster, thought it would be timely to add some humor/off topic banter to the forum, and by doing so thus became a "troll". ' ...er...ok, so you AREN'T saying this is a troll then? Or ARE you? Off-topic is not the same as a troll. And humour does not equal 'troll' either! Trolls are intended to deceive... Why do you think the post is silly anyway? Don't you think she makes some relevant points in the way she pokes fun at bigway BS politics?

Sorry, did not realise 'General Skydiving Discussions' had such rigid topic criteria! Oops... My mistake... Mind you, makes a change from the days in the past where anyone said anything a little 'iffy' and they were besieged by cries of 'take that sh*t to .rec!' I think this post IS relevant for 'general skydiving discussions' myself - in fact, satire is an effective vehicle for raising salient and/ or disturbing issues, wouldn't you say? The salient issues here, are, of course, the covert politics which operate around major bigways. Doesn't that fit the topic interest of this forum rather well? I mean, every other specific 'skydiving' subject already has another forum - aint this fairly general? Real 'trolls' are supposed to get people wound up and this wasn't intended that way so you can't call it a troll...

Thanks Will..although I thought it was my massive BUTT that you always liked to point out to passing strangers?

'other than what is typical and desired by the moderators and/or owner of the board' Sorry, I thought a humorous and ironic post would be seen as desirable? 'Trolls' are usually disguised and intended to be taken seriously so as to wind people up. I don't think this was. Unless you have a very limited sense of humour and take everything VERY SERIOUSLY. No-one was actually wound up by this? Shouting 'troll' when something is obviously not meant to be serious is hardly a great coup, is it? Emma

Haaa...that one has me laughing at my (very dull) desk! Nice one Blotdiva..although it seems your highly refined sense of irony has been entirely bypassed by some. I thought the definition of a 'troll' was when it was *meant* to sound like she meant it? Emma

Any DZ.com people going to be there 9th - 14th June? I'm paying it a fun-jumping visit...

Hey Spin...what happened to SkyCoq? So we are definitely on for the tunnel then eh? SCHWEEET!!! Can't wait, you are gonna be on FIRE after all this tunnel time man! Emma

Shoe Goo is an amazing thing - even more amazing, it's illegal in the UK. Too many school children and tramps sniffing it apparently. There is a huge black market opportunity here...

Hi Spike, Not many junior teams bother to train the B slot randoms. Maybe the O and J as you might find quicker builds. If you are planning 200 training jumps then maybe find the time, but otherwise I wouldn't sweat it...

Michele - don't worry about the booties, it shouldn't take you more than 5 jumps to get the hang of them. They feel a bit weird at first because they give you more lift (ie power) on your lower legs but it's like anything - once you get used to them you won't notice them, other than that you can track, turn and stop better. I used to have a crappy old Bev Suit (not the fault of Bev suits, it was just very old!) with booties sewn on afterwards by my well-meaning but not entirely superb rigger (great for RIGS, but not booties, so it would appear). I did some tunnel drills where you try x, y and z moves with the booties, as normal, and then repeat taking the booties off. My coach looked pretty surprised to see it made no damn difference to me when I took them off, so crap were my booties. In fact they have been referred to as 'flippers' or 'shoe lace covers' ever since. Then, I got my Tony suit with MEGA booties. The 4way video is a sight to behold. I am up, down, forwards, backwards, bobbing around all over the place. Felt like someone had given me a new body that I just couldn't control... But after 2 or 3 jumps with gritted teeth and cursing and spitting into my fullface, I got used to it. You will. They actually give you a lot more range, not just for forward movement and tracking, but also for slow fall, if you turn your ankles slightly inwards, toes outwards, it creates lift as they become like mini sails....V handy if someone goes underneath your legs unplanned... Anyway - don't be afraid of them. There is no need for you to do anything especially dangerous just because of booites. It's like, say, driving a 3 litre engine car after an 800cc Mini; you try the accelerator, realise there's a lot of oomph, and lay off the gas a little. But when you want to go, and you have an open road... yeah baby! However do get someone who knows about these things to check the fit regardless. You should lie on the floor in your standard body position and feel alittle tension in the toes. Sometimes they make the 'z' measurement too small (ie crotch to neck) which can make the booties pull and restrict your movement too much. This can cause 'chipping'. You can cut the collar at the back of the neck if it's really a problem..or send it back and tell 'em to sort it! Have fun and make sure you do some tracking dives in your bootie suit, it ROCKS! But be prepared to go a lot faster than you've been used to and look where you're going. Emma

Or alternatively: The British women's 4way team, VMax, are also going to be there to take a crack at the gold, you could visit their website, http://www.vmax.org.uk and order one of their fabulously sexy and cool T-shirts and support them in THEIR quest for gold. VMax kick ass...and all this even with the crappy British weather - that's dedication! (And they even find time to do free roadshows!) Cheers, Emma

Make sure you have a plan before you exit in case something goes awry like it did with you...Ideally try and compensate in advance with lead/ slightly baggier clothing....anticipation is a handy skill to develop in regard to modifying fallrates. E

THAT comment was cruel and uncalled for! 9 days...pah... :(((( Hey do you know if ASPD are doing any bigway camps this year in AZ? I've quit my job and kind of planning on a skydiving extravaganza for the end of the year...I feel there is a ticket to Phoenix out there somewhere with my name on it....

But does it answer the QUESTION??? Hee hee I have a bee in my bonnet over WARP...so damned old-fashioned...so do excuse me!