marcoT

Ciao jf951 , thank you to post the Atmonauti video with the fly with the porter of year 1999 ! To answer your question , yes the way to fly with the plane very fast horizontally is use 100% the tecnique Atmonauti . I read in the post someone talk about Trace/Tracing .... well, I can tell them for sure than in 1999 when we was fly Amonauti with the airplane (with doc too) , even the word "Trace" was not existing !!! ... Is another evident attempt of use the Technique Atmonauti with other names , trying someone do not reconnue Atmonauti and put on it his definition ! Any way history is too clear in the matter .... Regarding the second question , the propeller was in "beta" ... the parameters of speeds components of the fly, was around 150 km/h of vertical speed , and around 200 km/h of horizontal speed (indicatively) .... The more amazing thing of this flyghts , was the noise of the plane engine during all the flight .... A body free real fly experience with the airplane thanks the technique Atmonauti .

Thank you for your post , appreciated …. Actually I don’t want to change any law , I have just try to communicate something ….. As I was write in that thread ( quote : “…. This are just easy Aerodynamics concepts … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concepts to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … “ ) , was an attempt to communicate this thing , and I consider a shame that for some imperfection or something that can be improve , you want put all the matter in the trash …. I will be more for catch the concept , if it is good , and help to improve the system in case there are some bugs , but this is just my opinion …. I have never impose this sketchs as new science ... they was indicative for skydivers try to communicate them , this new interesting thing compared with other existing things . that’s it …. I’m just happy that now a lot and always more enjoy atmo … I think also correct and important , define it as it was since the beginning : Atmonauti or of course Atmonaut in English , that just mean Atmosphere Navigators ( no so bad definition I think ) , this also to avoid confusion , especially now with a lot of definitions of the same thing …. Hoping you can understand my point of view , I confirm myself open to all the critiques , knowing very well do not be perfect , with the unique aim to improve. Ciao and thanks again

With the aim to try to be positive and concrete in the debate , and hoping that this can help mchamp’s request , here some considerations for clarify some points that I consider very important specially for who have less experience : 1) Is important to define the different things with their correct definitions , especially when they are so different to involve different physic effects : a. “Resistence” physic effect for the TRACKING always exist and teach from the AFF ; b. “Lift” physic effect for the ATMONAUTI . This first of all to avoid confusion . Who have tried , know exactly the airflow on the body is different , the sensation is different and last but not least the technique to move and regulate is completely different …. So why call this two different things with the same TRACKING definition ? Confusion don’t help the beginners that try to understand how the things work. 2) Another important consideration remarking the importance to correct define the different things , regard the safety in matter of “directions” . Since it has been taught in the AFF, and in the normal tracking jumps that have always been done , the track is performed looking in front in the direction towards you are going! In the atmonauti fly , flying in front, the body assume an angle of attack with the head placed towards the ground and the visual looking backwards. This creates a prospective of the visual that is upside down (sky down and earth up) and a vision of the field exactly OPPOSITE of the direction where we are going. And more angles of asset we assume, more opposite and far will be in prospective the visual of the ground . This condition, especially for the beginners, can create a bit of difficulties on orienteering, in particular if you are not informed on this problematic, and if you don’t take other visual points of reference in order to guarantee the respect of the direction. Is important to remember the dangers of groups that can involuntary change flight trajectories towards other group. Is for this reason that we are particularly sensible to do not mix track with the atmonauti. Encourage people to be more efficient by adding “angles” and with the head that watch behind (and who doesn’t want to be more efficient), saying that this technique is tracking, and without saying as the first thing “be careful to the visual of the opposite verse in which you are going”, is really incorrect and create a potential condition of danger. To confuse the track with atmonauti without emphasize this fundamental aspect is a mistake for which one should take the responsibility of a confuse and incomplete information! 3) Learn the Atmonauti Technique from the start allows to play in groups since the beginning learning fast the REAL FLY in many orientation ( front , back etc.) , in different angles , speeds and directions …. The consequence of this correct progression is to know automatically how to keep and control the head down ! But also acquire a very good sensibility in the element precious for any kind of other “freefall” disciplines , “Fly with wing suit” discipline , and of course base jump discipline. 4) Actually Atmonauti is a lot more easy than Freefly so that for the beginners is more easy to learn and start play in the groups since the beginning. From the point of view of the logic , I think is more indicate an “easier” thing for a beginners instead the more “difficult” one …. Especially if in automatic arrive also that one more hard …. 5) Somebody try to limit Atmonauti saying it is just one speed or one angle … do not believe them ! so to avoid confusion about the positions, I rember that Atmonauti is not just one angle, or just one speed , or just one fixed body position (Check also the Atmonauti videos on the net , you will see a big variety of this parameters). Is one complete new technique for use the body as a wing obtain lift and perform a real fly . Positions speed and angles can be very various . But images can make it clear better than words , so in the first attach some example of this varaiety of positions perform from 1998 when was existing only the traditional track visible in the second attach take from some magazine and videos of beginning 2000 …. Necessary to compared to understand what we are talking and also to remaining on the facts. 6) The system imply also that in every atmo flight, there is a “navigator”, a person who is responsible to keep the flight plan, respects the directions planned, linear or not, set the angle or the angles of flight, regulate the speed. He is responsible for all the group and is primarily in charge to set these parameters, and above all to be concentrate to respect the direction. No matter if the group is of two or twenty people, there is always a person with this duty and responsibility. 7) The atmonauti Fly as we know, has many variation and have many different typologies of performances and games, from freestyle to formations, atmo games (Race, ARW, etc), Airshow with smoke … In all these circumstances it’s fundamental the issue of the direction. But is in the smaller group with acrobatic atmo games of freestyle and freefly, or in ARW2 or ARW4 (atmo relative work), that is more important to pay attention to the direction. In effect being more focused in the performance is easier to distract and change direction without realize, especially in the first training jumps. Try always to keep in mind this factor. With experience and constant attention on this particular, the precision of the navigation will be always more fine, until arrive to be more and more an automatism. Other consideration regarding exit order : - exit as a first group with a short in spot: only if the navigator is expert and can guarantee safely the direction, after the exit the trajectory of the direction will be opened with a minimum of 45° (right or left) respect the axe of dropping. Is not admitted an involuntary change of direction towards the axe of dropping of the other vertical groups. - Exit as the last group: is the more safety condition, especially to start with and when you don’t have much experience yet. After the exit make a 90° (right or left) and through the dive, make another 90° in the same direction . - Exit as an intermediate group: make a clear 90° (right or left) right after the exit respect the axe of dropping. If during the flight you go away too much respect the dz, make and ulterior 90° (right or left). And again : Is important to have a previous briefing with the plane pilot, in order to know the daily axe of dropping in relation of altitude winds/dropzone policy and to be informed if this will be changed. In any case the visual contact with the ground is the primary condition to respect the flight plan, and the support of the gps can add useful information to manage the flight. If for any reason during the flight you find yourself with a lot of distance in relation of the landing area, open the canopy at higher altitudes (normally can be enough 1000 ft or less , than normal ) in order to be able to come back or anyway have more time to evaluate alternative safety landing areas . Valuation of the wind on the ground, in order to calculate the more indicate place where to be with the canopy open and be able to get back easily to the landing area. If other groups are making navigations, coordinate the different directions taking into consideration also the direction and intensity of the wind from open canopy till the landing,bI mean ground coordination with the other group before get on the plane : “flight plan”! Valuation of the visibility with the ground to decide, on the base of the navigator’s experience, if the parameters of the direction can be respected safely. To know the ground conformation and have points of references in the various cardinal points, as an aid to the navigation, keeping into consideration that the visuals of the navigator is opposite to the sense of flight. Check at open canopy and debriefing (also with the analysis of the gps traces), on the effective respect of the flight plan, finding the factors that can be make the navigation better and always more precise. Is important to focus on few particulars as: use of head and torso for the movements, legs and arms to regulate the speed. If you fly in group is important to understand to fly at head level, this will help you to fly in the correct body position. Start with front first and try to remain on top of the formation, use the base as a point of reference to practice your movements and always remain in visual contact. Anyone that has any doubt or questions to make on these topic, is welcome for more explanations. Have fun with atmosphere navigations.

Back in dz.com after long time… I see that the eternal discussion still goes on , with usual sarcastic people, but with a lot more people have really clear the true . I really don’t want follow you in this discussion but for the correct of the information for the people that read , I just want to say again few things : You can’t change history ! Atmonauti was presented in 2000 and before was existing only traditional tracking and the freefly was 99,9% vertical stuff and a bit of flock ( still hi vertical speed) ! I remind that tracking was only flat, with a “rabbit” on the back and people following on their belly from behind, using rw technique to make the regulation, atmonauti introduced a new set up with head level and with the people flying on their front flying forward completely opposite of traditional track, with a new body position allowing the air to hit from the head and the possibility to have the body more relax and open a new variety of games. Who have try in the past to say that Atmonauti was nothing new , NEVER demonstrate this words with easy fact as videos, pictures , articles etc … just word … just nothing . At reverse we are full of historic documents , pictures, articles and videos (at disposition to everybody that wants ) , where you can see all the big names of freefly who track in the traditional way … very far away from what they are doing now . The question is : why all this guys ( all the best flyer in the world of that time ) have modify their way to track only after 2000 ??? May be they have learn a new technique after 2000 ? And I tell you more : Atmonauti was not just new , but also a real revolution respect what was existing before , so much to influence later also other discipline as the base jump and the wing suit …. Check the video of this disciplines before and after 2000 … you will see clear differences ! You guys are not very well informed about the fact Atmonauti is not just a funny name : In 2003 Atmonauti enter in FAI rules as new orientation !!! … and was also one of the compulsory move of freeflying and freestyle World competiton …. In 2009 The Atmonauti discipline is enter in the South Africa federation rules and in the Nationals competitions along with rw and freefly …. Actually other federation are evaluating the same thing ….. Austalian flyers in 2010 run an Atmonauti World Record attempt with FAI judges for the first time …… You are not also very informed about the huge variety of speeds and angles that since 2000 we have perform in all the thousands of flights done around the world : a part the Atmoanuti formations in contact and no contact , a part the Atmonauti relative work in two and in four way , the Airshows with smoke very fast , In 1999 we have fly side to the airplane from the exit to break-off with the Atmonauti technique in a very high horizontal speed , completely new free style and free-fly performed in World competitions from 2000 to 2003 with big variety of speeds , angles , and body shapes with also many complex maneuvers in it ; tandem atmonauti every time different in speeds and angles , atmonauti feet first more steeper , flight with big curves with change of speeds and angles …. For who want to verify can find all this videos and pictures on www.atmonauti.com . Is right to inform , especially the young skydiver , that things as “tracking” complex dock formations , feet first , tandem without drog slower than 200 km/h, or again fly side by side with the airplane with total and perfect control very fast horizontally , was just considerate IMPOSSIBLE !!! With the new revolutionary Atmonauti technique , all this was become possible …. Just facts ! If You want to give tips to the people I think is correct to know the things a bit better ….. Regarding Filippo Fabbi that you say, is just one of the numerous person up-indicate that have start to use this technique later that 2000 but incorrectly calling with different name … watch Willing to Fly (Norman Kent vieo) , you will see Fabbi track in a super traditional way … History is important if you want to make correct information . I’m full of material , at disposition to everybody , where we can see all this peoples now using the new thecnique Atmonauti and calling with different names ,who were tracking in the really traditional way …. A lot of world magazines , videos , boogies , pictures , skydiving advertising , skydiving book …. easy Thousands of peoples in the world know exactly the difference between atmonauti and tracking … thousands know that Atmonauti is not just one speed and one angle , they have watch many time the videos with all the varaiety of speed and angles performed since 2000 ; thousands of people they was jumping before 2000 and they know perfectly what was tracking and freefly before 2000 ; even federations are evaluating the positivity of this new discipline , some have already done ; thousands of people don’t believe any more who say that atmonauti is just tracking … thousands of people verify the information and immediately understand where is the true ! Is just a question of time but always more and more peoples will discover the huge potentiality of the technique Atmonauti , especially the more younger and inexperienced skydiver , learning fast a technique that permit them to fly in the real meaning of the word , create real LIFT ( never existing in skydiving before Atmonauti) , in all the speeds and angles , with total control for playing free or docs and relative work …. And without expensive 1-o-1 . All the our guys here when they have 300 jumps , they will fly atmonauti in front and back and easy keep and control the basic of the head down …. with ZERO one-o-one !!!! … Just Atmonauti done in the correct and complete way , starting to play with the group from the beginning , with detailed breafing and debreafing ! This is the reality that all this guys enjoy every days, and that become more and more stronger around the world . In these places the process is really start and actually very difficult to be stopped …more easy than other will see that the system works and adopt it …. You can do what you want and I really don’t care , but hide all this to young skydiver is a really bad operation for the sport and for sure don’t help their progression …. I think when they will realize this , they will be not so happy . Personally I think that who do this , write clearly his name in history in the list of the person that have try to slow down this amazing process of evolution of humanity : The Real Human Fly easy and accessible to everybody. I really don’t know if you will be able to change all this ….. good luck and all the best. Ciao

Hi PhreeZone , thanks for your post . Tell me if I have correctly understand : you say that , placing the two bodies with an angle , the tandem will present more surface to the relative wind coming from below , more than respect the normal flat position , enough to slow down the fall rate at the speed that I have indicate of almost 180 km/h (110 ml/h ) . I’m not sure about this . If you consider the same tandem caratteristics ( same weight and same persons ) , I think that the two bodies acting their double weight on the same single surface , deflecting the air coming from below , they will increase the speed almost at the same terminal vertical velocity in both case flat and with angle . You also compare this with tandem made by little and light pilot , with little and light passenger , but is not really my case . I weight 84 kg and my passenger are normally from 60 to 80 kg . I have almost 600 tandem-atmonauti made it all with normal passenger (99 % they do really well , the rest 1% can improve) . The analysis of the data of this flights indicate medially a range of vertical speed between 170 and 190 km /h . Our explanation of this is that the pilot atmonauti , as soon as he exit from the plane, he present the bodies on the horizontal relative wind (create by the airplane speed ) with a “wing shape”, anticipating the passenger with the head pointed down and forward , creating a wing “bord of attack“ and start to regulate the angle of attack . In practice in this way , the airflow on the two bodies , is not anymore just from below , but from the head to the feet of this double human wing , that start to be alimented and start to produce a certain amount of lift . With this new condition , the double weight do not act only in the vertical gravity power , but become the “wing load” as a kinetic energy of the wing performance . To check the relative wind of the body coming from the head and not anymore just from below , observe the ribbon on the feet of this tandem atmo of this attached pics : Is clearly evident the relative wind is coming from the head to the feet . The body act as a wing and the lift force generated , avoid the increasing of the vertical speed , keep this relatively low (110 ml/h) respect the terminal velocity of the two bodies falling flat without drogue. In this picture we observe a passenger not to light (80 kg) , flying for the first time in atmo with a good aerodynamic position. From the side view we can observe the ribbon that show an approximate angle of attack of 10°-15° create with a body angle asset of approximately 25-30° respect the horizon. From the projection of the ribbon we can assume a very fast horizontal speed From the position of the atmonauts around the tandem , flying almost as in a medium atmo flights , we can assume a slow vertical speed (110 miles/h … very unusual for a pretty heavy tandem like this ). You say : I can fly head up with relative workers, does that mean I am generating lift in a bootie or knee fly position? Well , this may be is not a correct comparation , in freefall , of course the physic phenomenon is the resistance (the drag) . You say : “Seeing the rig move really means nothing.” Well , in reality is not correct to say that the rig just “move” : the rig goes constantly up and forward ! So you are free to think that this are not a scientific evidence , but the fact is that some concrete “physic phenomenon” happen there ; we think is the lift , and is one of the arguments support our theory … not the only one (see other precedent post). In effect somebody have insist to motivate this fact , with loose harness , and air pass true the body and the rig … ignoring every time to explicate why the rig not only go up , but he go also FORWARD . We still waiting a serious analysis of this phenomenon that demonstrate the possible reasons different from lift .

About the answer “over defensive” I just think to have only ask to detail and prove affirmations and to avoid the offence … I ask also to detail with concrete facts , the continues generic affirmation that atmonauti contain many “erroneous aerodynamic principals”. I have also demonstrate that , until now , the unique real “erroneous aerodynamic principals” is the affirmation of somebody say A0A=0lift Any way , trying to better understand what you mean , can you please detail what part of my post are “over defensive” ? You say : “You can't treat every critical post as "trashing atmonauti" though” I have never treat EVERY critical post as “trashing atmonauti” ! I have always criticise only the offense and ridiculizations as “trashing atmonauti” …. as already said in the LouDiamond answer. As you can see very well , Me or Gigliola , or Vins , or Marco Ciocca have always answer all the serious critique with long explanations , videos , pictures etc. Say that we not accept the critique it’s look like a paradox to me . Is clear that for “critique” I mean the concrete one on the arguments , not the generic critique as for examples : “atmonauti contain many erroneous aerodynamic principals”. Also you in effect when you say : “When Mciocca or Vins post the diagram of a skydiver with some wind lines around him, it is not scientific evidence of physics and aerodynamics” , you are pretty generic talking about “some line around him” (let’s detail) …. And any way this lines are to explicate with examples the atmonauti technique that just apply aerodynamics (without modify nothing of this science) at human bodies . Is not exact say that this lines “are not scientific evidence of physics and aerodynamics” … they have another up described function . (I see , in meanwhile I write your answer, a good post of PilotDave about this argument ; I will answer in detail after this) You say : “If posting a picture of a skydiver doing atmonauti with a floating rig counts as scientific evidence, then many newspaper tabloids would have won Nobel prizes” Well , in reality is not correct to say that the rig “floating” : the rig goes up and forward ! So you are free to think that this are not a scientific evidence , but the fact is that some concrete “physic phenomenon” happen there ; we think is the lift , and is one of the arguments support our theory … not the only one (see post n.63). In effect in the closed tread , somebody have insist to motivate this fact , with loose harness , and air pass true the body and the rig … ignoring every time to explicate why the rig not only go up , but he go also FORWARD . We still waiting a serious analysis of this phenomenon that demonstrate the possible reasons different from lift . You say : “Although there have been some who have stepped over the lines from criticism and debate to bashing and personal attacks, remember that it takes two to tango. Threads have been locked from your other advocates doing the same thing.” You force the concepts here . I repeat , We have not do or debate about personal attack (can you indicate the post where we have make personal attack ? ) , we have just remind many time to avoid this ,and we have always answer to the criticism . Regarding the closing atmonauti thread , I really do not understand what you say here … first of all the other person are not my “advocates” but peoples that condivide my same passion . About what you say that the thread was close because they ware saying the same thing , I invite to read back both the closed forum : - The first titled “interesting debate on angled flight on face book” was closed after my last post where I was clearly demonstrating that the person who was accusing me during all the thread to have censored him , ware just FALSE affirmation demonstrate with the facts. - The second titled “Atmo question” was closed in a situation where someone , who affirm since the beginning and in a definitive way that human can not generate lift , at the end they admit : lift is possible but only in a minimum way … something change? The same person who had no more support of their attack, start to create fake account and play on a dirty level (if you want to know more about this fell free to PM me). If we synthesize this, it looks as a confirm that human lift is possible, confirming the atmo theory … and someone on this last closed thread (who evidently knows very well aerodynamics) have mathematically demonstrate a kind of pretty significative amount of lift . Check it out. You say : “You have called atmonauti part of an evolution. If you believe this, then you must also believe that the evolution is not complete, the sport is still evolving” Is exactly what I thing and what I say from years … as already say from 2000 I think this is just a beginning ! I hope you were not convince of the reverse. You say : “That is how science works. When one scientist thinks he's figured something out, another scientific peer can review it and say, "well hey... what about this? This wouldn't work in X situation, etc" This useful observation allows the original scientist to revise his work to further perfect and finalize his theory. “ And this is exactly what will be nice that happen ! But until now unfortunately nobodies have say something like : “well hey... what about this? This wouldn't work in X situation, etc” … yes will be very nice . I’m sure this is the way . We are ready and waiting for this. You say : “I'd recommend ignoring the ignorant "eurotrash" comments and maybe listen a little more to what your critics are pointing out instead of just dismissing them….” As amply demonstrate we have always listen and answer to all the serious and specific critics . At the same we have always critics , and we will still do, all the generic critics and the offense . I think is clear . Going back at your post n.8 in witch you talk about your tracking jump grips formation , would be nice , as also Marco was asking you , to post some videos or pics of this great jumps. thanks Peace Love and Respect Marco

Hi Dave , this is a good post where finally you talk of the technique aspects asking questions avoid any kind of not topic comment. So when you say : Do you blame me for being sceptical ? , I answer you : absolutely no ! This is definitely the way. You say : I still don't understand your diagrams. The first one shows a typical lift coefficient curve for a cambered airfoil. It shows that you get maximum lift at some high angle of attack. Then right below it, you show an atmonaut flying along at 0 angle of attack, which generates very little lift even for a nice airfoil, let alone a guy making hand gestures and sticking a foot above his head. This leads me to believe that a good flat track must generate more lift than atmonauti. Why doesn't your diagram show what you're trying to actually explain? As tell you in the previous answer , this first sketch , as explicate on the text description ( in our web site , and in the magazine where it was publicated) , says that the technique atmonauti permit the generation of lift in using the human body EXATELLY as a wing , compare the two models wings and body . Is clear that the body will act exactly as a wing change different angles of asset and different angles of attack … as a wing . In the same sketch is represented the atmonaut in one of this configuration (not the only one as you can determinate from the range of body angles at witch correspond different angled of attack , described in the successive sketch ). I believe that this sketch titled “Lift of Atmonauti fly” have the meaning of say that human body used as a wing create lift … and it explicate how a wing works . Human body (indicatively represented in one of the wing situation, to figurate out the example) , act as a wing ! You say : “This leads me to believe that a good flat track must generate more lift than atmonauti” As indicate also in the graphics when the angle of attack become too big with the consequent stall , and as tell you in the previous post , I believe that track do not create the condition for generate lift , as a stall wing don‘t do : … the two condition to create lift for human body are: - create a wing shape with the body - create an angle of asset able to start to aliment this human wing from the bord of attack (head , shoulders , arms and hands ) , from the head to the feet , and consequently regulate the different angles of attack. Analyzing the track jumps always watched before 2000 we observe that this two condition are not respected : - the rabbit or leader , watch behind create a body shape as a “reverse wing” - the people following him from behind , they watching forward , also in this case create a body shape as a “reverse wing” - analyze the line of the body in track is pretty flat , creating a too big angle of attack synonymous of stall ( stall even more accentuate for the reverse wing shape ) So in track without wing shape and especially without angle of incidence , you will make a resistant work obtaining the horizontal performance deflecting the air . You say : “To be clear, let me define angle of attack as I mean it. It is the angle formed by a line that passes through the jumper's body from head to feet (chord line) and a line parallel to the relative wind. Clearly your diagrams all show an angle of attack of 0. “ The definition you say is exactly the same than the mine I give in my precedent post . The body , as precedent explicate in the first sketch , will act as a wing ! In the sketch are indicatively represented just one of the “body-wing” situation to show an example ! Regarding the diagram n. 2 , the title of this sketch is Angles of Atmonauti Flights , and the aim is show the range of the body angles used in atmonauti fly. The red line and the 2 atmonauts , indicatively represented ONE situation of fly , to make the example . The two black line delimitate the range of the angles of asset , that in relation to the relative wind speed on the body , determinate different angle of attack able to generate lift , always avoiding the stall . Is clear that every angles of asset in relation to the relative speed on the body will create different angles of attack . To make an example , at same angle of asset but with different speeds you will create different angles of attack ! So the black line, as you can also assume from the black line of the track , indicate the angles of asset at which will corresponds different angles of attack in relation to the speed. The sketch is indicative but is pretty logic deduce that the black line indicate the body angle of asset (in fact in those lines is not written : trajectory , as in the indicative and different red one) … if you consider so , than the tracking jump will never land . You say : “It all sounds too good to be true” In effect is not , because in this black lines is not write trajectory , as in the different red one. I hope to have answer your question … let me know ---------------- To make more examples about different angles of attack I attach some pics where see some difference. “atmonauti” in complex is of course a theory , our theory . We are not aerospace engineer and mathematics but both me and Gigliola (she is also a pilot ) , from 10 years now , we are with all our entire live in this thing , documenting ourselves everywhere , talking with pilots and aerodynamics engineer , study aerodynamics theorycally and experiment practically always different things with this technique , grow skills and new input day by day … We are convinct that our theory is so valid , that we have decide to dedicate all our live (no stop) only for the developing of this idea , as we believe can be a great benefit for everybody . Of course we believe that from our point of view this Atmonautics is a “science” that studies the unexplored human fly possibility , (at same than other science initialling not scientifically recognize , and maybe later recognize or may be not ) . Absolutely nobody want to impose this as a recognised science . It is not now and we know very well , but we go forward and we are working hard with this target . These sketch are not meant to be assertation for aeronautical engineer, are basic information for skydivers and explicate in the easier way the concept behind atmonauti. Anyway everything was always supported by plenty of video and description. At the moment we support our theories with a series of “fact” that we think important to confirm the theory . This fact are resumed in these points : - the physic phenomenon of the rig going up and FORWARD ; - the tandem-atmonauti flying without drogue at vertical speed of 170-190 Km/h (same or less than with the drogue in freefall ) ; - the fact that the atmo-flights cover horizontal distance (using gps and considering the wind influence ) definitely more relevant than the vertical distance (as demonstrate on the atmonauti airshow where we have done more than 2 miles of horizontal distance , on 10.000 feet of flight altitude ! ) - the fact that the atmo-flights last in time from 70 to 80 seconds from 13.000 , around the 30 % more than in belly , and the 80% more than vertical freefly , without any tracking rigid long “deflecting air” shape , but completely free in the body to perform a multitude of complex docks and games !!!! We invite everybody that can seriously analyze these aspects or bring some serious contribute participating in this research , as we are doing in more than one directions with also other scientific and non . We are proposing and divulgate our theory from 2000 including all the safety aspects , happy to help everybody want to try and use this new technique system.

You say : Marco, I don't know if that post was aimed at me or not as it contained quotes from this entire thread, many not made by me personally aside from a few. Was related to you any way , as forum user and as moderator in charge to moderate and keep the discussion in a positive direction . I personally still think that affirmation present in this and in the other atmonauti trhead as : ... I have mine, I say your full of crap! .... made up by some euro trash to ... .... cooking up witch doctor aerodynamics, ignoring basic physics and trying to give it a different name ... .........Welcome to the stupid club...... … and in plain English.... bullshit, albeit with a sugar coating…. They aliment negativity in the peoples and favourite incomprehension , and worst , bring very down the level of the discussion . I personal think that a good moderator have not to affirm this stuff, and he have to try to keep out this offensive affirmation , and stimulate everybody to stay on topic . … I do not say that all the post was offensive … I just say that this kind of affirmation are offensive , and it’s a shame that they are in the threads . So please note that we have never critique the critic on the topics , and we have always answer with explanations , sketch , pictures , videos etc . But we have just critique the offence and the ridiculization . You say : Perhaps you can address the issues being presented in a better manner than has been presented so far by Marco C or Vins. Until you address the issues mentioned, the manner in which ATMO is being presented ( erroneous aerodynamic principals, made up words and hype… Well , can you detail , once again , this “erroneous aerodynamic principals” ? A part that the post of Vins and Marco they ware related to the atmo-progression-system , and about the safety topic of “direction and navigation” , and sincerously , reading back all the post , there is not one of this posts talking about this main topics ! So a part this , please detail point by point the Vins and Marco “erroneous aerodynamic principals” , so that we can answer you point by point. You say : I will say this in plain English so that there is no confusion. I don't have anything against ATMO…. Quote : .... cooking up witch doctor aerodynamics, ignoring basic physics and trying to give it a different name ... … and in plain English.... bullshit, albeit with a sugar coating…. This your words say pretty clearly , and in a pretty bad way , that you are against atmo ! You say : *Notice*: If someone feels they have been offended or insulted be it due to a language difference/barrier, tone or due to culturally and societal accepted differences in word usage, please see below: The content of this post was not meant to insult, demean or in any other way cause offense through the use of straight forward honest talk. In effect this last your post do not contain offensive content …. but you really think you can say the same for the up written examples ? I conclude remind you the topic argument , hoping that in the next post your will finally answer point by point , avoiding change of arguments and the repetitive affirmation : “erroneous aerodynamic principals” … : 1) post the freefly angled stuff before 2000 , that we have just “labelled“. 2) who want permanently stay off topic and continue in going forward with the offence , please open a new thread and call it “lets trash atmonauti” 3) if lift do not exist in atmo , in which way is possible that the vertical speed when I do the atmo-tandem with out drogue , is around 180 km/h ( 110 miles/h ) ? …. 4) a part the not serious and false yours affirmation of A0A=0 lift … what are the other atmonauti “statements that contradict basic aerodynamics “ ?

A part that is funny to answer to questions with other questions , I will not do the same , answering in this post at all your questions , hoping that you will also answer to mine … before I just want comment shortly your post . You say : I have nothing against atmonauti I’m happy to know this , but may be I do not interpretate correctly all your posts where you evidently irony on the atmonauti sketch , this sound to me as to be against … not really pro, and not even neutral , but may be is my wrong interpretation …. Let me know Any way when you say : “ … Must be atmonauti's magical powers to generate massive lift and thrust at zero angle of attack … “ you say 2 wrong think : the first is that we have NEVER said that at 0 angle of attack we have the maximum lift . At revers , if you tryed to interpretate correctly the sketch ( and not just ridicolizing … ) , you could clearly deduce this : Watching the Sketch n 1 (file schema-Atmo-portanza-d.jpg) This sketch show the possibility with the atmonauti technique to obtain lift , using the body as a wing . This sketch say that the body will act exactly as a wing choose the angle of attack , and regulating different speeds obtaining more or less lift , always avoiding the stall , exactly as indicate in the wing examples and graphic in this sketch. The graphic shows the lift in function of angle of attack , answering to your incorrect affirmation : As you can see the maximum lift you have it at maximum angle of attack , just before the stall . The same graphics of lift in function of the angle of attack show that at 0 angle of attack (talking about an asymmetric wing as indicate in the sketch and as we are in atmo ) , there is a minimum lift force generate too . So here the second wrong thing when you say that at 0 angle of attack mean 0 lift . Analyze also the Sketch n 2 (file : schema-atmo-3.jpg) titled ANGLES ATMONAUTI FLY . As the titled say the aim of this sketch is put in evidence the range of angles used with the atmonauti technique from 10° to 45° . This angles are the range in which the atmonauts fly , regulating their speeds without stalling the human wing . This angles and speed can be different related to the different typologies of atmo-flights and the performance that the atmonaut want to obtain . In the same sketch are indicate the existing discipline between this new technique is collocate . Between the more efficient track : “flat and efficient” as describe in all the didactics of that time , and taught from the AFF , seen in all the groups tracking jumps before 2000 (see pictures and videos) and the flocking dives , vertical group movements. So about your first question : “Do you believe your angle of attack is 0 in atmonauti?” The answere is no . As up wright illustrate the angle of attack is variable in relation the performance you want to obtain and in relation the various different atmo games you are playing. You can have an idea of the different angles of attack observing the atmo flights with smoke or ribbon (angle create between the line head-feet -wing cord- and the line of the smoke/ribbon) . About this is necessary to say that different point of view where is taking the picture , can create different visual effect of this angle . About your second question : “Do you believe the human body makes an efficient airfoil?” Not really if we compare with an airplane wing or with a canopies wing ….. Any way we create a sufficient airflow to generate a certain amount of lift . I will not discuss here how much lift we will obtain , but at support of OUR THEORY , we bring objective argumentation that untill now are not been considering and/or commented in a serious way : - the physic phenomenon of the rig going up and FORWARD ; - the tandem-atmonauti flying without drogue at vertical speed of 170-190 Km/h (same or less than with the drogue in freefall ) ; - the fact that the atmo-flights cover horizontal distance definitely more relevant than the vertical distance (as demonstrate on the atmonauti airshow where we have done more than 2 miles of horizontal distance , on 10.000 feet of flight altitude ! ) - the fact that the atmo-flights last in time from 70 to 80 seconds from 13.000 , around the 30 % more than in belly , and the 80% more than vertical freefly , without any tracking rigid long “deflecting air” shape , but completely free in the body to perform a multitude of complex docks and games !!!! Considering that all this , years ago was just not possible and not imaginable , discover that human can generate lift and so FLY in the real aerodynamics meaning of the word , I think it’s already a great thing … enough to have a little bit of respect for who have introduce this new and revolutionaly concept (NOT TRADE MARKED - SPREAD TO ALL THE WORLD FOR FREE - TEACH TO EVERYBODY IN THE CHEAPEST AND FAST WAY ) , and for defenetly going forward with research and sperimentation , as we think that this can be just a beginning of an unexplorate human possibilities … ATMONAUTI ( Atmo = Atmosphere / Nauti = Navigators ) is not just a name , is a definition of a new human activity : Fly , constantly generating lift and Navigating the atmosphere with efficiency and extreme precision. About your third question : “Do you think a tracking skydiver doesn't produce lift but atmonauts do?” IMO Yes . IMO the two condition to create lift for human body are: - create a wing shape with the body - create an angle of asset able to start to aliment this human wing from the bord of attack (from the head to the feet) , and consequently regulate the different angles of attack. Exactly what we do in atmo and evidenciate on the atmo-sketch Analyzing the track jumps always watch before 2000 we observe that this two condition are not respected : - the rabbit or leader , watch behind create a body shape as a “reverse wing” - the people following him from behind , they watching forward , also in this case create a body shape as a “revers wing” - analizing the line of the body in track is pretty flat , creating a too big angle of attack synonymous of stall ( stall even more accentuate for the reverse wing shape ) In practice in track the phisic phenomenum we observe is resistant : deflection of the air impacting from below long all the body , with a more or less long , rigid , arched or dearched body positions. In atmo the phisic phenomenum we observe is lift : creating a wing shape and angles of asset able to create different angles of attack. To make another comparaison , I think that we can assimilate the track to a round parachute and the atmonauti to a wing canopies. In the round parachute pulling the racer , you will inclinate the calotte and the parachute will “track” in the direction you pull the racer . The parachute track with horizontal movement too , but physically still make a resistant work . The canopies have a different shape respect the parachute , a wing shape , and he normally is trim with angles create angles of attack : physically we observe the lift phenomenon. Do you believe in a fundamental difference between "creating lift" and "deflecting air?" About your last question I think the answere is implicite in the previous answere and analysis . …. I think that if this difference was not existing , the tandem atmo with out drogue was falling down at almost 300 km/h a not 180 km/h . I hope to have detailed at maximum the answere to your questions . Open to continue the debate on concrete topics , or try to answer any question you want to add. Anyway can you detail me precisely where I "contraddict basic aerodynamics" and what are the "gros inaccuracies" that you and LouDiamon continue to affirm in your posts. And if you still believe that lift do not exist , please try to explicate me in wich way is possible that tandem-atmo fly so slow vertically without drogue. Marco

Lou Diamond 1) You say : Surely you are jesting with that statment ...right? You do know that Atmonauti was a move used in freestyle competition for years before someone thought it would be cool to re-invent the wheel? Vins answer : Yes, I know that Atmonauti was a move used in freestyle competition as I know that it was happend after years that Marco Tiezzi and Gigliola Borgnis was presented the Atmo-Freestyle at Eloy in the FreeFly Festival on 2000, technique colled Atmonauti by themselfs at that time. They won a prize by the film edited by Tiezzi that showed a "new" stuff that flown in angle, never seen before, and in a Freestyle competition. Who have RE-INVENT what ? Make sentence and ridicolize people , without know very well the fact , is definitely not a good start for you. 2) You say : I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any different from freeflying when you apply the definition of free flying To comment this affirmation is necessary to make a quick history (that I lived personally) of the fact . This is very clear documented in the historic documents of that time as books, skydiving magazine , VHS commercialized video tapes , official FAI videotapes of competitions , official FAI text documents describing the disciplines … we have pretty much stuff of that periods to prove this story ! . Which definition are you talking about , the first one of the beginning , or the second one that came out years after 2000 ? Yes because in that time the original definition of the “free fly” , came from his inventor with the famous “Olav Position” , was only VERTICAL STUFF : full of prove of this in all the dates magazine , articles , videos (cronicle 1 , 2 ,3 ) , pictures , competitions , etc. I talk from 95 , when I start jump , to 2000 : in this period was existing the free-fly (most vertical head down with the first jumps in groups in head down , and 3 way team perform head down and head up acrobatic vertical manoeuvre ). In the meantime there was already existing the FREE STYLE from few years before the free fly , which was already the real first free-fall discipline , different respect rw and style , performing acrobatic three-dimensional manoeuvres in different body position , in all the slow vertical speed (more flat) , and in all the other vertical highest speed body position as stand-up , daffy , straddle etc. , excluding the head down position (introduce by Olav later) In the last years of the 90’ was arriving from USA the first group tracking jumps performed by the free flyer , and was at 100% tracking with the rabbit on the back watching the other follow him on the belly from behind ! The same tracking system known from years around all over the world , and that really strange we do not see too much anymore today . Very strange transformation ! So in practice for at least 5 years from 95 to 2000 , during the period of the big “bum” of Free Fly and its big diffusion , all the biggest world freeflyers at the top of their own fly-level , they ware making the tracking group jumps with the system up described. (… many photos on magazines/videos to prove this) So before that the definition of free fly becomes “everything” , when you were going tp the boarding area to divide the exit order of the groups, you knew very well what kind of typology of jump were : rw , freestyle , freefly/flocking , tracking. Well , the true is that ONLY after we present Atmonauti for the first time in 2000 , people have started to modify the traditional way of tracking , apply more and more the atmonauti technique . And in contemporaney is born the new definitions of FAI about “diagonal orientation” including the new atmonauti one , and in this moment is also start to change the definition of “free fly” from vertical stuff , to “Free Fly is EVERYTHING , including what you still have to imagine“ . Personally I think this affirmation is absurd ! Following this statement you can say that free fly includes also rw , sky surf , free style , etc. … Your statement say that atmonauti is not a new discipline but is just part of free fly , so , using the same way of think , you can also say that free fly is not a new discipline but is just part of the Free Style which arrived earlier. At last , personally I think that is also a good way to stop evolution , saying that if something new will be discover , it will be collocate in the “freefly box” any way . Everybody is free to see the things as he preferred , but if we want make a serious analysis of the historic facts , is pretty absurd to think to convince people with just some talking and without post nothing about the prove of the affirmation . For the moment , in years now that this discussion go forward ( check some thread in this site ) , the total absence of even ONE of this prove was never posted from NOBODY is the perfect confirm of what we are saying ! …. 5 minutes of work are enough for go to search in old magazine and videos the part of the existing freefly that we have just “labelled” (as someone affirm) …. will be enough to close definitely the discussion , avoiding hundred and hundred of post where people ask to prove his affirmation , change every time argument …. Sometime talking about the not possible lift , sometime ridicules the sketch , sometime just with offence . So pleas now post the PROVE OF YOUR AFFIRMATION . People are not so slow to understand where is the true . 3) Atmonauti have his own big difference related to this other existing disciplines , for which is necessary introduce new concepts and new safety rules . And that’s why Marco and Vins and all of us are transmit from years all the know how of this argument including the VERY IMPORTANT safety rules about directions and Navigations that you can read in the post n. 7 of this thread … Sincerely we were waiting for a “thanks” for this ….. Not really a so heavy attack and ridicolization (including from the moderator of the tread) ….. Here just some example : ... I have mine, I say your full of crap! .... made up by some euro trash to ... .... cooking up witch doctor aerodynamics, ignoring basic physics and trying to give it a different name ... .........Welcome to the stupid club...... … and in plain English.... bullshit, albeit with a sugar coating…. I repeat the Marco Ciocca invite to open a thread titled “lets trash atmonauti” , where I’m sure the upwright example they will found a better collocation. 4) About the lift , here we go with other attack and put in ridiculous our ideas…. There are many example , but I want to ask you only one thing now : if lift does not exist with the atmoanuti technique , can you tell me in which way is possible that the vertical speed when I do the atmo-tandem with out drogue , is around 180 km/h ( 110 miles/h ) ? Any way , the argument is still open …. There is a thread in the freefly section call “atmo question” where with the usual sympathies , someone attack strongly ridicolizing atmo again and affirm that human lift IS IMPOSSIBLE …. After days the same people have start to admit lift but in a minimum percentage …. Ummm something is changing …. Waiting the next step … I say again that all you guys so heavy against atmonauti and against the people that like it and promote it , you are writing very well your name in the history of who have try to slow down this EVOLUTION PROCESS of REAL HUMAN FLIGHT. Congratulation to pass in the history ! 5) you say : …..we do similar things in wingsuiting You have to know that the discipline that you hate so much , atmonauti , have set up years before wing suit , manoeuvre and rules , that now are integrally adopted by the wing-suit movement and competition . Just talk about this last x.mass boogie in South Africa with Alexandro Lopez Arce told me to have take lot of movement and ideas from the atmonauti web site ( Contest ARW AtmonautiRelativeWork in 2 and 4 way ) , including the adopting of the new atmonauti system for the working time , not anymore fixed in a certain amount of seconds , but related to the altitude ! Check it out . We are really happy that lot of the atmonauti technique and concepts , have many time positively influenced other discipline. 5) you say : Did you honestly expect no one to point out the gross inaccuracies of your statements and simply go along with statements that contradict basic aerodynamics on a forum where pilots and skydivers post Well , I read back all your post and a part a lot of bad word and negative sentence against atmoanuti , I have not found any kind of serious technique objection related the atmonauti statement ! In effect you quote people make technical objection as for example : “… That angle is commonly known as "Angle Of Attack". Every wing requires an AOA greater than zero in order to create lift. I have a hard time believing that just by announcing "I'm doing Atmonauti" as I leave the plane, I can violate the laws of physics and create lift with an AOA of zero.” Well , a part the usual sympatic attitude to ridicolize atmonauti , this statement A0A=0 lift , is just FALSE !!!! So if the critique come from this type of statement , I just tell you please do not continue to offend us , and give this false information to peoples …. If you hate atmonauti , is not a good reason to hate aerodynamics too. Other serious technique objection ? Be serious , stay on topic , and tell me what are the “statements that contradict basic aerodynamics” a part the wrong one in YOUR SIDE just up described . Lets summarize the topic point of this long post : 1) post the freefly angled stuff before 2000 , that we have just labelled . 2) who want permanently stay off topic and continue in going forward with the offence , please open a new thread and call it “lets trash atmonauti” 3) if lift do not exist in atmo , in which way is possible that the vertical speed when I do the atmo-tandem with out drogue , is around 180 km/h ( 110 miles/h ) ? …. 4) a part the not serious and false yours affirmation of A0A=0 lift … what are the other atmonauti “statements that contradict basic aerodynamics “ ?

The posts that Piers Roberts is talking about are not deleted. Stated that he doesn’t prove his accuse by posting the censored post ( but changing every time argument) , I will attach here making a copy and paste of his facebook post and of the answer he received. (here the link to verify the post are there : http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=9908361758&topic=3933 ) Post #21 2 repliesPiers Roberts (no network) replied to Marco's post on Feb 10, 2008 at 10:07 AM. Okay... point by point lets examine the counter argument no.1- The defination of atmonauti. Interesting definiton, lets take that apart. As someone who works with artillery mathematics day to day i can have a look at the variables you are discussing such a 'lift' and 'drag' and subsequently as they relate to your definition of atmo. All of my equations are publicly available, if you'd like to check them, go to www.grc.nasa.gov 'Lift occurs when a moving flow of gas is turned by a solid object. The flow is turned in one direction, and the lift is generated in the opposite direction, according to Newton's Third Law of action and reaction. Because air is a gas and the molecules are free to move about, any solid surface can deflect a flow. For an aircraft wing, both the upper and lower surfaces contribute to the flow turning. Neglecting the upper surface's part in turning the flow leads to an incorrect theory of lift' Lift is generated by the difference in velocity between the solid object and the fluid. There must be motion between the object and the fluid: no motion, no lift. It makes no difference whether the object moves through a static fluid, or the fluid moves past a static solid object. Lift acts perpendicular to the motion. Drag acts in the direction opposed to the motion. Because lift and drag are both aerodynamic forces, the ratio of lift to drag is an indication of the aerodynamic efficiency of the airplane. Aerodynamicists call the lift to drag ratio the L/D ratio, pronounced "L over D ratio." An airplane has a high L/D ratio if it produces a large amount of lift or a small amount of drag. Under cruise conditions lift is equal to weight. A high lift aircraft can carry a large payload. Under cruise conditions thrust is equal to drag. A low drag aircraft requires low thrust. Thrust is produced by burning a fuel and a low thrust aircraft requires small amounts of fuel be burned. As discussed on the maximum flight time page, low fuel usage allows an aircraft to stay aloft for a long time, and that means the aircraft can fly long range missions. So an aircraft with a high L/D ratio can carry a large payload, for a long time, over a long distance. For glider aircraft with no engines, a high L/D ratio again produces a long range aircraft by reducing the steady state glide angle at which the glider descends. The lift equation indicates that the lift L is equal to one half the air density r times the square of the velocity V times the wing area A times the lift coefficient Cl: L = .5 * Cl * r * V^2 * A Similarly, the drag equation relates the aircraft drag D to a drag coefficient Cd: D = .5 * Cd * r * V^2 * A Dividing these two equations give: L/D = Cl/ Cd Interestingly a few years back a series of experiemtents commissioned by NASA and used by speed skydivers on the human body as it travels through the atmosphere were very revealing about how we can define whether or not a human generates 'lift' or 'drag' by your definition atmonauti is primarily concerned with non mechanic lift to generate flight. The main variable in this equation is a human being, the atmospheric density at different altitudes which we'll hold constant for the purpose pf this discussion. when we apply the sum of these two equations to the matter at hand L/D = Cl/ Cd , human beings create more drag than lift due to the irregualar surface(skin surface friction) and the very high density in relation to surface area(way worse than the space shuttle in reentry!). The broadest conclusion of this is that human beings do not generate lift, but drag. Drag which is usefull in creating steering force which in turn is angular deflection. Conclusion as it relates to the Atmonauti Definition- As human beings travelling though the atmosphere are incapable of generating lift, the before mentioned definition becomes irrelevant, and should merrit further examination to be relevant. So ill leave your definition at that....interesting, though scientifically impossible. If you disagree, dispute the mathematics. They are beyond dispute, proven, used and accepted by mathematicians and physicists worldwide. Think ive got you on that one Marco. ------------------ Note and ulterior question : A part a copy and paste from Nasa site , of aerodynamics text and formulation , - Can you also past the specific Nasa documentations of what you say :” … a series of experiemtents commissioned by NASA and used by speed skydivers … “ (it will be also interesting to watch which kind of technique they have use during these experiments) - Avoiding your personal conclusion , can you also paste the Nasa documents where read the conclusion of human impossible lift generation ? Or may be are “top secret” documents , and only you can read it ? ---------------- Marco Tiezzi (Italy) replied to Piers's post on Feb 11, 2008 at 9:10 AM. ….. Now let’s talk about the lift : You say that you talk and analize the phisic phenomenum happen . So please , if you say there is not lift , esplicate me why the rig on the shoulders go UP and FORWARD . Yes because in your precedent explaination ( where you say that we have the loose harnes ), you have forget to esplicate why the rig go also FORWARD respect the direction , not only up …. See the pictures of this particular , in attach …… If is as you have esplicate with matematic complex argument , the rig will go up and backward due to the drag, not FORWARD ! Esplicate also why , if the lift do not exist , in which way is possible that a tandem atmonauti with-out drogue fly with vertical speed around 170-180 Km/h ( 125 – 130 miles per hour) almost less than with the drogue . As you wrote : “ im putting the cold hard facts of physics forward …… “ , I’m very looking forward to see your complex calculation to explicate this phisic action of the rig going forward , and during the atmo-tandem ------------------------- Piers Roberts (no network) replied to Marco's post on Feb 11, 2008 at 12:33 PM. ….. The Rig Phenominum- Again, look at the anchor points where a rig loads onto your body. Even with lumbar 'comfy' straps(javelin has got great ones, mirage OK) rigs dont fit to the body particularly well due to our curvy features + we move about quiet a bit. When tracking, atmo 'ing whatever... a gap appears which catches air. The rear of the rig pivots off of your lower back when catches air. Using logic such as 'I see a rig move up, therefore it is creating lift'. Is a bit like saying 'I am driving a car, therefore cheese at the shops will cost £2.25'. One statement and bit of data doesnt support the conclusion. Id really like to continue debating this with you Marco, but find data that directly and quantitatively supports your conclusion. Otherwise, its not too far off of heresay. Tandems going slower etc...Greater surface area exposed to the relative wind. For the same reason when tracking or going really slow flat(hug that beach ball!) you go slower. Im afraid from a scientific point of view, it is impossible for a human being to create lift through free fall. The equations used to come to this conclusion form the basis of our understanding about flight, the basis of all aerodynamics. If these equations are wrong, then for the past 100 years scientists all over the world have been using the wrong variables. But heh Marco, who knows, the whole body of scientific reasearch, 1000's of Ph.D's, the whole field of aerodynamics is wrong, and maybe your right.... ------------------------- Marco Tiezzi (Italy) replied to Piers's post on Feb 20, 2008 at 9:50 AM. ….. 5) Piers Robert have try in all the way to demonstrate that atmonauti technique doesn’t create any lift . In front of the easy request to demonstrate why during the frontmonaut flight , the rig go up and forward ( for the clear lift generate by the body ) , he answer giving a very funny explanation of loose harness and direction of the air moving the rig . Forgetting completely to give an answer at the main effect of the rig going FORWARD respect the wind direction . Solicited to answer about this real physic effect , he still answer talking about the rig only going up , completely ignoring the fact that the rig go FORWARD . Again a demonstration of the ability of this person, to change topic . In front of the easy request to demonstrate why during the backmonaut flight , the shirt have the tendency to go up and forward ( for the clear lift generate by the body ) , he do not answer with any kind of explanation , and he just joke about this, demonstrate all his destabilizing attitude show in all his posts . In front of the easy request to demonstrate why during the atmo-tandem , the vertical speed without the drogue , is from 170 to 180 Km/h ( for the clear lift generate by the body ) , he answer in a really ridiculous way , saying : “Tandems going slower etc...Greater surface area exposed to the relative wind. For the same reason when tracking or going really slow flat(hug that beach ball!) you go slower” . Everybody in the world know the reason of why the tandem use the drogue . Probably not Piers that ignore that two bodies on the same surface they will increase the speed arrive to terminal velocity around 300 km/h … He still talking about “scientific point of view “ , and he gives a not so serious and incorrect answer ….. Censure ? … look more like you still have to answer or detailed something there …. But probably for you is better change argument trying with censure and other off topic arguments. Marco Tiezzi

General answere for this forum : …. Regarding who say that the diagram is not correct : In Atmonauti the body is use exactly as a WING …. this sketch are indicative and this representation is for make understand that the air is coming from the head to the feet (as the airflow on a wing) respect the tracking where the air is impacting on all the length of the body . In synthesis in Atmonauti the physic phenomenon that we observe , is a “lift work” , and in tracking is a “resistant work” …. that’s why are completely different things ! Of course as in atmo we use the body like a wing , we can trim this wing with angles of incidence (respect the airflow) obtaining more lift (and less horizontal speed). If this angle become too much (also in relation of the speed) , the human wing profile “stall” losing all the lift and consequently do a unique resistant work (as in track) …. This are just easy Aerodynamics concept … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concept to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … in Atmonauti the airflow is the same represent in the sketch of the wing (when is not in stall of course) !!! See the “lift” sketch of comparation between the wing and the body use with the technique Atmonauti (to see the lift , observe the rig on the shoulder that take off up and forward) . Atmonauti is the real human flight because there is the “LIFT” … all the rest , is more “control of the falling” … we can talk about “fly” with the real mean of the word , only if exist “lift” …. In freefly , relative work , tracking etc. do not exist the “lift” . I know that everybody in skydiving talk about fly (vertical fly, sit fly , belly fly etc. ) … but I think everybody can agree that we give to this term a different meaning respect the correct use of this word in Aerodynamics . Regarding the fact that Atmonauti fly is easy and indicate for everybody including the very low experience , of course we talk about the basic fly in frontmonaut without complexes manoeuvre and without grip or acrobatic stuff … but for sure the slow vertical speed , the possibility to have long time work and the possibility to come in the group pretty often without problems , warranty a fast progression also for the real beginners ( but for this is very necessary good briefings and good debriefings). For us is very usual to have in the big way people with 80, 100 or 200 jumps flying synchronize with the formation in a very clean , easy and safety way . We start the coaching as soon they finished the AFF and the basic qualification , and in this case, without having any different imprinting , they learn to fly atmonauti very quick ! More in general I want to say that actually is years that somebody still will not accept the new Atmonauti concept , some time saying that is nothing different from tracking and some time that is just flocking … (so at this point , why they don’t say also that track and flock are the same thing ? ) Of course are three very different thing !!! And the logic (and good sense) want that also the definitions are to be different ! But some people prefer just create confusion for have the possibility to say what they want and what is convenient for their ego . Is also years that some people including some big name , are doing atmonauti (may be just faster and without docks) but they call in different way (track most of the time, or trace or flock etc.) … no problem … I’m ready to show that all this people was tracking and flocking differently before and right after 2000 …. After the indroduction of the new Atmonauti technique, as for a magic , they have start to change their traditional way of track and flock, in a way more similar to atmonauti , but still calling track or flock …. Perfect, they have create the huge confusion existing now ( thanks to this people there still be skydivers , that after 7 year, even don’t know about the existence of the new Atmonauti technique … the real human flight technique , easy and accessible to everybody ) , but no problem …. We go forward and soon the true will be evident for everybody in the world . To everybody continuous to say that was stuff already done , I say them one time for all : ok , no problem … but please now stop to talk and show the videos , pictures , article where this people produce, show and comment diagrams and talk about the technique questions … and again , show the feet first stuff ; or the flight in formation with the airplane ; or the tandem without drog and without pass the 180/200 Km/h ; or the docking formation ; or just no-contact formations where the people fly on top of the other without fall on each other …. No way my friends , until now nobody have show stuff like that, happen before 2000 (year of presentation of Atmonauti) ! . Check it out what was tracking and flocking before 2000 …. Absolutely far away respect the Atmonauti system ! The history can’t be change ! … and is all there to watch in the official videos (productions and competitions) and in the articles and pictures (books and magazines) ! If this people can’t bring any concrete prove that this stuff was already existing before 2000 , please I think is time to quit this discussion . We invite everybody to visit our web site www.atmonauti.com at the guinnes pages to see all the new manoeuvre and records performed in this 7 years . Any way for all the people that continuous to say that Atmonauti don’t exist , is to late : from 2000 too many people have exactly understood what is Atmonauti and too many people have try and learn this new technique (philosophy) and have feel very different sensations . Ask to all this guys , everybody will answere : “ … is new ! is great ! … and is complitelly different rispect track and flock ! ” In Atmonauti from 1998 we are doing FREESTYLE , FREEFLY , FEET FIRST, RELATIVE WORK , PRIZE GAMES (SFIDA and RACE) , BIG DOCK FORMATION , TANDEM , TANDEM with DOCK FORMATION , WORLD RECORD , etc. ….. they still call all this track or flock ? …. Is their problem . Personally , we invite everybody have questions to contact us directly or , even better , to come and fly with us (or with the numerous expert atmonauts around the world) and make a definitive personal experience about this matter . www.atmonauti.com …. See you soon at Fly Zone Marche : 12-17 April – Eaester Boogie with load organizing atmonauti for all levels , and with the I-B Course (qualification for Instructor Atmonauti , Pilot tdm Atmonauti and “free school” for beginners with less than 100 jumps). Big screen all evening with the daily flight . 22/4 – 1/5 – Contest Atmonauti SFIDA and RACE . Prize games with 8000 euro and rich Larsen&Brusgaard prize to win . Load organizing atmonauti for all levels and the ATP AtmonautiTopPatrol . Big screen all evening with the daily flight . T-shirt of the Contest for all the participants in the games. 1-11 June – AtmonautiPro3 . The main world Atmonauti event of the year with the special participation of the ATP and of the best world atmonauts . Atmonauti load organizing and games for all levels ; big way atmonauti . Big screen all evening with the edit of the daily flight . Final lottery with big prize . Big Saturday night party. T-shirt AP3 for all the event participants. Event DVD . 22–30 July – Contest Atmonauti ARW4 Atmonauti Relative Work in 4 way . Prize games with 8000 euro and rich Larsen&Brusgaard prize to win . Load organizing atmonauti for all levels and the ATP AtmonautiTopPatrol . Big screen all evening with the daily flight . T-shirt of the Contest for all the participants in the game. 5-15 August – SkydiveMarche SummerBoogie . with load organizing atmonauti for all levels , and with the I-B Course (qualification for Instructor Atmonauti , Pilot tdm Atmonauti and “free school” for beginners with less than 100 jumps). Big screen all evening with the daily flight . Beach landing , beach party and the excellent Italian food . 19-27 August – Contest Atmonauti WORLD RECORD . All the atmonauts able to dock in front and/or in back are invite for this historic event . With the special participation of the ATP . Big screen all evening with the daily flight . T-shirt of the Contest for all the participants in the world record jumps. 23/9 – 1/10 – MA.GI.A. boogie . party time with the Marco and Gigliola birthday (30/9) , but also great group navigations all together and again the ATP partecipation . Big screen all evening with the daily flight 1-12 November – Breack Off Boogie – end season boogie with l.o. for all levels and the I-B Course (qualification for Instructor Atmonauti , Pilot tdm Atmonauti and “free school” for beginners with less than 100 jumps). Last meeting of the year with the ATP : special flight in plane . Big screen all evening with the daily flight .

Is easy to talk and say that you guys have invented everything before the others.... I just say one thing: stop to talk and show videos , pictures , articles sketch … We have set up a new technique of fly that was not existing before and we have call it “atmonauti” I mean “atmosphere navigators” ! With this technique we have do a lot of new staff never seen before ! we have document all this manoeuvre in our web site with dates and references! If you want to see all these manoeuvres go to www.atmonauti.com , page Atmonauti, section Guinness. If somebody don’t think so , well no problem, but please, start to produce video or picture or whatever with dates and riferiment Words or dreams or philosophic definition , are not enough ! You say that “free fly” or “flock” is everything … I say free fly or flock is just what you have show and what everybody have see until now … no more , no less ! If tomorrow somebody come out with something new or different , never seen before, is right that he call like he want ! That’s the unique way to keep open the evolution !