erdnarob

It's my belief that if the Stiletto was an airplane it will never get its airworthiness permit. Why ? Because when that parachute deploys with a spin, it keeps on spinning until you counteract the turn with toggles provided you don't have line twists increased by the spin. After reading all those posts I don't think I make a mistake by suggesting you to jump a Nitron 135. That will be a medium while fully tapered canopy before going on a Katana 120 two hundreds jumps or so later. Nitron opens and flies quite well and have a very good flare which is good for no wind landing. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I agree with you that there might be a confusion. Cypres loop however are made from Polyethylene (page 34 of Cypres owner's guide) fiber like the Spectra line and not made of nylon. As I mentioned it there is a weak point when the loop is squeezed at the pin and the loop will likely break there. In am pretty sure that if the diameter of the pin would be bigger like it is on the Skyhook) the breaking point would be higher. Maybe Cypres when telling that the maximum strength of a alerady made loop is 450 lbs consider the safety factor. I will tried to get that clear by performing my own experiment. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Well, I believe you all. Personnally the softer opening canopy for me so far is my Katana 170 (average of 600 ft opening vertical distance calculated on 10 jumps using the graphs downloaded from the Vigil II and the Protrack). I am a big guy and had a Sabre 2-170 (average on 10 jumps was 340 ft) before which was OK for opening. We all have to realize something guys, softer means longer vertical distance opening. I consider that a canopy opening with a vertical distance of 800-1000 ft is too much. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

If you release the flare(s) (2" wide strips of fabric knotted together) after a good deployment, the speed of your parachute will keep it or them behind you and you will even not see it only when turning. I garantee you the most dramatic effect from the people looking from the ground. When landing, you need a sufficient clearance to make sure the flare(s) don't get caught by any obstacles. It's easy to make, easy to set up and your canopy ride will not be affected at all, believe my experience, I did it several times (I tried the flags too but talking with the observers at the ground flares are better unless you jump an very very large flag which is more complicated and can interfere with the flight of your canopy) Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

If you are now more confident in no wind landing, another way to go is to keep the same canopy size ( ie. a ZP 135 as you mentioned) but go for something more elliptical like a Nitron 135. It's maybe a too big step to change both the size and the type of canopy. Is that makes sense? On the other hand, I don't understand why people are still thinking of Stiletto (designed 15 years ago) while the Katana is way better for stability, spin recovery and general reliabilty. Instead of a Safire 2-119, I would rather go for a Sabre 2-120 with its extremely powerful flare. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Hi Superwoman, did your altitrack agree with your Neptune about the data registered? I have seen differences between my Protrack and the Parasport Skytronics on the same jump. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

You should read Performance Designs article about the factors contributing to opening forces. There are 5 factors: 1) pilot chute size and material, 2) line stows proper length, 3) rubber bands the right size, 4) your position at the pull time and 5) last but not the least, slider grommets against the stoppers (after the canopy bagging and before setting the first rubber band comb the lines upward to make sure the slider grommets are still against their stoppers). Leaving an inch or 2 between the grommets and their stoppers could make a very hard opening. Also BIll Booth says that a riser cover (with tuck tab) giving up a fraction of a second before the other one can make a hard opening too and this is the reason why he is offering the Vector III and Micron with riser cover equiped with magnets which hold the riser covers with a constant force of about 5-8 lbs if I remember. Remember that any parachute can slam you hard enough to cause you injuries and even death. There are cases where jumpers suffered aorta rupture and broken femur. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Physics, physics... the loop around the pin acts like a rope going around a single pulley therefore the force is divided by 2 because of the 2 parts of the loop. Demo: Have a rope long enough with the 2 ends attached at the ceiling and put a single pulley (with a hook) where the rope has a curve below (rope going around the pulley), Then suspend a weight of 800 lbs to the pulley hook. You will have 400 lbs per branch since there is 2 branches. Actually, since the closing loop is pinched, there is a weak point at the pin which reduces the actual strength at that very location. The loop going thru the little ring of the 3 ring release acts like a single pulley the same way, it divides the force by 2 where it is attached. Tell me if it's clear enough otherwise I will make a sketch. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Flags always necessitate a set ut, quick release, a weight to keep it straight.... I have had the most dramatic effect on demo jump when I was using long fabric flares stowed first in my jump suit below the chest strap. If you want to go with this idea, go at a fabric store and buy a piece of fluorescent (2 or 3 yard long) fabric: yellow, pink or orange and cut strips of 2 inches wide with a hot knife (use a piece of plywood under). Assemble the strips with a double knot and make a flare of 30-40-50 foot long. You even can alternate the colors. Stow everything orderly (figure 8) to avoid making a mess and get that flare out of your jumpsuit after having a canopy well deployed. That flare will follow the path of your parachute when you turn and therefore will make a 3 D effect of your trajectory. You can have several flares. Just attach them to the chest strap and throw out the whole thing when ready. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Garry, a lot of people are not using their own judgement especially about what is the functionality of what they do. Making the knots on the fingertrap of a closing loop and therefore locking the braids (inside and outside) together seems obvious but not for people who do not use their brain. Reading a manual is great but you still have to get a good interpretation of it. I would suggest that Airtec makes it clear in its manual that the knots have to comprise the two fingertraped loops. Try to make a system foolproof and there will always be a smart who will find a way to f..ked it up. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

When I said the Cypres braid was rated at approximately 180 kilograms, that comes right out the Cypres manual page 34. Since 180 kilograms make 396.8 lbs, when doubled that makes 793.6 lbs since it is fingertraped and therefore almost 800 lbs. Sorry but mathematics are clear about it and there is nothing ridiculous here. However I agree that the fingertrap loop can break before 800 lbs since it is pinched and squeezed between grommets making that way weak points in it. OTOH when I make the Cypres loop with the inside braid slightly shorter (half an inch), it's to put it more easily thru the washer holes. But read well my post, I make sure the knots are done on the fingertrap catching that way the outside and inside braids where it counts and locking them together, the remaining part of the braid opposite to the loop past the knots has no function at all, all right? Therefore your remark is somehow a bit awkward. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Thanks. Do you have or could you get more details about it ? Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

In my opinion it is not right. The fingertrap has to be full length of the closing loop and the knot obviously has to involve the fingertrap (2 loops) to make sure everything is locked. If you look at the prepared closing loops when you buy a Cypres rigger kit, you will see that the closing loops are full lenght fingertrapped, same for a rigger's kit from Vigil. A fingertrap theoretically is strong enough to not slip when pull force is applied. More you pull and more the outside loop of the fingertrap chokes the inside one and lock it. But it has to be double (full length fingertrapped) for more strength. As I said in another thread, the closing loop from Cypres is rated at 180 kilograms or 398 lbs. When full length fingertraped that makes a tensile strenght of about 800 lbs. I think I know why some rigger use that wrong method, it is easier to thread the loop thru the little holes of the Cypres washer. Personnaly I make my fingertrap full length with just the inside loop half a inch shorter. The outside a bit longer loop is then easier to go thru the holes and squeeze the inside loop when both has to go thru but I always make sure that the knots catch the two fingertraped loops. I start now using the Vigil Dyneema braid provided for closing loop. It is similar to the Cypres one but the big difference is the Vigil washer which is in stainless steel and has one hole and 2 slots and found it way easier to deal with. The double knot plus the stop knot bulk is stopped by the loop itself. See on Vigil wen site. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Packing a reserve with too much force on the closing loop can sometimes bend the pin. I have seen a case. The closing loop cord (Cypres) is rated at 180 kilograms or 397 lbs and it is doubled (fingertrap) which makes a maximum tensile strength of almost 800 lbs. When using a positive leverage device and according my calculations (torque) the pull force at the end of a normal packing is about 200 lbs for a pull force to have the pin slipping tested between 14 and 18 lbs. That's why one have to use a positive leverage device with caution since it can generate a lot of force. Also, a weakness in the pin shoulder (too much grinding of the cable after swaging) can lead to a bend of the pin combined with too much force on the closing loop. What happened to me one time is that I found my reserve pin bent at almost 45 degrees on the ground just before a jump. And suddenly I remembered that the precedent weekend I had felt a resistance when leaving the aircraft step (Cessna 180). I realized that resistance came from my reseve pin being caught by the front edge of the Cessna door. The front edge of the door had likely been under my Velcro flap and caught the pin. The pin bent when I left the airplane and probably went sideway to allow me to go. I was lucky enough that my closing loop did not break. The following jump was without any problem and there were no trace of friction just the stiffener of the second last flap was cracked inside the cordura. I hope this will help your friend to investigate what has happened. Have a rigger looking at this case. And remember (this is what I do now) have a reserve pin check before each jump). Cheers. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Another solution, since you said you have good muscles is to check with your instructor if you can go on a zero porosity 170. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Yes a safe approach is an ordinary audible altimeter like the Optima and a wrist altimeter (with computer if you can afford it) like the Altitrack. Personnally I have a Protrack (audible altimeter with computer) but its sound is not loud enough when I am busy turning points. That's why I have also a TIME OUT (not on the market anymore) which wakes me up plus my Altimaster 2 on the wrist. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

That's right, you have to try the rig, tight it up and stand up. The harness shouldn't be pushing at your shoulders. As somebody mentioned it, the length of the main lift web (MLW) is important to be confortable. I am 6 feet tall and my main lift web (torso) is a 22 inches. This is measured from the hole between the 2 collar bones at the base of the neck and the top of the hip bone and should be written on the harness tag. I sold my former rig (a Vector III) with similar dimensions to a guy being 6'1" tall and it fits him perfectly. What is important too is your chest size, for the chest strap and your leg pad size measured around your tight at your hip bone. Anyway, just trying a rig in presence of a rigger to advice you should be OK Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Come on Dough, my original post was not a question about a Cypres firing during the airplane descent at all. You assumed it was. I was asking about a tandem Cypres firing in the airplane in any circumstances. Dough, if you only knew the dirty war launched by Airtec (Cypres) on Vigil in order to put them out of business you would change your mind a bit. As an American believing in free enterprise you certainly know that if a company is trying to establish a monopoly, this is a crime. This is seemingly what is happening at the skydivers expenses. Competition is good to avoid stagnation, good to innovation, yield better products and better prices. On the other hand, I believe strongly in education and this is my role as a rigger to accumulate data in order to communicate the results to the skydiving community as you can see I do in other threads in this forum. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Thanks. Brian Germain's advice should be read by every jumper. Good stuff. As Brian says, it's difficult to get all aspects into one formula. Little discrepencies have to be allowed depending on each case. But I see another factor, the trim angle which is very shalow on a Nitron (13.75 degrees) versus a very steep one on a Katana (18 degrees) and the Samourai (17.35 degrees). Angle calculated according my own method: 1) taking the middle cell lines left or right, 2) measure the distance between A and D attachment points = X, 3) with the same attachment points on tension measure the difference of length between the A and D lines = Y, 4) angle = arcsine (Y/X) which is a good approximation. Any comments on that ? Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Thanks for giving some more details. And a 100$ question: What part of your parachute equipment is the strongest relatively to the maximum load it is supposed to hold????????? ah ah! Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

According you, how many jumps should have an aware and proficient jumper at landing with a rectangular canopy in order to jump a Nitron 190 after a good briefing (loaded at say 1.2) ? Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I want to make a little comment: an AAD is a pressure sentitive device which "feels" the pressure and translate it to altitude. The rate of change of pressure coupled with the internal timer gives you the vertical speed. When both altitude and speed are together reaching the firing conditions the AAD cut the closing loop of the reserve but do not garanty the launch of the pilot chute neither the opening of the reserve canopy. Generally it does but not always at 100%. I have seen in front of my nose (seat before mine) in the DC-9 at Rantoul an AAD cutting the loop with no launch of the pilot chute, the flaps were just slightly separated. Same thing happened 3 years ago or so with 3 Russians equiped with Mirage which prompted Mirage to change the location of the cutter from under to above the pilot chute to shorten the part of the closing loop being cut. This is likely to occur with cutter placed under the reserve free bag since in this configuration the part of the cut closing loop is maximum and has to zigzag thru the flaps above which are separated. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

This the difficult (getting the pilot chute compressed) part of a reserve packing. The best is to do it with somebody else holding the base of the spring well centered then you apply pressure progressively on the top of the pilot chute. When cpmpressed with preferably two hands maintain the pressure while the other person places on the top of the pilot chute a special board where a sort of slot is cut off to allow the closing loop to be pulled. Then (this is what I do) I use my positive leverage device in action by rolling the pull cord around it. When the pull cord is maintained tight by the leverage device the other person can stop applying pressure on the top of the pilot chute. Increase the force on the pull cord by rotating the device. Remove the temporary pin from under the pilot chute to place it thru the loop above the pilot chute. Then you can relax a little bit. Several riggers don't use a positive leverage device, they rather use only their feet or knees to apply pressure on the pilot chute while pulling at the closing loop. After a while you get the trick to do it alone but expect to get some pilot chute launches in the face. I have seen some riggers using a strap placed around the shoulders and chest to apply tension on the pull cord while having their hands on the top of the pilot chute. There are 2 sorts of pilot chute springs. The long ones which are not too strong but try to bend and escape sideways like the Quasar II or Mirage... and shorter strong ones which are easier to keep centered but which have a pressure going up to 45 lbs like the Vector. Is that answer your question? Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

As a rigger I have manuals related to the equipment I am taking care of including Cypres I and II manuals and I know their content. Have you realized that on a forum thread sometimes a question brings on another one? This was the case. I was answering to Winkey and added few comments about what is going on related to the AAD's war plus personal exprerience about the Vigil I. Read the precedent posts and you will see what I mean. On the other hand have you thought about being a bit more constructive and helpfull. You seem to be a frustrated person at this moment, then go at the DZ and make few good jumps, this is the best cure for that. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Thanks Winkey, so far you are the only one to give an answer to my question. Right now only France with its quite oriented politics ($$$$) influenced by some manufacturer by ($$$) is banning the Vigil I made before July 2006. I am aware of this by having talked to a French official met in Florida in March. That does not affect the Vigil II at all. I had a Vigil I bought in December 2004 and got the proof it was working properly, once at Perris Valley when I had a low pull (see Vigil's save list , I am # 17) and the second time at Rantoul when by mistake the DC-9 pilot, on the ground, pressurized the airplane without leaving a door partially open (at the rear or else). In both case my Vigil I worked as designed. This is not rumours, this is facts. I am a rigger and had a full report of what happened form Vigil's manufacturer. I also downloaded myself the data with my Vigil interface to study the graphs and everything (in both cases) was matching with what my PROTRACK was indicating and what my traditional altimeter gave me. I am really surprised that on this forum about rigging there are so many answers or statements which are far away from being facts or technically and scientifically oriented. If you are not aware or don't want to get reliable and fair information to the best of your knowledge maybe you should choose another part of this forum. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate beginners asking sincere questions and I always will be eager to answer them. But please get knowledgeable before answering. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.