jcd11235

I suspect someone did just that. Fifteen years ago, when I was on an M198 crew, the minimum acceptable uniform for a fire mission was Kevlar helmet and boots. Everything else could wait until after the rounds were downrange (if it wasn't already being worn when the fire mission was called). I'm not surprised by the t-shirt and boxers, but I bet that troop heard about leaving his boots behind by a section chief/squad leader in a manner that wasn't quite as praiseful as Sec. Gates' comments. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

The law agrees with me. Most with full use of thier minds do not agree with this either. That particular subset of people seem to unanimously agree with me here in SC (on this particular topic). Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

It would appear that you are not quite clear about what reasonable actually means. For example, thus far there have been no reasonable arguments made w/r/t torture, including water boarding, being an effective interrogation method that results in accurate, actionable information. All such arguments have been made without any supporting evidence (i.e. there is no logical reason they should be given the same credibility as the very well supported arguments to the contrary). Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

The law agrees with me. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

That part seems fairly obvious. We should wait for the good doctor to offer her expert opinion w/r/t whether it is better to make the piercing with a rusty farm implement or a surgical steel device, since the correct choice is far less obvious. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

As I have stated before, torture is a proper superset of water boarding. In other words, water boarding is torture, despite any semantical difference that Cheney, Yoo, et al. have conjured up. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

Right. In other words, you're not talking about operatives with actual experience interrogating terrorists and other suspects & detainees. Surely you can find a first hand account of some interrogation session in which the detainee gave up accurate, actionable intelligence due to being water boarded, right? It's not as though the US invented water boarding during the Bush administration. It's been done for decades, if not centuries. If it is a useful interrogation technique, one would expect to find numerous first hand accounts of it being used successfully. Marg has provided more than sufficient evidence that experienced interrogators tend to agree that torture is not effective w/r/t obtaining reliable, actionable information. Most reasonable people give him the benefit of the doubt and recognize that there are probably very good reasons to keep some documents classified, and that those reasons have nothing to do with the unsubstantiated conspiracy theories promoted by former Vice President Cheney. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

I've made the request before, and it went unfulfilled by anybody. I'll ask again. Can you please provide links to experienced interrogators claiming that torture works? Can you provide any specific examples of significant, accurate intel resulting from torture? Marg isn't picking and choosing her data, selecting only that stuff that supports her assertion. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

Oddly, they also have a history of switching to "enhanced interrogation tactics even if they are getting good results from more benign questioning, a switch that tends to end the flow of reliable, accurate information. In the real world, the shit that Jack Bauer gets away with on 24 simply doesn't work. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

Considering the fact that experience shows overwhelmingly that other interrogation methods are far more likely to result in accurate intelligence in a timely manner than can be obtained via water boarding or other methods of torture, such a job as you propose would most likely be unnecessary unless interrogators screwed up and tortured the detainees. Torturing the enemy doesn't save lives, it costs them. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

No. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

They didn't fall directly down. In other words, his disbelief appears to be based on an inaccurate account of events. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

Did those come inside boxes of cereal or did you have to save up box tops and send them in, along with shipping and handling fees? Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

I'm still waiting for such an example. Not only is water boarding torture, it is ineffective at obtaining accurate information compared with more humane methods. Real life isn't like 24. It's more like kindergarten: if someone has something that you'd like them to share with you, it's best not to be an asshole. What is naïve is to believe that water boarding belongs in the "whatever works" box of tools. Experienced interrogators claim it doesn't produce reliable intelligence. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

In many cases, it was the amateurs doing the interrogations, not the experts. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

Have you read Article VI of the Constitution lately? Some might, but those who are well informed would realize that torture is ineffective compared to other interrogation methods, and would not waste time with such inferior tactics when legal methods are known to work much better. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

Yet, many Americans appreciate the threat that is posed by American's torturing detainees, torture that takes place despite the abundance of evidence that legal, humane interrogation methods work much better if the goal is to obtain accurate intelligence from the detainees. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

I couldn't help but notice that the article failed to offer any numbers w/r/t net change in revenue after tax rate increases and the "emigration" from the state by those whose tax burden would have increased had they stayed. Those numbers seem like important data, given the implications made in the article. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

I fixed that for you, to reflect historical accuracy. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

Who said anything about an expert in torture? I didn't. No one said anything about brushing off intel. That's far different from not trusting a piece of intel to be true. If that's the case, then you are fully aware that torture is ineffective with respect to obtaining reliable and accurate intel (if you disagree, feel free to offer specific examples of interrogators successfully utilizing torture to obtain accurate and reliable intelligence). Furthermore, you should also be aware that good intel has been obtained at high success rates with more humane, legal interrogation methods. From US Army FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation: "Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear." From the masthead of United States Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association: “…despite the complexities and difficulties of dealing with an enemy from such a hostile and alien culture, some American interrogators consistently managed to extract useful information from prisoners. The successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subject. They were nice to them.” Maj Sherwood Moran, USMCR - Guadalcanal 1942” "The torture of suspects [at Abu Ghraib] did not lead to any useful intelligence information being extracted." -- LTC James Corum (Ret.) You previously mentioned the FBI. You might be interested to read: Based on his experiences interviewing Islamist radicals everywhere from New York City to Khartoum, [Jack] Cloonan [(32-year FBI veteran, whose experience included counterintelligence, counterterrorism, the Joint Terrorism Task Force)] believes that interrogations can gather intelligence that's both operationally actionable and court admissible (“nothing that shocks the conscience of the court,” as he puts it), and holds that torture -- by hands American or foreign -- is rarely ever useful or necessary. Cloonan and a New York Police Department detective secured actionable intelligence from a suspect in the foiled millennium-bombing plot in just six hours on December 30, 1999 -- by following FBI procedure, and by encouraging a suspect to pray during his Ramadan fast. The suspect even agreed to place calls to his confederates, which led to their speedy arrests. Source “If they think these methods ["enhanced interrogation," i.e., torture] work, they're woefully misinformed. Torture is counterproductive on all fronts. It produces bad intelligence. It ruins the subject, makes them useless for further interrogation. And it damages our credibility around the world.” --LTG Harry E. Soyster, USA (ret) and former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), i.e., the Defense Department's lead intelligece agency, & Commanding General of Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) More? Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. … An up-to-date illustration of the colonel's point appeared in recently released FBI documents from the naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. These show, among other things, that some military intelligence officers wanted to use harsher interrogation methods than the FBI did. As a result, complained one inspector, "every time the FBI established a rapport with a detainee, the military would step in and the detainee would stop being cooperative." So much for the utility of torture. Source Here is a quote from Lt. General John Kimmons, U.S. Army Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence. "No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices," Kimmons said. "I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the past five years, hard years, tells us that." He argued that "any piece of intelligence which is obtained under duress through the use of abusive techniques would be of questionable credibility." And Kimmons conceded that bad P.R. about abuse could work against the United States in the war on terror. "It would do more harm than good when it inevitably became known that abusive practices were used," Kimmons said. "We can't afford to go there." Kimmons added that "our most significant successes on the battlefield -- in fact, I would say all of them, almost categorically, all of them" -- came from interrogators that stuck to the kinds of humane techniques framed in the new Army manual. "We don't need abusive practices in there," Kimmons said. "Nothing good will come from them." edit to add: Thanks to [nerdgirl] for many of the links. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

Based on your unrelated response, I'm fairly sure that you did not understand my point. In the case of Cheney, it appears to be a desperate attempt at CYA. 'Fraid not. A competent military leader certainly would not treat any intel as good until proven otherwise, precisely because the lives of his troop depends on the accuracy of intel deemed to be actionable. First, taking voluntary calls is not the same as interrogating captured soldiers/militants. Second, successful veteran FBI interrogators have been among the most vocal in stating their opinion, based on professional experience, that torture is ineffective and does not provide reliable, actionable intelligence compared to other, legal interrogation methods. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

It depends on what you mean by work. If, by works, you mean that torture provides accurate, actionable intelligence to interrogators, then no, it doesn't work. If, by works you mean that torture makes it easy to obtain false confessions, then yes, torture works quite well. It is as important for our captured soldiers to avoid making false confessions as it is for them to avoid giving out legitimate intelligence when interrogated. The Cold War had a large propaganda component, so false confessions could be quite harmful. It is not naïve to listen to the wisdom of experience interrogators. They are the experts claiming torture is not an effective means of interrogation. It is naïve to believe those experienced interrogators don't know what they're talking about. Yes. It is illegal; it violates international law, and it violates the Constitution. Since torture, including water boarding, is known to not be nearly as effective as traditional, humane interrogation techniques, there's no reason to even attempt to justify its use. That would be a foolish attitude for a real military leader have. Having no intel is better than only having bad intel. With no intel, at least the military leader is aware that nothing is known. With bad intel, even that knowledge isn't available, so, effectively, even less is known. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

Clearly, yes it would (and does). Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

The information I provided in the post you initially answered...that the military *does* perform waterboarding upon it's own members. Imagine: A married couple consensually have very rough sex while engaging in Dominant/submissive role play. They use a safe word. Do you think we should consider that to be a violation of laws against domestic violence? Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

I was talking with a friend about this very thing yesterday evening during a conversation about the fine imposed on Intel by EU. Since fines are intended to discourage a particular behavior, rather than to set a price that, if paid, makes the behavior acceptable, I think income based fines are more fair, at least to society as a whole. I do think there should be a minimum fine, though, so that someone with zero income must still pay fines if found guilty of an infraction/crime that is punished with a fine. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!