IslandGuy

OK, one last post - I need to get my work done so I can go jump. Every minute I spend posting is another minute I'm not flocking. ======= But they where not looking at the direction in which they where flying. -------------- Yup - not possible on back with current technology. ========= By what you sayd about double blindman/tag they seemed to be more busy with their 2 way, then watching the other people.. ---------- Actually, they were doing both, at least that's what the videos show. But it's their eyes, so I can't say exactly what they were looking at. ======== Its not the people IN the formation you have to worry about... --------- Sometimes true. I've been hit real hard by birds that started out less than 15 feet away from me. A simple burble will make that happen. But you are right in that it is the guy that is out there lost or trying to get back in that is going to take you out big time. That type of situation is something you have little control over - best you can do is flock with birds you know and trust. ======= With rear-view mirrors? I thought the base was backflying? They are the ones navigating right? I understand navigation on my back based on the direction of sunlight, but backflying its definately not shadows on the ground you're watching. ------------ I didn't mean the shadows on the ground. I don't know if you can even see them from altitude. Rather, I meant the shadows on the flockers themselves. It's pretty natural for me to look at an illuminated object(s) and tell the direction of the source of the light. ========== Then I do hope the base was paying attention to you, as your earlier words indicated you guys where chasing, with the base just doing its own thing.. -------------- Ya, they were. And if not, I have ways to comunicate. I'm not walking home. =========== There's a big difference between a jump that went safe, and a jump that is safe ----------------- Agreed. I don’t do things (especially twice) that I think have a statistically significant chance of hurting or killing people, especially myself. Would I do that dive again? Yes. Just because you don’t understand my poor, and sometimes joking, explanation of what I saw, doesn’t make it unsafe. When you join us for some flocking some day, if you care, we’ll do it again and you can make your own decision as to the degree of safety. And, sorry about the lines and bars above, haven't got the hang of doing the quote/reply thing yet. Hope to flock with you someday! Play like your life depends on it.

I understand that part, but I usually dont have time to check out the surroundings or sunset when Im chasing people...wouldnt a steady and predictable flying base do a much better (safer) job at that? This game of backflying tag sounds like something for a 2way, with a not 100% predictable flight-path. Exactly the kind of situation that could lead to someone loosing the base while 'watching the sunset' and repeating the dangerous incident that was talked and discussed soo much the last week..? Ya, it might have been better if they were on their bellies, but I'm not sure about safer. They can fly on their back better than a lot of birds can on their bellies. Plus, they were not looking at the sunset, they were looking up at us so I don't think they would have let anyone fly into them. Plus, in a loose V formation, you don't have anyone right next to you or above/below you - more room to maneuver. Navigating at that time of day is no problem because you know where the sun is at by looking at the shadows and you can use that as a compass to fly a predictable flight path - especially since the winds were so light. And, I was the designated lookout to make sure that we didn't stray to far from home. It may have been sloppy, but everyone was there and it was safe and it was fun. Play like your life depends on it.

No clue what type of dive you're talking about? But it sounds like 2 people being all over the sky on their backs, playing with each other with a bunch of people wanting build a flock darting all over the sky trying to stay with them? Sorry if I sometimes get lost in all the hip pooping lingo.. You got it right except for the darting part - no darting. We did pretty good staying on them in a loose vertical V but they weren't making it easy.

If you can fly that thing half as good as you model it, you need to get your butt down here and visit the Z Flock... Make it soon, the weather is perfect... like how about this weekend. Play like your life depends on it.

NOT- we're flocking right now. (Except for the lightweights that drank too much and stayed up too late Monday and had to take Tuesday off and recover over at Busch Gardens). I got there at 5p and still got 3 flocks in. Larry popped the cherry of his brand new Mach 1 and he smoked it. Jason and Lurch got there and we chased Jeff around on his back in a loose diamond. Lurch kind of acted like he was reborn which leads me to believe he hadn't been in a wingsuit for a while. Long NH winter?? Then there was the sunset scrambles.

I'll probably be out there Wednesday on. There will be folks out there all week. Reading the forum, it seems that quite a few will be arriving the same time you show up. I'll bet Chuck, Jeff, Eric, Larry, James, Craig, Tero, and Sato are in a flock right now. How many folks are you flocking with at Sebastion?? Bring them with you. Camping?? You will not be alone. There are lots of tents up right now... campers and motor homes all over the place. There should be a place you can squezze into.

Excellent Scott - all those things need to be said and said again for as long as we keep seeing the videos and hearing the stories. I’ll preach some since I’ve been invited, I’m and old fart and I’ve taken enough crippling hits to know that I don’t want to take any more. In every instance I can recall, two factors have contributed to near death experiences or people getting hurt. 1. Uncontrolled flight. That is, someone inadvertently flies into burble and tumbles, or looses control (like flying too slow and stalling, spinning, overcorrecting, bad body position out the door, etc.), or is hit and taken out by someone on exit or in the formation. 3. Pilot Error. Misjudging distances, closing velocities, and personal abilities. Do what Scott said and you will go a long way in avoiding uncontrolled flight and use your most cautious judgement to avoid pilot errors. Don’t fly into another bird and don’t fly into their burble. Why the heightened attention to safety?? Most of us flock all the time – no problems. The reason is simply the heightened level of risk. The two important differences affecting risk between big flocks and little flocks are: 1. More birds = WAY MORE chances of complications. Statistically, the chance of something going wrong increases geometrically with the number of birds. Twenty birds in a flock have almost 20x the opportunities for interaction (bad things to happening) than a flock of five. The sky will be filled with bodies – you do the math. 2. When there is a burble/tumble/collision incident, in a small flock, usually only two birds are involved. In a big flock, it can turn into a train wreck in a heartbeat. We all go to F&D to return home with awesome memories. Being as safe as you can will help make that possible – it’s fun but it isn’t worth dying for. Watch out for and take care of your fellow bird, help your fellow bird. We make this all happen together. Play like your life depends on it.

Brian, I'll do a hi-alt load w/ ya. Count me in. -Mike Play like your life depends on it.

I called the Z-Hills office and they told me so. Last I heard was that there was still a possibility it would show up, so that's why I even inquired. Play like your life depends on it.

Hey Lurch, We were jumping yesterday (started late but still got 7 flocks in

Hey Avery, Glad you could make it and brighten our skies. Also, the DZ has confirmed that the lone Casa will be showing up Monday morning to complement the bunch of Otters. Play like your life depends on it.

Hi Boris, Very interesting observations and views. I had not ever really given it much thought. However, after reading the posts, what comes to mind is that there are two very different ways of flying wingsuits, and Chuck points this out in the previous post. (and I apologize if this is obvious to everyone but me) You can flock or you can fly (maxing it out so to speak). It reminds me very much of the two very different realms of belly flying, first the relative work, and then, the tracking off to pull. It is really what we do in flocking without even thinking about it. When flocking, you fly your slot, you control your suit in whatever way you can to place your body exactly where it needs to be in the formation. You track the base (or your designated reference) as best you can in three dimensions. Then at pull time, you track, slowly, head toward your break-off direction, and then, transition into a maximum performance flight (best GR) configuration. Both RW and Max-Flight skills are required when flocking. Either way, being good in one realm can only help in the other. What has become apparent though is that when you are flying alone, you can do whatever you want, but, if there is one other object in the sky, you best have the skills to be aware and fly with them or the result might not be so good. I'll add that I fly with a GPS and a Neptune. Data points taken every second and/or every 3 or 4 seconds, and , I do look at the results. If I am flying base, I want to see a flat line vertical speed on the Neptune, If I am flying solo and going max, I want to see a GR that is less than 30 degress on the GPS. There are times when I thought I flew a great base and when you look at the data, it is not pretty, Then again, the opposite has been true. Using the electronics is a good way to calibrate your brain. After all, at this point, our brain is pretty much the only instrument we have up there that gives us real-time feedback, and it works better calibrated. I take data for fun. I'm old, so, if it isn't fun for me, I'm probably not doing it.

Jeff and I were just talking about this yesterday. I'll be collecting GPS data on him one day next week when he gets back from the Sebastion boogie. I don't believe Jeff has Paralog, but, like Chuck suggested, a picture of the Neptune summary screen would provide good comparative data. I'll gladly post the results when I get the plots. Stay tuned. --Mike Play like your life depends on it.

Fights?? I think not. I heard the caring and compasionate tone in his voice.

FRIENDLY REMINDER: LAST DAY TO REGISTER FOR $35. Tomorrow it's $45. Either way it's a bargain. Caw Caw...

but the flour was ok?.. or was it pancake mix. i can't remember. hey that's all that the store had!, we had to be creative Sumpin tells me there's going to be breaded chicken at F&D. Play like your life depends on it.

Omar, At F&D 2.5, you seemed to be enjoying the big flocks - especially that triple penetration. Anyhow, I really liked that video. Play like your life depends on it.

Matt - one word - AWESOME!!! Thanks for the memories!

Thanks for the clarification and answers. It does bring to light the importance of understanding the individual roles and responsibilities that I think many of us who fly in groups on a regular basis automatically assume. Starting with the base, it's the base's responsibility to set a constant fall rate/flight speed, navigate, see and avoid traffic (aircraft, open canopies, etc.), and signal break-off, not to look out for other flockers. The rest of the birds are either in the formation or out of the formation. If they are in the formation, their responsibility is to fly their slot, not look out for other flockers. If they are out of the formation, their responsibility is to look out for other flockers (including the designated cameramen) and to get to their slot while avoiding traffic conflicts and collisions. As Matt said "it would be semantic to argue whether you were moving toward the base or the base was moving toward you". Regardless, if you are not in the formation, then it is your responsibility to fly clear of it or approach it cautiously to get to your slot. If the formation is flying at you, then you get out of the way. I can think of no exceptions to this. Another good point is apparent closing velocities. Judging this accurately can be difficult at the beginning and so makes it so much more important to make your approaches slow, err on the side of caution. IMO, this is one of the more important reasons for the 200 jump rule. By 200, one usually has enough exposure to judging relative motion in 3 dimensions (in RW or freefly, canopy flying, and landing) that it is possible to make the transition to wingsuits safely. Again, thanks for sharing your experience with us all. Play like your life depends on it.

13.5 is the norm. Yup, we're spoiled. And a tailgate would spoil us rotten. Play like your life depends on it.

I got to the DZ late yesterday but still managed to get 4 in. On a couple of the loads I was flocking with Mickey who was driving the Otter. We managed to hang together for about 2000 feet, I in the inside of a circling formation. The point of this being that afterwards I was talking with him and he related some coordinated flying he did with Jeff earlier in the week. Jeff was descending so slowly that Mickey was easily able to make 3 different on-level passes with Jeff throughout the duration of the descent. Well, with Jeff's near 3 1/2 minute flights (and getting longer), he is pretty much the gold standard here at the Hills. I was out collecting some GPS & Neptune data on the Mach 1 and the S3 maxing them out to compare performance, so it gave me a chance to see how close I could come to him. At 195 I know I'll ever get the kind of float he or Perry does, but I and others might stand a chance on glide ratio or distance covered. My lead butt is still looking forward to the F&D Challenge.

Word on the street is that there still MAY be a CASA at F&D. If so, I'm sure there will be room on the plane for a solo spot, especially after the 30-way has left. Play like your life depends on it.

I tumbled to dodge the upper jumper that I couldn't see. Lessons to be learned: don't trust anyone. I think if either one or both of you had died there would be much more discussion about what happened and how it could have been prevented. But, since you both lived, I don't think that should stop us from looking at this objectively and learning something. However, so far, IMO there just isn't enough information. Maybe all involved could help shed some light on what took place. There must have been some post-dive bebrief. What would cause you to tumble to avoid another flyer that you did not see? Also, I don't see how trust has anything to do with what I saw in the video, but, an explanation might clear that up. How did you come to pass so close to the base at such a high speed? Did you loose track of them (I believe there were 3 others in the flock) or did you misjudge the closing velocity as you were trying to rejoin the group? Glad you are all here with us to talk about this. Play like your life depends on it.

You can bet on that Joni. It will be real nice to see old friends again and to see the improved skills, new suits, meet some new folks, and make some loads that are unlike what we do every weekend - that's what it's all about. There will be something for everyone... small ways, big ways, 3-d, tight flying, docking, aerobatics, max performance, suit demos, first time student wingsuit classes and coaching, you name it. If you find yourself getting bored with it all, go find Omar and conspire to create something new and interesting. That's really why we keep him around, not just because we like him. Play like your life depends on it.

Choose on-line or mail-in "PDF" form at the bottom. Again - Registration is $35 through March 16th. After March 16th it is $45. (Both those prices are for cash or check - for credit card, their charges are added to that.) This includes: T-Shirt Door Prizes Dinner Friday and Saturday Beer Saturday Drawings for free wingsuit, free gear bag, jump tickets, & ??? Plus more. Plus possibly the best wingsuit fun you will have this year. Just spoke w/ Rob and he indicated that there has been a recent flurry of registration activity - which is good. The sooner everyone gets registered, the sooner the organizers/sponsors/DZ can get plans in place. Need to know how many shirts to order, mouths to feed, demos to bring, etc., etc. You know you are going to be there - so sign-up now if you haven't! See all you Flockers in 3 weeks (or less). Caw - caw... --Mike Play like your life depends on it.