377

I did a lot of jumping on a tired porous C9 cheapo rag in the late 60s. It was all I could afford in my starving student days. I NEVER was able to do a stand up, just hit too damned hard. Stood up my first PC jump and nearly every subsequent one (no downwind landings though). What an amazing difference. I thought nothing could be finer, then the squares really started taking hold. Now I think nothing could be finer (for a cautious old guy who doesn't swoop) than my Triathlon 190. What's next? 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

There is a GREAT book on Japanese attacks on the US mainland during WW 2 called Silent Siege. Written by a university professor and has lots of photos. There were attacks on the Pacific NW, by sub launched float planes (watertight "hanger" on deck) and by subs which shelled shore targets including a lighthouse. All attacks were ineffective. No records of paradrops of spys. Japan did launch many FUGU balloon bombs that rode the jetstream to the US. They killed a few people who found landed balloons and handled them, but were ineffective weapons. They had hoped to set massive fires with the FUGUs but when the jetstream was favorable for Japan to US balloon flights, the Pacific NW was drenched in winter moisture. http://air-combat.suite101.com/article.cfm/japanese_balloon_bombs_of_wwii 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Hoop, You'd love the guy who I frequently see driving in my area behind the wheel of a big raised monster truck (you know, the kind with multiple shocks and the cab 3 feet off the ground). His truck has LOTS of skydiving stickers. I know for a fact his only jumping experience has been as a tandem passenger. Can he post here with your blessing? My car has only a tiny quarter sized Alti-2 sticker on the lower corner of the rear window. Non jumpers don't know what it is but it is enough to strike up parking lot or gas station conversations with jumpers who see it. It even got me out of a speeding ticket once from a cop who jumped. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Ckret, You gotta love this one since bank robbers are your specialty. Yesterday, an elderly man estimated to be at least in his 70s held up the Wachovia Bank at the Stanford Shopping Center in Palo Alto CA. The robber entered and exited in a motorized WHEELCHAIR!! Witnesses said that the wheelchair appeared truly needed, not a prop, as the robber had extensive bandaging or bracing on his legs. The amazing part is that he made a successful getway through a crowded shopping center and has not been apprehended. Hope your colleagues from the local office are hot on the trail Larry. You know, we can't rule out Cooper. Right age, leg injuries (rough landing), and would be running out of money about now... 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Dr. Sluggo, It's anecdotal, no statistical validity, but I flew PSA a lot back in the early 70s, smiling planes and barely clad stews. The planes were seldom crowded, waaay less than todays flights. I never got bumped. I liked their 727s, fast and overpowered. They had a few Lockheed Electras in the system even in the mid 70s. Liked them too. I get stuck on Cooper themes and right now I am glued to the issue of how he found out that you could jump from a 727. Maybe it is like my SAGE radar addiction and will amount to nothing. I am convinced Cooper was no skydiver. Ckret's conclusions from Cooper's gear choices is correct in my opinion. Also, if he was a jumper he likely would have been figured out by others and word would have spread. That never happened. I have not been able to confirm that Boeing was the sole source of info on the ability to deploy a 727 rear door in flight at the time of Cooper's hijack, still digging. I like out of the box thinkers, like those who said Cooper never existed and that the crew faked the whole thing. We need some more unconventional intellects pondering this mystery. Every time I get a cold windy rainy night I put myself in Cooper's shoes. That guy sure had balls. It would have been so scary to step off those stairs into the night and then it would get even scarier as you tumbled wildly and lost all attitude orientation. Then you try and find the ripcord... it just goes from scary to terrifying and beyond. I wonder what Ckret thinks about Coopers courage profile? Should we rule out wimpy guys? Could a shy, cautious withdrawn person have made the leap? Do those types ever rob banks? I know that some criminals get really scared doing crimes. More than a few robbers have soiled their pants when things didn't go as they had planned. Maybe that explains Cooper's trip to the bathroom. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I just had a beautiful fantasy…. Bring together a roomful of people who are out-of-the-box thinkers. You know, really weird people, like artist, computer programmers, psychiatrist, software engineers, actors, Billy Bob Thornton, etc. Give them all the records on the case and tell them; “No Pepsi and pizza until you solve the case!.” That will lead to a solution, QUICKLY. Sluggo_Monster (out-of-the-box) Dr. Sluggo, I think that's exactly how Google develops new products. I like Jo's suggestion that the FBI consult Ralph Hatley. He is in Oregon, knows really a LOT about old gear and probably has some interesting perspectives. Two risks though in dealing with Ralph: 1. He will sell you some jump gear, despite your best efforts not to purchase anything. You will get a decent price though, just need to go through a protracted haggling ritual. 2. If he thinks you are a liberal Democrat you may disappear without a trace. Ralph don't like anything left of rabid conservative. I'd bet Ralph has everthing short of RPG's and TOW missiles in his personal arsenal. As far as Ckret's approach being suboptimal, I'd withhold judgment until we know more. I used to defend criminals and developed a healthy respect for FBI agents and their investigative techniques. They do make mistakes, they do miss key evidence, but generally a lot less often than their state colleagues. They don't reveal all their techniques or strategies and have done some pretty innovative things to solve crimes. Sure it varies agent to agent, but they are pretty smart as a whole. I am not trying to kiss up to Ckret, just calling it how I saw it back when I had a lot of interaction with that side of the legal system. Some cops just have a feel for solving certain kinds of crimes. They pick up on subtle clues that escape the rest of us. There was a cop in Oakland who used to nail stolen vehicles before they even reached the hot sheet, and no, these were not all 16 year old black kids driving brand new Porsches. He'd call in the plates, they'd come back clean and he'd ask the dispatcher to contact the owner. The owner would say the car was in the garage or parked on the street. The dispatcher would ask them to visually confirm it and they would be astonished to find it GONE. If Boeing was the only source of flight test info on the 727 in flight door deployment and did not disseminate this in publications, then Cooper must have had a Boeing connection. Although Ckret thinks Cooper was no genius, I don't think Cooper was so dumb as to pull the hijack on the mere hope that he could jump from the plane... he must have known that it could be done. 377, as in Boeing377, the 747 of the 1950s. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

My retired NWA 727 training captain is available for more questions if anyone has some. He joined NWA after the Cooper case but is a 727 expert and has contacts with older NWA retirees. I was amazed to read about how many Cooper copycat hijacks occurred. The craziest one occurred in the Phillipines. The hijacker exited wearing a HOMEMADE chute that shredded on opening. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Isn't Amy a physician? Good day at the clinic $x. Good day at the DZ $x/20. You gotta love a doc who rigs. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Well, at least we have part of this case solved. You have just described an engineer. priceless! and so right on. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Darn! Back to work watching better minds than mine try to figure out this maddening mystery. Didn't some hoaxers con Newsweek or some big mag into paying them big bucks for a Cooper story by showing the editor (counterfeit) $20 bills with serial numbers matching the Cooper list? This was a few years ago, before the real money find. I think they actually went to jail over this. I have an old 28 foot canopy and I can get Cooper's canopy serial number. Sluggo and Safecrackin PLF's analyses have given me some good burial sites, but I am sticking to my guns and putting it just a tad upstream from Tina Bar. That'll show them who was right about the flight path. Now if I could only figure out how to remove the real serial number and screen the Cooper one into the canopy... Do they have Adobe Photoshop for ripstop nylon? 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Unless someone has a 727 flight manual that differs from my Continental 727-100 contents, Cooper had to look elsewhere to find that a 727 rear stair can be deployed in flight. Where is "elsewhere"? Boeing? anywhere else? Cooper may have been an idiot and boarded the 727 with just a hope and no proof that the stairs could be deployed in flight, but that is VERY doubtful given all his knowledge and generally correct instructions about flaps, gear, pressure and airspeed. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Here is the NWA 727 training captain's reply: Mark, I can see why there is no mention of in flight operation of the airstair. If there was any mention of it would be in the B-727 original AFM or Approved Flight Manual. I’m sure every operator of 727s wanted no part of some idiot ferrying one of their airplanes someplace without passengers and deciding to try the airstair in flight. Depending on Mr. Cooper’s intellect had he been researching a way to exit a 727 he would only have to fly someplace without a jetway and check the stairs out for himself. If he had any parachute training the rest would be simple. The stairs are extended with 3000 lbs of hydraulic pressure from 2 fairly powerful electric pumps. His only difficult would have been if the pilots were going way too fast and there again any parachute training would have given him a target airspeed. I’m not sure if I have been any help but if I can help anymore just email me. S 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

hmmm, if that quote is verbatim then it's possible that Cooper didn't know as nearly as much about 727 in flight stair deployment as I had presumed. If I am reading my 727 manual correctly, the only controls are in the rear, OUTSIDE of the pressure bulkhead door. Nothing door related in the cockpit other than warning lights for doors ajar and cabin pressure loss. Man, this is frustrating. With Cooper's apparently savvy instruction about pressurization, flap angles, airspeed , gear down etc, I'd peg him as having studied the matter very carefully before the hijack, yet his comment about opening the rear door from the cockpit says otherwise. Could it be that Cooper only read the Boeing info about the flight test results with the stairs deployed and did not study a systems manual that detailed where the switches were located for opening the rear door and lowering the stairs? Might be a clue there. I am beginning to seriously consider a Boeing connection, something which Ckret mentioned. I have emailed a former NWA 727 training captain to ask him whether info on in flight stair deployment was in manuals or a part of NWA's 727 training syllabus at the time of the hijack. No reply yet. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

From what I have seen of kelp and other "stuff" that goes through dredges and ends up in what the dredgers call spoils (the output), I do not think the found money went through a dredge pump, it's just waaaay too "intact". Kelp (an aquatic plant) gets mangled and cut, but not totally macerated or shredded. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I got a tour of an Army Corps of Engineers dredge once. It was basically a ship with a HUGE centrifugal water pump, a suction hose and a discharge hose. Pretty large objects can make it through these types of pumps without jamming which is why centrifugal (rather than gear or flexible impeller pumps) are used in so called "trash pumps". The ride through the system would be violent and highly abrasive if sand were being dredged. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Archimides would have loved this specific gravity debate. Let's not forget salinity, might have been some chloride ions seeping into the river from mineral deposits or storm runoff. I think there is a potential PhD thesis lurking in modeling the bag transport. We might have to call him Dr. Sluggo soon. I still wonder about the amazing astounding almost unbelieveable coincidence of the money find, but can find nothing suspicious about those who made it. It is like someone playing on Wakiki beach finding Amelia Earhart's pilot's license buried in the sand. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Doubt if manuals would talk about the prior drop tests with large boxes (2 To 3 HND LBS). Sounds to me like MSP FLT OPS was on the phone with someone at Boeing who was familar with the original flight test specifics. If the info about in flight door/stair deployment was not in published manuals, then it really narrows down availability and therefore access. Does anyone on this forum think that Cooper took a gamble on the door and didnt know whether or not it could be opened in flight? I think the possibility is near zero. Cooper knew that the door could be opened in flight. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like even the 727 pilots were uncertain about this and had to check with NWA flight ops. Cooper knew about the door from access to flight test information which originated at Boeing. Whether it was subsequently disseminated to 727 customers/operators and therefore widely available should be looked into. If it stayed only at Boeing then we can look at who had access and fits the cooper Profile. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

At the time of Cooper's jump, where could you find information regarding in flight operation of a 727 rear stair? I have a Continental Airlines 727 flight manual from that era and it does not have this information. Cooper MUST have known that the door could be opened during flight, otherwise he would be trapped until the plane landed. How did he research this? Where did the information reside? NWA operations knew it and informed the pilot, so it must have been in some publication. I assume Boeing did the original flight tests with the open door, so the info would reside there for sure, but where else? Ckret's guess that Cooper perhaps worked for Boeing at some time isn't a bad one. from Wikipedia: The Boeing C-22 was a US military version of the Boeing 727. The C-22B, a 727-100, was the primary medium-range aircraft used by the Air National Guard and National Guard Bureau to airlift personnel. They operated 3 Boeing 727-100 aircraft (C-22B). They also operate 1 Boeing 727-200 (C-22C). Perhaps Cooper was in the Air Guard and had access to C-22 manuals. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Successful night jet jump at 262 kts? A farmer finds over $500K in cash and calls the FBI? Amazing facts. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jump below 200 feet without a static line and live? I never thought it was possible until reading the above post. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Odd, and definitely not a transceiver. Doubt if any law enforcement types would be sporting a big transistor radio with a telescoping antenna. Despite the lack of utility, it just looks too uncool and ambitious agents do pay attention to appearance. Your chances of getting promoted to SAC or deputy director would be harmed if you looked like a complete geek when deployed on a high profile case. Great to have Ckret back. I agree with him 100000% that no skydiver would opt for the NB6 rig without reserve D rings if a Pioneer sport rig with reserve D rings were available. 2 chances to live versus one. Easy choice. Also a reserve offers you a way down from a tree, just throw it out, climb out of the harness and shinny down the lines. Surely a skydiver jumping over a rural area would have considered that. Although I initially thought that the found canopy had no relation to Cooper, the fact that the FBI can't release all the info about it yet makes me wonder. Maybe there is a connection and they are doing further investigation. I don't put much credence in the low loud jet heard by some witnesses being the Cooper 727. VERY unlikely that they would be flying really close to terrain except for landing and takeoff. Maybe it was the interceptors. F 106s were LOUD!! Kinda surprised that the F 106 chase planes couldn't intercept the 727. They can match speeds with a 727 without much trouble. F 106s were able to refuel from KC 97 prop driven tankers (at least according the the KC 97 dash one flight manual) which were much slower and also from KC 135 tankers (basically Boeing 707s) which had speed profiles similar to the 727. F 106s received in flight refueling mods during an upgrade in the late 1960s. F 106s from McChord did the first operational in flight refueling of the type during a deployment to Korea connected with the Pueblo crisis. Maybe the F 106s broke off the 727 intercept due to poor visibility and the associated danger. F 106s did a practice intercept off the east coast in reduced visibility, collided with the target Beechcraft, and killed the passengers. It was ugly, they found human hair and scalp stuck to part of the F106 that hit the Beech. At the risk of wrath from those on this forum who have devoted a lot of time and intelligence to tracing the flight path, I still stubbornly cling to my assertion that the found money got there naturally and that if the flight path info we have says that natural transport to the find site was impossible, then we need to revise the flight path. So far my opinion is: Cooper was not a skydiver. Cooper had studied Boeing 727 systems in considerable detail. He KNEW that the stairs could be deployed in flight. That was NOT a widely know fact. He knew that in flight stair deployment meant that the plane would have to be depressurized or flown unpressurized. He knew about appropriate flap angles, gear down and airspeeds. He was a loner. He needed money, a lot of it and quick. Gambling? Drugs? Divorce? Foreclosure? Who knows, but I do not think he did it just as a payback to NWA or as any kind of statement. He needed cash. This may have been his first jump and if so, he sure had balls. With a 28 ft canopy stuffed tight into an NB6 container he had a REALLY hard pull for sure and may have gone in undeployed. If you have never had a hard pull on a ripcord rig I can tell you it is a scary event. MUCH scarier if you have no reserve. Scarier yet if you are unstable. If you are at all prone to panic, a hard pull is DEFINITELY gonna ignite MAJOR panic and panic impedes performance. Been there, done that as a solo freefall student back in the day before AFF. Glad to see the forum liven up again. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I am not a rigger but I jumped a lot of surplus gear back in the late 60s. I had some really hard pulls with sleeved 28 ft C9s packed in non extended containers that were made for 28 ft canopies. After I got an extended container pulls were normal. I can only imagine how hard a pull you'd get with a 28 ft canopy in an NB6 container. Add night, fear, bad weather, high speed, inexperience, instability etc and the odds of a successful jump go down, way down. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I am not a pilot, but I thought we came pretty close to a bad outcome on that one. It felt like the plane was almost out of control directionally. Maybe it wasn't really as bad as we thought in back. Perhaps a DC 3 driver can tell us how dangerous an unlocked tail wheel takeoff really is. I am pretty sure we took out some lights before getting airborne. I think those folks on Fat Annie's first WFFC flight came closer to meeting God than we did. The guys on the air boss platform told me that the Carvair cleared the trees by no more than ten feet and probably less. Hot air temp can be a real bitch when you at max gross. Less lift and less engine power. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

For Jo's peace of mind I kinda hope Duane Weber was Dan Cooper, but I just have not seen evidence that convinces me that he was. Cooper knew a lot about planes and at least a little about jumping. I have seen no evidence that Duane Weber had that specialized knowledge or experience. I am keeping an open mind though. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.