Mockingbird

Silly request I admit -- mostly off the cuff. But how does that equate me to one who believes that "self is the only thing that can be verified?" Steve, don't let them put words in your mouth. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

You can't prove a negative. Any first year debater knows that. That's why this type of argument isn't allowed in a court of law to my knowledge. That argument can be used to try to prove the existence of Santa. Stevorino didn't ask for PROOF. He asked for evidence. (Any first year debater should know the difference between evidence and proof!!!) Nothing wrong with asking for someone to give the evidence he/she has that something doesn't exist. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Whoever said there was? That's your strawman. None of us have ever made that claim. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

FINALLY, you are starting to get it! I know some of my Christian bothers and sisters believe there is a lot of evidence to validate their belief, but the fact remains, despite the evidence or lack thereof, faith is required to experience God. Hebrews 11:6 in the Message paraphrase: It's impossible to please God apart from faith. And why? Because anyone who wants to approach God must believe both that he exists and that he cares enough to respond to those who seek him Steveorino, just so there's no misunderstanding--- While it is true that I believe that the biblical texts, history, eyewitness testimony, and archeology provide adequate evidence to back up my faith, it is also true that the object of all this evidence (God) can't be seen with human eyes--- yet I implicitly trust Him and the claims of His Son. The revelation of God and the claims of His Son are contained within a written record. If these biblical texts had not been so accurately preserved throughout hundreds of years of hand-copying (in which countless mistakes could've been so easily made); if there were no archeological discoveries which validate people, places, and things I've read about in these texts; if its historical content wasn't corroborated in any secular histories; and if the eyewitness testimonies of Christ's life didn't exist---- how would I know that the bible is true? how would I know that the one on whom my trust (faith) rests is real? I don't have solid proof, because I can't see with my eyes and feel with my hands the Christ that John and Peter experienced. But that's where my faith comes in. I trust that their portrayal of Him is accurate and God-inspired; and I trust that the claims they said He made are true; therefore, I trust Him to be the way, the truth, and the life for me. Without His intervention (by death and resurrection), I would still be separated from the Father and spiritually dead as a doornail. I owe everything to Jesus Christ. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

The description of God [above] that Broken posted is a fairly accurate description of the God that Paj and MB believe in - it says so right at the top of his post. Paj and MB are some hard core fundamentalists, jakee, and br0k3n: SpeedRacer is right-- br0k3n's depiction of God is distorted, yet he challenges us to defend it. (And frankly, whoever started this thread gave a distorted view of Fundamentalism... but then it wasn't meant to be taken seriously, right? It was solely composed for the dz.com pagans' entertainment.) Jakee, who are you to tell anyone that the depiction of God above is an accurate description of the God I believe in? Apparently you haven't been following my part of the discussion very closely... Which is fine as long as you don't put words in my mouth. I will let Paj defend his own beliefs, but I sure don't recall his ever characterizing the God of scripture in that way. I really dislike how insidious y'alls tactics have become. It sure would be fun to have a fair debate some day.

As long as you're still breathing, there's hope. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Sorta' like satan did: "Hath God said????" Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

You're erring by trying to judge God by your own shortsighted standards. When I say that God is incapable of doing evil, I mean that God's nature is just and righteous (have you ever had "righteous indignation"?) and therefore any action which might seem to us to be evil, CANNOT be evil--- the problem is with our perspective. Believe me, I understand your quandary. The difference is that I am certain of God's moral perfection; so I form my opinions of the things He does based on the certainty of His moral perfection. Because He is a just God, He is justified in whatever He does. Education has nothing to do with it. And I don't need to convince people; the Holy Spirit is the one who convinces. I just respond to them; when they ask or when they misrepresent scripture I feel an obligation. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Ah, BUT-- if you knew that the script related historical fact, the script would be trustworthy. Christianity's critics, especially in the past 50 years, have revised history and distorted facts and downplayed the archeological and textual discoveries/evidence, that skeptics and atheists (who frankly want to remain in the dark and want the bible and Christianity to be disproven) think they have good reason for their skepticism. All external evidence and reference has NOT vanished... this is simply not true. And Calculus makes no sense to me; but that doesn't make it untrue. If I really wanted to understand it and got my college Math-teaching friend to tutor me, it might start to make sense. There's a bit of truth to the old saying that God will help those who help themselves. (A true conservative must have come up with that ) Seeking truth isn't just a mental exercise-- there's a spiritual aspect to it, in that God will enlighten a mind and a will that search for truth about Him and the way He chose to reveal Himself to us--- in nature and in the bible and, especially, through Christ whom He sent into the world. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Thank you for your patience, ntacfreefly. I didn't remember your asking these questions. The "insults" I recall came from others... the usuals. As for: My answer would be that I think you have a misunderstanding of the nature of God's plan. He hasn't predetermined everything that is to take place in the world throughout all time, like drawing a blueprint that everything conforms to. Scripture talks about man as a "free moral agent" (as theologians would call it). God gives man choices, options. God doesn't program each of us to make certain choices; the choices are up to us. How could God hold us accountable for the choices we make if we aren't free to make them? As for: Again, I think you're thinking of God's plan as though it's a blueprint with every little detail prescribed by Him. I really can't even think of a portion of Scripture that discusses anything that even resembles the type of plan you're talking about. As for: I think you've arrived at the wrong conclusion because your presupposition was "off." Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

If this is how you view Christianity, I can see why you think it's ridiculous. But to answer your question, yes, I find the Trek cult fiction ridiculous. But we know the authors of this piece of science fiction, and we know that they intended their creation to be seen as fiction. Not so with the biblical authors... They were writing as God revealed Himself and His truth to them. You have every right to believe that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My own internal bullshit-o-meter, logic, deductive reasoning, the laws of nature, and apply all that and more to the claims made by religious folk. That sort of thing. You have a lot of confidence in yourself to think yourself capable of understanding God without His help. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

In God's economy, Yes, it was justice. (I take it you haven't read the whole story.) Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

God is incapable of doing evil. It isn't in his nature. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I love it, Paj. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Cross-referencing scripture is a perfectly solid course for a student of it to follow. One author says This; and another author says This. They back each other up. Like I said, I always go to them for answers. Where do you expect me to go for answers to questions about God... and (more recently in our discussion) prayer? If I want objective truth about God, the bible is the place to go. Where do you go for answers about God? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

The one that always comes to mind first for me is one that I never saw the ending to--- or maybe it was so creepy I blocked it out of my memory? Naaa. It's one about a grandfather clock, and as I recall the owner had to keep it ticking, 'cos if it stopped, he'd die. He got pretty frantic about keeping it wound. Maybe someone knows the ending??? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Hmm interesting, in that case you must consider none of these to be "evil works?" is that correct... God is incapable of being or doing evil. He is a God of justice and gives men and women multiple opportunities to repent of their sins and bring themselves into harmony with Him. When I get a chance to re-read these incidents you refer to, I imagine that I will find that God acted in justice. Have you checked them yourself to see if God was simply "on a killing spree" or if He had been sinned against but gave ample opportunity for repentance? 1. How many men did God kill because someone decided to peek into the ark of the Lord? – Answer 50,070, Samuel 6:19 2. How many men did Moses kill in one day because they failed to say they supported God? – Answer 3000, Exodus 32:26-28 3. How many people did God kill in a plague before someone pleased God by ending a mixed marriage with the murder of the couple? – Answer 24,000 Numbers 25:6-9 4. How many animals did Solomon kill in a sacrifice to please the Lord? – Answer 120,000 sheep and 22,000 oxen Kings 8:6 5. How many Israelites did God deliver to the people of Judah to slaughter? – Answer (this is a big one) Half a Million (500,000) Chronicles 13:15-1 6. Notwithstanding the above, how many people of Judah were once killed or enslaved because they didn’t give God his due? – Answer 120,000 valiant men were killed and 200,000 women and children were taken as slaves Chronicles 28:6-8 7. How many Ethiopians did God kill for His chosen people? –Answer 1 Million Chronicles 14:8-1 8. Speaking of God’s chosen people, how many kings were maimed in God’s name? – Answer 70 had their thumbs and big toes cut off Judges 1:5-7 9. How many soldiers did God burn to death with fire from Heaven because they confronted Elijah? Answer 150 (three sets of 50) Chronicles 1:10-14 10. By the time God gets through with his killing spree, how many dead will there be? – Answer Enough to cover the entire surface of the Earth Jeremiah 25:33 Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Do you really think that Christians want to think that they are the center of creation? "Everything that exists MUST have been created to save them from themselves"? I have to admit, I've never heard this one before! Feel free to elaborate, OK? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

You and others have raised interesting questions about God? Where? I recall some insults, but no actual questions. I've made no "brazen claims"-- only communicated what scripture says. As for backing them up, I get slammed when I quote my source--- or haven't you noticed? The scriptures are the only authority (not a church or a pope, priest, etc.) I've chosen to follow. There is no higher authority than scripture... and scripture speaks for God. If scripture doesn't come across as "a consistent set of rules" for you, I... well, I don't know what to tell you. God is beyond human reason at times, though I don't believe Him to ever go against reason. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I apologize if I come off sounding arrogant. I hope everyone will believe me when I say it isn't arrogance. I know where I came from and I have nothing to be arrogant about. I am certain about some things, however; and often certainty, to those who don't have it or think it even CAN be "had", can sound like arrogance. Please excuse me from the discussion now, as I have to go to work. Whoopie. This is much more interesting. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Could you give me an example of the above? Don't get me wrong, I'm not beyond having logical inconsistencies, BUT when caught in one it's never my intention to hide behind a bible verse. If I respond to someone's objections to my line of thought with a bible verse, it's because I think it adequately addresses the objection-- not because, as you say, it "magically resolves the inconsistencies." You really don't like those bible verses, do you? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Correction: The truth doesn't make sense to YOU. This is due to no fault of the truth or the one who gave the truth and IS the truth (God). Have you studied it? Even Aldous Huxley would agree with the principle that "Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know." Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

No slip at all on my part. You are reading into the story by twisting words and projecting evil motives onto God. You are wrong. But as usual, you want to find a loophole that you think will save you. I'm not playing your deceptive little word games, Vercetti. Haven't we been over this before? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Oh ho! You were raised catholic. You've had your share of discomfort, eh? The funny thing is that the discomfort we anticipate feeling if we "let" God into our lives, is a mirage. He is actually extremely loving, kind, and liberating!! Not to say that He doesn't expect His children to do difficult things--- things that sometimes don't come naturally for human beings--- but He gives us the grace and love to do them. Quite different from what a catholic schoolmaster might require... unless he's Bing Crosby. By the way, I don't stand behind a church's authority or claims as you seemed to imply... I'm not a church member, and haven't been for 17 years. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I love this thread! That does have to be one of the funniest lines ever written in any of these religious threads. (Sorry, Mockingbird.) I understand why it might cause a smile, especially when taken out of the context, which people are so fond of doing these days if it will get them a laugh or help them not to take the issue seriously. So, no offense taken. We think we have a problem understanding the bible, or thinking it's incoherent, when the real problem is our own self-inflicted ignorance. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"