RackJR

awww, you say the nicest things. i'll let you have that one, it probably stung that someone with 400 jumps is that much better than you with 6300. so i won't bring up the past, where you showed your ass at the tunnel, with no class at all. but lets not get too far from the topic, which is tunnel flight, and will it be a passing fad. for people to know about what someone like Derek can do, with that few jumps, pretty much guarantees that it's not a fad. you learn correctly, you learn safely, and as Derek attests to, you learn fast. well, most people do JP. don't feel bad. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

hey JP try telling that to Derek Cox. he exited nearly last (and i only say nearly because i'm not 100% sure he was dead last, but i think he was) on the world record freefly event this past summer. with less than 350 jumps, but copious tunnel time, he got to the formation before many other skydivers with thousands more jumps than he had, docked with annoying ease, and tracked off. oh and by the way, for some of us, the successful jump was record attempt #14. for Derek, who was on the sidelines most of the time, that was attempt #1. his first try. you said tunnel flyers are "pretty lost" on certain jumps. he even found his slot, on the biggest freefly jump in history, with no practice. so to sum up, on his first attempt at anything bigger than a 9 way freefly (i know because i was on that one with him) he left last from a trail plane, docked earlier than people who had left their plane long before him, broke off and tracked away, all safely, with the skills of 350 skydives, and 1000 hours of tunnel time. he did fly a rather loud safire 149 to the ground, slider flapping, straight in with a big smile. bodyflight is bodyflight, however you try to wrap it differently, or bash what it teaches you. the tunnel teaches you bodyflight. Derek has a lot more tunnel time than you do JP, and 1/10 the skydives, and he absolutely will wipe the floor with you in freefall. good talking to you again. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

just a matter of the right investor, or group of investors, to feel like you do. I'm sure Alan will be ready to put one there whenever that group approaches him. :) Say what you mean. Do what you say.

hey Matty, i didn't read the whole thread, but wanted to give you a couple things about wind tunnels. hopefully i'm not repeating things too badly. skyventure colorado gives return flyers a basic rate of $15 per minute, when you buy a minimum of 5 minutes. typically skydivers are not charged full price even on their first flight, but given the return flyer rate immediately. so by cost comparison, (jumps in longmont colorado are $23), it's cheaper. i think the more important aspects are somewhat less tangible. first, still tangible and easy to understand, a typical freefall is not 60 seconds, so the cost/minute of tunnel time goes down again. from there, you move into the ability of the student to learn. typically, new students are concerned (to say the least) about pull time, flying the canopy, and landing. those concerns all affect your ability to take in information. how much does your coach cost? slot plus coaching fee almost certainly. How does your coach fly? are they right next to you all the time, able to help? how will the video look? will you get everything on there, if the coach doesn't fly as well as you hope or can't keep up with how fast you're moving? how easy is it to understand what he/she is trying to communicate to you? if you're not getting it, you can't you stop the skydive and have it explained to you, can you? how many jumps can you make in a day? how long does your learning take, making that many/few jumps in a day? how far apart are the jumps? 30 mins/an hour? your 45 second window to learn is separated from the next 45 second window by that long. how many days will it take you to accumulate 15 minutes of freefall (at least 20 skydives)? certainly new flyers will feel anxiety when they get in the tunnel. but that evaporates quickly as you start to get comfortable. you pack 10 minutes of learning into 10 minutes. if you're not understanding exactly what the coach is telling you, you step out of the tunnel and talk about it, and then get back in. you're learning to fly a very tight space, something most skydivers cannot do. the video will be flawless, since it's mounted outside and captures nearly everything (unless you cork out of the frame). i feel that 10 minutes in the tunnel will not translate dirctly as 10 minutes of freefall, but more like 30 minutes of freefall. you learn fast, you learn correctly, you learn safely. certainly, don't stop skydiving. :) tunnel flying is not the end of the world. it is absolutely a great and cheap (by comparison) tool to advance your skills and get more out of every skydive. if you can't jump cuz the weather is bad (and growing up in wisconsin i know it can be) take a weekend to the tunnel. start your skydiving year off flying with people who have hundreds or thousands more jumps than you have, and feel confident flying with anyone. coaching at our tunnel is incredibly reasonable, typically about $50 more per HOUR than you can buy the tunnel time for flying solo. (they give us a break on the time when we book it for coaching, so that we make a good coaching rate and you still aren't paying much more than just the rate if you bought it.) give it a try man. you won't be sorry. just make sure you get to the gym for a few weeks before hand to do some shoulder stuff. you probably don't usually make 20-30 jumps a day, and they'll be a little tired. :) safe skydives Matt. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

i'm not sure what you mean. i'm taking this response as anger and sarcasm, and an attempt to belittle a serious commitment to a passion these kids have developed. they are tremendous fliers, something that i think would excite any skydiver or tunnel flier. this sport is full of people who can fly better than you (the general "you"). why waste energy with bitterness? your kids flew, that's awesome. they probably had a great time. keep it positive. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

Papa Joe!! man let me know when you get up and running. big Rick and i will be out to see you asap. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

Derek has 360 skydives, don't sell him short! Say what you mean. Do what you say.

if you're looking at any part of your body, you're looking at the wrong thing. you might be able to see your hands in the extreme periphery, but probably not. think of building a shelf with your upper shoulders and neck. roll your shoulders back a bit at the top, and maybe while thinking of that shelf, think of that pokey bone at the bottom of your sternum being the most forward point of your upper body. chin up! get in a tunnel! Say what you mean. Do what you say.

Brett.......SSHHHHHHHHHH. please man Say what you mean. Do what you say.

i think all the tunnels have something to offer, and time spent in any tunnel will improve your flying. after seeing some of the flyers that have come from orlando, people who learned to fly at slow speeds and make that work, someone like Carlos for example, it's hard to say that any tunnel of any size cannot produce tremendous flyers. the vegas flyaway guys have been here several times, and although their flying style reflects the wind they have to work with, they are all exceptional flyers. certainly a 4 way team will have an easier time in a big tunnel. but doesn't a small tunnel teach you to fly a tighter space? i think a recirc tunnel will be a nice choice for people when it's cold outside, but i would say that might be the only valid differentiation. you will learn different and equally valuable things at any tunnel. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

why Drew? Say what you mean. Do what you say.

don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to be talking about anyone's anonymity? Say what you mean. Do what you say.

it just means head down. a few of the members are to that point. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

who said that? in this thread? Say what you mean. Do what you say.

interestingly squeek Jewels question was also not about whether to tip or not tip, but that she wanted to tip and was asking how much. you single handedly turned that into an attack on the instructors, that somehow we are misleading customers, expecting a tip, and then doing a sub-standard job if we don't get one. you seem to very much want to move this thread from "how much should i tip" to you telling us all how to do our job properly. maybe you could start a new thread? perhaps that would be a better place for you to keep being a father to us all, by stomping your feet about our job performance/work ethic. every single instructor that has commented has said that they do not expect a tip, but that they're nice. i mean that's verbatim what everyone has said. i feel like you've had some really bad experience at a tunnel, and that may be what's behind your obviously passionate feelings about the issue. also interesting to me is that this particular product, (adult league at SVCO), to my knowledge has never been tried before. we did give free coaching from the start, and we also did not explain to those customers that they owed anything extra, because they don't. both the free coaching, and them not owing us anything extra, continues. this thread was begun, i believe, simply because some of the members have come to realize that we are doing more than what is typically expected, and would like some help on figuring out how much of a tip is appropriate to give. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

Yvonne if you want to continue to attack me personally in this public forum i will absolutely be responding with things you will not like. my interpretation of the events of the other evening are quite different from yours. i have deliberately stayed away from any comment towards you, trying not to make the situation worse. i'm not feeling very wise about that decision right now, since i think your accusations are, at best, incredibly unfair. if you're looking for clarity or resolution, you can always PM me, and i will be happy to talk to you. if instead you're looking to air this out on dz.com, i'm sure you'll let me know that, too. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

when i instruct for return fliers, my job is to keep them safe. sometimes, that will include showing them the correct way to do something, because that makes my job easier (fewer spots) and keeps them safer. an excellent example would be when a person is trying to learn to stand up from a back fly position. if they arch while doing that, they'll launch themselves up into the wall. in that situation, it serves us both for me to show them how to do that, and give them a bit of help while they learn. that particular transition is one that stands out in my mind, although there are a couple others where the safest thing for everyone is for me to give you the tools you need to do it safely. although that is "coaching", i think of it more as lowering the wear and tear on me. for the majority of other things you'll learn in the tunnel, if you learn it from someone else, and not from bouncing around until you figured it out on your own, you've been coached. our job as tunnel instructors is only to keep you safe. that may also include telling you to (please) not do something like you're trying to do until you get proper coaching. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

Jewels i think there's a few things that have contributed at SVCO. you're definitely right that we have all been giving free coaching to the adult league. that program was started with the goal of showing non skydivers (or lower experience skydivers) how much fun the tunnel can be, how quickly you can learn, etc. so that those people would be good advertising for us when they talked to friends/coworkers/relatives/whoever. as instructors working with that league, i think we were all very ok with the fact that people might not tip, probably wouldn't, because the experience base just wasn't there to know that typically in skydiving, if you want coaching, you pay for it. i think the tipping that did happen was growing awareness that 1. we're working hard for you guys and 2. sometimes what you get from one instructor can be very different from what you get from another. to my knowledge, none of us were ever expecting a tip from the league but just like when we get tips from regular classes, it was nice. i think for all of you in that league, it will highlight the difference between flying on your own (no coach), and getting coaching. i think you're right about that being different at other tunnels. when i was going to orlando or perris, before working at SVCO, those tunnels had a coaching program in place, and the tunnel instructor, for the most part, just kept us safe. as a tunnel, they had some sharp contrasts from here, though. huge skydiving communities, and lots and lots of coaches. to my knowledge, adult league will continue as it has in the past. no one there, myself included, was ruffled enough to want to change anything. the coaching program is something we've been talking about, in some form or other, since before the tunnel opened, and this is just how long it took to get everyone together on it. you're right that people do need to understand the value of coaching, and that most of the responsibility for educating them falls to us. as far as the membership you bought, i don't think you'll have to worry about one of us just standing in the door when you fly, unless you tell us to get out. all of the adult league-ers have been great customers, and i think coaching will come as often as you want it. for others reading the thread, there have been 4 tunnel instructors who've posted. unanimously, we've said that we don't come to work expecting a tip, only that it's nice when it happens, it doesn't have to be money, and not tipping is ok. Julie wanted a number as a guidepost, which it doesn't seem like anyone (me included) wants to give. i like what Joe had to say. tip what you want when you want, when you feel good about the session and only then. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

try not to put words into somone else's post jp. Bowen didn't say he was expecting a tip. he said it was unfortunate that people expect coaching, which he's ok to give because he loves to teach, and it would be nice if they could recognize that he's going over and above his job description to help them out, which they typically don't. no where in his post did he say that he was expecting a tip. i know it might seem radical to you, but sometimes it is nice if people take care of you, when you take care of them. and if my memory is correct, i think his post also said that even a few dollars is a great acknowledgement of gratitude. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

so after all that Julie...... tips are appreciated, Julie. we don't have a chart either. whatever you feel like tipping, we're going to be ok with. thanks and squeek, when i say "whatever", that can mean "zero", and i'll still be ok with it. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

it must be nice to hide behind anonymity. you certainly have a lot to say about this, considering you don't know the situation, don't know the people involved, and have not worked as a tunnel instructor. QuoteTipping should only EVER be for something OUTSTANDING and above normal practice for the job discription. treating ANY customer less because they dont tip shows how porrly you are suited to the job.*** what the original post was asking about was exactly that. coaching from the tunnel rat is something far above the normal job practice. this was a question posed by one of the SVCO adult league customers, a sincere request to gain some information and perspective. most of the people who come to adult league are not skydivers, and don't have a background with how much coaching can cost. nothing in anyone's replies, except yours, involves swearing, denigrating anyone's job or how they do it, or insulting them personally. nice job, turning the mood nasty. and proving, once again, no matter how simple you try to keep it, someone on dz.com is going to job it up. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

the time this particular thread was talking about is an adult league, where the tunnel gets paid for time, and we do coaching for our regular hourly rate of (insert hourly wage here, but around $14 is correct). When you feel like you've spent considerable amounts of time, energy, and certainly money, to acquire the knowledge base you have, you can feel free to spread that around free of charge. In the mean time, i think that it's ok for people to show their appreciation for the TOTALLY FREE COACHING they are receiving in the way of a tip. Our hourly wage is what we get paid to do our best to keep you from breaking your neck, at times a very challenging job. my freefly coach charged $270 for a 15 minute block. his hourly rate worked out to be $480, since he got a discount for the tunnel time. we don't get paid quite that when we set up coaching, but it's a long way from $14. if coaching seems too expensive for you, don't pay for it. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

tips are appreciated, Julie. we don't have a chart either. whatever you feel like tipping, we're going to be ok with. thanks Say what you mean. Do what you say.

unfortunately, two things happened. Billvon asked us to knock it off, which i'll try to respect. And JP has fallen strangely silent. hmmmm. But with 10000 posts, i'm sure i can find another point of engagement. i guess i'll have to check out the base forum. Say what you mean. Do what you say.

if you are going to buy an Ouragon suit, be very, very careful about who does the measurements. SVCO had tons of trouble with the company as a whole, despite a (previously) good relationship between Nancy and one of our instructors. If the measurements are good, the quality of the suit is good. if the measurements are bad, the company will be of little or no assistance, and their customers service is terrible. One of our instructors ordered a suit before starting to work here, the measurements were taken by a person at Mile Hi in Longmont who was the local rep. He had been trained by Nancy personally. The measurements were not correctly taken, and he (now an instructor at SVCO) ended up selling the suit for less than 1/2 of what he paid because they would no longer help. Nancy actually told him to never contact her again. He had sent it back 3 different times at that point, always paying shipping both ways, paid for alterations that were still not correct, and they then basically told him to shove off. I'll PM anyone interested the entire content of the emails if you don't believe it. We will never be ordering their suits again, not because the quality is low, but because if anything is wrong, you're on your own. Say what you mean. Do what you say.