
pilotdave
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Everything posted by pilotdave
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Ok, I agree with you. But if AAD dependence doesn't have any affect on an instructor, why is it a bad thing? Dave
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What can we do about Skyride?
pilotdave replied to ChasingBlueSky's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
You're tarnishing the state in your profile! Put georgia so people know to ignore you. And chutingstar... Aren't you nervous having your business so closely associated with such a shady business? If I owned a business, I'd protect it by staying way out of something like skyride/asc. Dave -
So he WILL fly IFR in a plane with a BACKUP engine?? He's engine reliant. Just tell me, what is better about an AFF instructor that will do AFF jumps without an AAD? What should that instructor do to improve himself, assuming he REALLY BADLY wants to teach students? Dave
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Being a dumbass is the same with or without an AAD. I agree with you that people shouldn't be dumbasses. That depends on why you wouldn't do it without it. In aircraft, some backup systems are required for IFR flight but not required for VFR. IFR is inherently more dangerous. Wouldn't we just be safer staying on the ground instead of flying IFR? YES! Wouldn't we be safer not doing bigway skydives and AFF instruction? YES! Dave
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AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
I think you totally missed my point. You're an AFF instructor right? You're telling other AFF instructors that they should quit because they're AAD dependent. No you've never used the word "quit" but you've said they'd be safer not doing those jumps they require an AAD for... ie AFF. So we have 2 instructors and a given, 100% average student. Both of you are equally comfortable with the student. You'll do the jump without an AAD and the other instructor will not. Therefore he should not do AFF, right? That means you feel you are better suited to doing AFF jumps because you are willing to do them without an AAD. HE'S the one that's going to sit the jump out if his AAD doesn't work. You're the one that's going to do it either way. You are the one willing to take a greater risk. That's precisely why you believe you are better suited to doing AFF in the first place, and the guy that requires an AAD should sit out AFF jumps. Have I said anything you don't agree with? Dave -
Ask yourself "Am I a dumbass about to make a skydive that I am clearly not ready for and might get someone else hurt?" Don't think the AAD needs to enter the picture. If you answer yes to that question, the AAD isn't going to help. You'll still be a dumbass about to go on a skydive you aren't ready for and still might hurt someone else. If you answer no, then what's the problem? Use an AAD if you want or don't. Up to you. This whole "risk threshold" thing just isn't working for me. Dave
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AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
As I said, sitting out any skydive is safer than participating in any skydive. Choosing to use a cypres does NOT indicate that someone doesn't accept the risk of participating in that skydive. You can even ignore that the AAD does decrease risk (of dying). An AFF instructor may ACCEPT that the risk of a collision with a student is high and THEREFORE choose to use a cypres EVERY TIME. We've heard from multiple AFF instructors that choose to use cypreses for AFF. At my DZ, AADs are mandatory for AFF instructors and coaches. Theres a reason for both of those facts. Why are you better suited to doing AFF than one of those instructors? Because you're willing to risk MORE? Your risk tolerance is higher and that means... ummm... hmmm. What does it mean? Here's what we know. You aren't necessarily safer, you aren't necessarily a better instructor, you aren't necessarily more experienced, you aren't necessarily a nicer guy, you aren't necessarily better looking, you aren't necessarily ANY BETER SUITED TO INSTRUCT. You're simply a guy willing to take higher risks. And that's a GOOD thing for an AFF instructor??? Some jumps ARE more dangerous than others and those that will do them without a cypres FULLY accept the risk of that jump (well, they still might wear helmets and probably have reserves that are properly packed, etc). Deciding to use a cypres is not an indication that risk isn't accepted! That's a personal decision, and if they DO the jump, they accept the risk. If they die, they die. You're just more willing to die than they are! Are you helmet dependent? Should AFF instructors be willing to make any AFF jump without a helmet (or not make that jump at all)? You can always tell how dangerous a stranger will be in the air? Would you jump with a complete stranger? Would you jump with a complete stranger and not wear an AAD? Unless you CAN tell how dangerous he'll be, why would you assume he'll be safe in the air? Dave -
I agree with you... "using an AAD ON riskier jumps" is not the same as "using an AAD TO DO riskier jumps." One is an intelligent choice, the other is not. Dave
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AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
I've said it before... take 2 identical jumpers. Same skill, same experience. Both are freefly coaches. They both use AADs on every jump. One of them will jump without it (if it wasn't available for a jump), the other would not. On a given jump where both are AAD equipped, they're taking the same risk. The one that will jump without an AAD is not safer. Not on that jump, and not on a jump without an AAD. Their philosophy toward cypres use does not affect their safety directly. The one who WOULD do freefly coaching without a cypres might want to think about those that have been killed where a cypres may have otherwise saved their lives. I simply don't buy it that I'm SAFER on any given jump solely based on the fact that I'd do the same jump without a cypres. That situation could come up on ANY jump, not just one that is especially dangerous. It might be a good sign that I'm taking higher risks on that jump than others, but I already know that! That's why I wouldn't do that jump without a cypres in the first place. I accept the higher risk (of a collision or loss of altitude awareness) on that jump and use a cypres in case the same thing happens to me that has happend to others on that type of jump. Would I be safer sitting it out? HELL YES! Just like EVERY OTHER SKYDIVE! When you're talking about reckless skydiving or jumpers going beyond their skill level, I agree with you completely. That shouldn't happen, AAD or not. But how many people are really dying (or having cypres fires) from doing this (other than jumping canopies beyond their skill level)? Dave -
AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
billvon didn't answer my question yet, but I'll open it up to Ron too: Do you think an AFF instructor that won't ordinarily do AFF without an AAD should try it once to prove he can do it and be sure he isn't device dependent? Dave -
What happens when you try to get to skydivingmovies.com? Dave
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Really? I have the factory hook knife on mine and I find it extremely secure. Mine's never come unsnapped. You sure they had em snapped in, or just sitting loose in the pocket? Dave
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AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
Ok, bad example because the skydiving equivalent of running a red is something more like tracking through another RW group. I'm thinking of a jump with a higher risk level than say a solo. A type of jump where the risk of a collision is higher or where others with equal or more experience than you have been known to lose altitude awareness. Of course a jump doesn't CAUSE a loss of altitude awareness... but it's known to happen to experienced jumpers on certain types of jumps more than others. Do you think an AFF instructor that won't ordinarily do AFF without an AAD should try it once to prove he can do it and be sure he isn't device dependent? Dave -
AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
Start with a given jumper on a given jump. Any example you want. In most cases, that jumper is safer using an AAD than not using one. Do you disagree? On some jumps, the jumper is more likely to lose altitude awareness or be involved in a freefall collision due to the nature of the jump, not the jumper's skill. Do you disagree? Why is it wrong to accept the higher risk of certain jumps and add a backup just in case? What is wrong with only accepting that risk (of lost altitude awareness or a collision) when a backup is available? Hook's analogy: would you run a red light just because you have airbags in your car? My analogy: if I was going to run a red light, I sure as hell would want airbags in my car! Having airbags doesn't have to be the reason I run a red light. If it is, well then I'm a moron. That'd be like landing in water because I have flotation equipment or cutting away a good main because I have a reserve. Dave -
AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
I think it's ok to choose to only go on certain dives if you have an AAD. Not exactly the same thing, at least in my opinion. The situation I'm talking about is where skill is not in question. An AFF instructor with 2000 AFF jumps who chooses to do AFF jumps only if he has a cypres. The risk of going on an AFF jump with no cypres is unnaceptable to him. The risk with a cypres is acceptable. Should he not be doing AFF because he decided an AAD is "necessary?" Dave -
AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
I'm not saying that. I don't know what a risk/benefit limit is! I don't know how to determine the risk or benefit of any skydive. I don't think anyone should take extra risks just because they have an AAD. In fact, you're freaking agreeing with me now! I had previously thought your attitude was that if a jumper won't do a particular type of jump without an AAD but will do it with an AAD, that automatically meant that person should not be doing that type of jump. THAT is what I've been disputing, but you have corrected me. Dave -
AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
Your "concept" is that some people should not participate on some skydives. That is absolutely 100% a means to lower the number of deaths or cypres fires. My point is that if you have two skydivers of exactly equal experience and skill, but one is willing to coach new freeflyers without a cypres and the other will only coach new freeflyers with a cypres, they are taking equal risks and have an equal likelyhood of having a cypes fire, if both are cypres equipped. The one willing to coach without a cypres is simply willing to take a higher risk (higher risk/benefit ratio if you want to call it that). I don't believe that makes him/her better suited to coaching new freeflyers. That skydiver is simply willing to accept a higher probability of dying on one of those jumps. Dave -
Was your AAD free? If not, why'd you waste your money on it? We're coming from very different perspectives since I don't have 4000 jumps, but I have doubt on every jump. History of very experienced skydivers being killed adds to that doubt. Confidence is great and I can't say I EXPECT to get hurt on any jump, but I don't have zero doubt. I don't think the AAD is NEEDED to increase my chances for survival. I'm willing to accept that when I jump without one, my chances for survival are decreased and I'm ok with that. But I do think my AAD DOES increase my chances for survival. Do you do any jumps (regardless of AAD) that you don't have zero doubt about? Have you ever? Dave
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AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
Don't think so. I'm not a person that would never jump without an AAD. When my cypres goes in for its 4-year in a few months, I don't plan to stop jumping and I really doubt I'll think about what jumps I'll go on based on my lack of cypres. But that's just me. I'm also hopefully going to get my coach rating very soon (just need to pass the evals). Assuming I get the rating, I still won't be doing any coach jumps while my AAD is out. Why? Not allowed at my DZ. My DZ made the decision to use AADs on intructional/coach jumps very easy by taking it out of the instructors'/coaches' hands. But would I be wrong choosing on my own to sit out coach jumps while my AAD was out? I don't think so... Someone that PLANS to cut away and wait for the cypres to fire during a mal. Someone that truly plans to use their AAD. Someone that PLANS to keep tugging on their main deployment handle until the cypres fires the reserve. I wonder who is having all these dozens of cypres fires people ellude to. Were they all "AAD dependent" beforehand? How about the low/no pulls that would have been cypres fires? Aside from students, were they doing especially dangerous jumps that they would have considered beyond their risk limits? Dave -
Well, explain that a bit more. If an AFF instructor chooses not to do AFF without an AAD, then AFF jumps are something he wouldn't do without an AAD and therefore he's a dumbass? If an experienced freefly coach chooses not to coach without an AAD, is that person a dumbass for coaching? My real question: Is the AAD a crutch/excuse every time a skydiver WILL do a certain type of jump with an AAD but won'd do it without an AAD? Dave
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AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
Well that's sort of what I'm getting at. I don't think most skydivers have any clue what their "personal risk limit" is. I know I don't. Sure, I could come up with a million things I wouldn't try. But I can't come up with a million things that I WOULD try. Hook says someone uncomfortable doing a 5-way shouldn't do a 5-way. That's not how skydiving works for most of us. A lot of skydivers ARE cocky and think they can handle anything... but I think the average skydiver assumes the opposite until proven wrong. If I was invited on a 50 way or something, I'd be scared to death I'd screw up. I wouldn't go do a 50 way unless someone I trust told me I'm ready. Is a 50-way beyond my personal skill level? Dunno. Never done one. Is a 50-way beyond my personal risk limit? No, not if someone told me I'm ready. Otherwise, yes. Would I be glad I've got a cypres? You bet! I think most of us do jumps we're uncomfortable with alllll the time, especially as new jumpers. Otherwise we'd be doing a whole lot of solo jumps. If discomfort on a skydive is a sign that the jump is beyond my personal risk limit, I might as well sell my gear now. I do this for fun and I enjoy trying new things. And I'd say most of the time, I've got very little idea how dangerous any particular jump will be. Depends on way too many factors. I'm willing to risk it. And I have a cypres in case I don't deploy. Risk/benefit ratio is just one more number you can't quantify. Dave -
AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
Ok, now I feel like some progress has been made in this thread. But there's still this issue... An AFF instructor rides the plane down with his student because his AAD wasn't turned on. Simple situation. Nobody's talking about "personal risk limits" on that plane. He would not make the jump without an AAD because of the inherent risks associated with doing an AFF jump. Clearly by your (and Ron's and billvon's) definition, he's AAD dependent. Is an AFF jump beyond that instructor's personal risk limit (without asking him)? Or is that something you can only determine by asking (ie something we only know ourselves)? Or do we even know it ourselves? I think they've been done with this thread for a long time, but I'd love to hear Ron's and billvon's take on this too. How about the freefly coach that won't coach newbies without being AAD equipped? In another thread, you said that BECAUSE this person won't do these jumps without an AAD it meant that these jumps were beyond their limit and therefore shouldn't be done even with an AAD. I guess now my question is how did you know that? Has your opinion changed since then, or did I read something wrong? I know you haven't changed your mind, you're just trying to explain the same thing in different words. But to me, your last post contradicts previous posts and seems to be a very different opinion from Ron's and billvon's. Now we can't have the three wise men () disagreeing so I'm just trying to get this straight. Just to sum it up into one final question: If your buddy sitting next to you on the plane during a 400 way attempt realized he forgot to turn on his cypres and decided to ride the plane down, is that DEFINITELY an indicator that he should not be doing a 400 way (ignoring the fact that he's about to be kicked off by the organizer anyway -
Computer geek help. Setting up SMTP server
pilotdave replied to kansasskydiver's topic in The Bonfire
You'll need another server (software). That's as much as I know... I looked into it a long time ago but never figured out any of the free windows servers I could find. Dave -
AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
AHHH! This is what it boils down to! The choice to use an AAD DOESN'T INDICATE a person's personal risk threshold! An AAD can be a backup, even if a jumper chooses to use it on all jumps he/she considers more risky than others. Do you disagree? I assume you do disagree since that's very different from what you've said over and over. Dave -
AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds
pilotdave replied to Hooknswoop's topic in Safety and Training
I only jump with one reserve. Are the FARs wrong for only requiring that I carry a single backup for my main? The whole thing about the umbilical is just that you only have a single backup. Precautions should obviously be taken to avoid NEEDING a backup device. We agree on that. I said forget the 5 way. Talk to me about an AFF instructor that won't do AFF without an AAD. You have said over and over again, indirectly, that he should not be doing AFF jumps because the risk of AFF is too high for him. I disagree. The risk of AFF is acceptable to him. He chooses to have a backup device because history has shown it might save his life. A broken arm would suck. But we've got a deployment handle for each hand. The concern about a broken arm on a skydive is being able to pull. Secondarily I'd worry about flaring and then about other things like how would it affect the rest of my life while it heals. Injuries suck. But compared to death, who cares? At work, we classify a dual engine failure of a helicopter as catastrophic. Worst case, you crash and die. Most dual engine failures might result in nothing more than an off-airport landing. But we are interested in those situations where a safe landing isn't possible. The cypres lowers the severity of a freefall collision or loss of altitude awareness. It in itself has no effect on the probability of either one. I AGREE that by going on dangerous jumps, you're increasing the probability of either of those. You've still decreased the severity by using a cypres... at least if it works. Again, you are not addressing the same topic as I am. Forget lack of skill. We agree there. I have a problem with the idea that it's not ok to choose to use a cypres specially for jumps that a person, with the skill to do that type of jump, considers to have a higher probability of a collision or loss of altitude awareness. AADs are good. You've said so over and over again. Why is that jump "too risky" just because the jumper chooses to only do that type of jump with a working AAD? Dave