Slyder

Ok Let me ask you this. You think all big guys are as smart as you? Thats like me saying all people 6'2" and 187lbs are good looking. Yes I think "large" people are smart, I also think there are some "large" people that have a slower than normal learning curve. Same goes for skinny's and muscular people, same goes for white, black, and purple people. That question alone "Do you really think that it is new to us big guys that the planes we fly in have weight limits?" By you saying that, you are talking on behalf of all "large people". You are basically saying that all large people understand the concepts of weight and balance. The same training it took you and I our hard earned time and money to attain.. but these other "big guys" got it for free?... Where was I? WOULD I BE WRITING THIS POST IF I THOUGHT ALL BIG GUYS KNEW THE IMPACT THEY HAD ON A SMALL PISTON? So to answer your question curious guy, yes i think there are "stupid" fat people. Look.. this is a message to everyone with some smart ass remark.... keep it to yourself... sit back and learn something. You're starting to annoy me. Slyder PS if you are a 300lb jump pilot...I hope to god that you're not flying 182's or you must be flying alot of 3 person loads or 4 small children... good on yah....bet your not legal very often when you fly.

Thanks Rob, Good to hear some other guys are having the same experiences. With 400+ views on this string and 40 replies, I'm hoping the people who aren't putting in their 2 cents have been in the situation, or have learned something from this. Slyder

Yes hypoxia can start as low as 5,000 feet. Good for you. I'm sorry that I did not foot note my information. Being a Canadian pilot, and I believe the FAR's are roughly the same give or take. Hypoxia (for the majority of people) is negligable or non existant below that alititude (10,000feet), and becomes more of an issue between 10, and 13,000 feet. In the CAR's (the canadian FAR's) you can only stay between 10 and 13 thousand for 30 minutes. The FAR's as you point out are very similar. "For me to make a "blanket" statment like that is INDICATIVE of a lack of training." Wow. So I guess by referring to the CAR's and FAR's, they too are lacking in training, because they have set some pretty firm standards on this "blanket" statment. I do have time in a HAC, that still doesn't make me an expert. When you fly an airliner your cabin altitude is actually 8 to 9 thousand feet MSL. BRING ON THE HYPOXIA! I'm trying to stay as ojective as I can, but this is sick. Your the exact type of person I'm trying to help out, because if you think that all drop zones fly at or below gross take off weight, you're very wrong. This is where this string comes from. Yes this is my only post, does that make it any less credable? Do I need to footnote my material? Do I need to put 100000000 jumps and 14 years behind my name to tell you that 4 big guys will make a plane climb slower or not at all. In my opinion, no. You can find out the hard way. And this noise in the background has obviously hit a nerve with some people. I threw up one more string on this post explaining again, in more blunt terms why, and what I'm getting at. Take it, learn and help out your fellow jumpers, pilot, and DZO, or don't.... it's up to you. Slyder

Thanks for the tips. I'll look into that method for this DZ. Slyder

Ok Guys 1st. My apologizies for the "big mac" comment and any other comments that you or your friends may have taken to heart. If you read the facts of what I'm trying to say, you might understand a bit better what im getting at. As I said I've only accumulated about 1000 hours flying jump 182's in 3 DZ's around the North America. Chances are, I haven't flown at your DZ, so I'm not familiar with how they do things. I've also noticed this thread is going around in circles to a certain extent, and would like to kill it, but would like to make my point as to not cause anymore ill feelings. My goal of this was to extend a little knowledge to some of the new and old skydivers who in my experience don't appreciate or may be naive as to the efforts of the jump plane. Bottom line of what I'm saying is fact, and non arguable: (but generalized) The plane will climb faster if its lighter. I will gaurantee that not all DZ's have a computerized weight and balance with someone punching in numbers for every load. These planes do and always will go overweight. Personally - yes, I do bump people if i have to, even if they are geared up on a hot turn and I see trouble, but the green pilot who is lucky to have a job and doesn't want to piss people off... he'll be more likely to look the other way, and enter in the (ave male wt) + gear weight. That pilot and the pax are now in jeopordy, don't try to argue the point because I've seen it happen one too many times. I've heard the line "if you won't take this load, I know someone who will" from a few operators. Or "the last pilot could do it". These are things I don't think most jumpers understand. The 182's can take more than the gross weight, quite easily, but the structure if subject to any kind of abnormal manuevre caused either by the pilot "doing a neg. G" or by unexpected turbulence may cause the aircraft to exceed its stress level. Sure the wings might not snap off that time, but 10, 20, 50 overloads later, little jimmy and his 4 skydivers will run into troubles. Not alot of DZO's are pilots, so when they do get a guy who fly's a machine "successfully" overweight, he is apt to be a tad upset when a guy who does things by the book, says no to a guy geared up on a hot turn. Bottom line guys - there are alot of new pilots out there that will "work for food" and who just need a job so bad that they'll do anything for it (I'm speaking from Canada's perspective right now). They will "assume" that if they see a large load come out that it's okay, or that they have to do it to save their job. I want the heavier guys to be a bit more "aware" in this case, it is your life, and these planes do go up overweight, and yes the overweight planes do get to altitude, and maybe they get there in good time, but it is still unsafe. So next time you see yourself walking out to that poor bagged out 182 with 3 of your larger buddies, I hope you think a bit before climbing in there as to what is going through the pilots mind. Slyder

Alrighty then. Got someone fired up about this one! Ok bud, here's the scoop: I dare your DZO to weigh every load you guys do infront of an FAA inspector. I GARAUNTEE you'll see some 3 person loads. Wake up sonny boy ---- the only way these planes go up with 4 big boys on board is because the pilot writes them down as "average" for weight computations. And hey.. don't take it so personally... like I said --- if you had 3 other dudes your size in that plane, not only would you be there for awhile, but you'd be sweating all over eachother and wow... just think.. what if one of them had to put on a bird suit! Oh and hey... if you'd read my posts correctly, I personally do not care if the load takes me 45 mins.. I'm building time!!... Its the DZO that loses money man...And if the DZO loses money.. you won't have a DZ and I won't have a job. And the "texan" remark... I've never been there, but assuming you're referring to "larger" than normal people...and a 35 min load to altitude + the 8 mins it takes to desend is 3/4 of a hour at an operating cost of roughly $120 an hour... do the math. I dunno what your DZ is charging... but he ain't making alot of money. One good thing that came out of your comment, was your appreciation for safety... I don't know alot of skydivers who understand that concept too well... but the few i do, usually understand what im getting at... It's simply a balance between operational efficiency, and keeping everyone happy (large and small). Take this as factual information, not as a personal crack against your superior physique.

you smoke?... you should get that checked out dude

You can stay between 10 and 13 thousand feet for roughly 30 minutes before hypoxia sets in.

Hey body builder guy. I'm offering a suggestion - If you don't take it, fine.. you can sit cramped in a 185 for 45 mins... Sure the 185 got you to altitude and maybe he did it quick, cuz the 4 other jumpers were average weight, and the plane glided back cuz the pilot only had 5 gallons of fuel on take off... I'm not saying large guys and girls can't jump, I'm saying for the sake of the DZO, the pilot, yourself, and the guys and gals your jumping with --- be considerate. The other 4 guys sitting cramped in that plane don't want to be there anymore than you do... so if it takes forever to get there, its because the plane is too heavy... you fill in the blanks. Don't be a smart A$$. I feel for the DZO of your Drop zone.. you have a bad attitude.. and if you plan to last along time at a small DZ which are normally "family" oriented, you'll have to change your tune about being "a paying customer" and not giving a **** about the operation. God Bless your soul.

I'm not a super experienced JP - I do have roughly 1000 hours on piston jump planes and have flown for 3 different DZ's througout north america.. Currently I'm in a very very hot and damp environment, which doesn't help the situation.... Look guys.. this wasnt meant to be a bitching session... its me giving some tips as what load to put yourself on because of the characteristics of a flying vehicle.... I know what the aircraft can and can't do, and I will fly a machine based on average weights of males and females with rigs... Personally.. .I'll fly the machine for 45 mins for 1 load...I feel for the DZO cuz he/she just lost money....but what are you gonna do? I'm writing this more for you guys, and for the sake of keeping the DZO who is probably starting out, in business. Who knows.. maybe one day he/she will have saved enough money by manifesting properly to buy an otter (help him/her out!!) ultimately --- the lighter the plane, the faster you're going to get to your altitude..... if the DZO has a good strangle hold on the times of the loads.. the pilot will dump you dudes after roughly 24-27 mins of climbing which could be lower than expected altitudes because he's doing 200FPM up top where the air is thin and the load is heavy. It's physics. Take care ---- and think altitude before you eat that big mac Slyder

yeah.. the communication problem may exist.... but as i said.. the manifest people do have a hard job.. and when you have 1, 182 to work with.. it becomes hard to balance the tandems and the up jumpers.. just a tuff one for the DZO to keep em all happy.. ...so i understand and i do put up with it... thus the post aimed to the large guys to maybe offer or to put themselves on the "load before fueling"

Hey Everyone - A little venting from a piston jump pilot. Don't take this the wrong way, but this post is meant to educate the Larger skydivers and manifest (who by the way have the hardest job on the DZ) who frequent piston operated DZ's. ** This is for your benifit and mine** I'm going to avoid some unnessecary physics jargon, and keep a long story short. ***AFTER YOU SEE THE PILOT HAS JUST FUELED, DO NOT GET ALL YOUR LARGEST FRIENDS TOGETHER, PLAN A 4 WAY AND EXPECT TO GET YOUR ALTITUDE*** The pilot is going to be pissed at manifest, climb for 45 minutes trying to get you and your buddies up to 10,500. He's going to burn way more gas trying to get there, and the DZO is going to lose money. Not to mention the pilot probably fueled up for 3 loads with MINIMAL reserves.. and now he's thinking he might only get 2 loads. Which ultimately slows down the operation. I personally try to get 15-20 loads a day, and if I see my plane that normally climbs at 600+ FPM doing under 400 FPM.. I get pissed. For those who are going to spill some Weight and Balance response my way...--- how often do I see some 230lb guy try to tell me he's 185. I look at skydivers (myself being one) and catagorize into 3 groups. Judging my W&B from that, or I use the "average male weight" and "average female weight" for my computations. Another tip ---- if you are large, and complain about not getting your altitude ------ it's your fault so pipe down!!! Thanks for listening.. and when I say large I mean it not only to the fat, but to the overly muscular. ***If you are large, ask to be on the load before fueling and you'll get to your alitutde, and you'll get there faster than you've ever imagined!!!*** If you find spelling or grammer errors, they were done on purpose. Thanks for listening!! Slyder