LuvToFly

Early in the game, read Marcus Antebi's (The Skydiver's Survival Guide) account of ripping up his feet because he was not fully aware of what could happen to him - or did not fully believe it until it did happen. The picture in the book of his ripped up feet was all the convincing needed. I personally won't even go in sandals after seeing how the whole toe nail ripped thing happens (ouch!) Heal fast and get better soon JustAFlyGirl! But please, please cover those feet!!! "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Some of the ugliest things I have seen take place in the course of a divorce. It's hard to believe that people who made any kind of committment to each other can work so hard to ruin another person. Continue to fight with everything you have for your child. The system may hold you back and be stacked against you, but the truth of your efforts will at some point be quite known by your child. And that's most important; that they know you love and want them in your life. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Think that's a great piece of advice. In the final analysis, it's the jumper's decision; and since there was no back seat, no one else can make that judgement on the ground afterwards. Better to be living and pay for a repack - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

My two sons. All grown up, but just as precious to me as they ever were - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

There does not seem to be many reasons to pull low. Looking up and seeing someone ready to fall into your soon to open chute might be one. That did happen to me one time. I happen to barrel-roll before pull on this particular dive and saw someone that must have followed me out of the plane with virtually no separation (confirmed that later) and then for some reason followed me in free-fall. I saw them about 500' directly above me still in free-fall. It was about 3,500, and decided to track away a bit and opened around 2,200. That was around the lowest I ever opened. It's just a reminder to allow yourself time and altitude. If this had happened at 2,500 it would have been a very tense affair. I never plan to deploy lower than 3,500 on any dive in any case, but this was an example to me of why you need that extra altitude. There does not seem to be any good reason to plan low deployment altitudes. In a sport with some unpredictables, this is at least one factor we can control, giving you that extra time that might be needed to deal with the unforeseen. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Bill, I missed this response and just caught it and had a comment. If indeed looking out for one another is old-style, we should get back to that particular element of old-style. While my parents shared with me how neighbors used to be more friendly with each other and help each other out many years ago, today you're lucky if you know your neighbors well at all. But your neighbors are generally not involved in packing your life-saving equipment. I think the skydiving community should be very different since it is such a small group and there is a lot of interdependence. This is most paramount because many newbies use packers - and a packer's ability to see something not right is far advanced of any newbie generally speaking because they work with so many rigs. Unlike Zenister suggested, it's not that I think people should be making packers responsible for everything - it's just that the knowledge is there to share, and they can educate someone who is not properly stowing their brakes. But, you are right, the recipient has to be willing to accept that education. But the instances of defiant or even arrogant responses from young jumpers should not dissuade the more experienced folks, including packers, from fostering advice and education. If the advice stops, those individuals that would be receptive will never hear it. The consequences are too dire for discouragement to reign in this area. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

OK, just making sure. It's important. Agreed! "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

There is limit, though. Scenario one (what actually happened) - If this was just a choice to land with a good plane and only concern about conditions or comfort, then good for you. Scenario two (hypothetical to make a point) - But if it had been a refusal to jump during an emergency, then 2500 is 'very' high. If you would have balked during a real emergency, then I encourage you to take some training in order to get comfortable with emergency exits. Hop n pops should be a criteria to graduate. Don't do what you aren't prepared for. But, recognize that this is missing and make a positive decision to get that needed training. A good crowd of "people in authority at the DZ" will encourage you to get preparation

As a rigger you are held to the same standard when you pack a main as when you pack a reserve. And packing includes setting the brakes, un-stowing the slider and any other tasks required to pack the parachute as recommended by the manufacture. § 65.129 Performance standards. No certificated parachute rigger may— (e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute; If non-riggers are doing the packing they are to be under "direct supervision" of a rigger. And that rigger is saying that the rig is packed according to procedures as in (e) above. § 105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems. (a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger. Sparky What Sparky said - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

informing you that you may have a problem, sure... dropping everything else and fixing it for you?? hardy.. it isnt their 'responsibility' at all, it's YOURS... one of the downsides of the increasing popularity of skydiving seems to be the more prevalent personality type and attitude that believes someone else should be doing everything they can to 'save you from yourself' ... take some personal responsibility. Chose, inspect and maintain your own gear.. its your life that hangs on it.... if you decide to pay someone to pack your chute for you, dont expect them to 'wipe your ass' when you neglect the important details... its not the packers ass in the air... take care of your packers and they will take care of you, but don’t expect it as ‘part of the service’ as many jumpers seem to when they toss a tangled mess on the mat and walk off… Preaching to the choir. As I said, I pack my own - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

A couple of months ago I was in Deland in a Porter stuffed with 9 guys. The pilot went up and circled a bit but could not find a hole at altitude. He eventually descended to 2,500 feet and paused there so that whoever wanted to get out could jump. Everyone in the plane jumped except me and two other guys. The two other guys were Russian and I don't think they knew what has happening. I did not jump because this is below my normal opening altitude. I could have, but decided to be conservative. I thought I might get some flack but didn't give a crap really. In actuality the folks at the DZ were very supportive about this. What I did see however was some low timers in the plane that jumped because they clearly felt pressured to do so - not wanting to be labeled as a "wimp" etc. You could tell they really didn't want to jump but did anyway (by the way, there were still some clouds around at 2,500 on this day as well) If anything can be learned, it's not to give a crap what other people think or say when it comes to your own personal safety and comfort level. Never feel forced to do anything you are not comfortable with. Come down with the plane if you must. Better to jump another day than to go into a territory that you feel is unsafe - There is absolutely no place for peer or even DZO pressure in this sport. You have charge over your safety. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

I don't use a packer - but used to. The very best always told you if they thought something did not look right or was undone. If they can't take that minimal level of responsibility in their role, they should get out of the packing business - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

In the best PF's I've seen or done your hands are actually tucked in a bit which allows you to freely make the roll that dissipates the vertical energy into horizontal travel - As for gloves in general, I have worn gloves on just about every jump. I can tell you however that in February in Eloy it was too cold at 13K freefall even with the gloves (Neumann tactified) on. My fingers would hurt as the air seemed to cut right through the gloves. What I did was to buy the winterized pair of the Neumann gloves which have some very slim insulation. I was concerned that I would be able to do all things required with these gloves (toggles, risers, handles, etc) but turned out it was no problem at all. Even down to opening the windshield on my Z1 with one gloved-hand. If you are in the least bit concerned about scraping up your hands, I'd recommend gloves as a safety measure. I wear them summer - winter. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

That's a bunch of crap. Everyone in this sport should be looking out for one another. If a packer see that the lines are twisted or someone did not properly stow the brakes, they should either charge 'em to do it, or call the owner over to do it. It is never okay to just pack it without the brakes stowed because it's "not my job." "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

I'm definitely inclined to accept your explanation Bill - since you developed the system. But I think it's important to note that manufacturers clearly recommend that this maintenance is done. For instance, from the Infinity manual, pages 45-47 states forthrightly that, "Take each riser and vigorously twist and flex the webbing near where it passes through each ring. The idea is to remove any set or deformation of the webbing. Do the same thing to the white loop." As an introduction to the maintenance, Velocity states in the same manual on page 45: "Although the system (Booth 3-ring) is as durable as the rest of the harness/container assemble, it requires periodic maintenance to ensure proper operation." There is no distinction between riser width in these instructions - I was also taught this method during AFF training. (edited for spelling) "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Not the first - the WalMart in Ephrata, Pennsylvania has had buggy parking for the Amish for a few years now - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

I find myself doing maintenance at least every 30 days, and there is always some slight dirt that comes off in cleaning the cutaway cables. Definitely not enough to every snag it (because I keep after it) but I don't even want to go there. I have known some people that are just plain afraid to disassemble to perform any maintenance, and I think that is a concern. I believe that we should know as much as possible about how everything hooks together and is held together in these things we wear on our backs so that we can quickly recognize when things don't look as they should - I also perform a quick check of my legstraps stiching before donning my container - and this is a new container. Just a habit, but I think a good one. As far as the person who said that they heard it was not a good thing to do the 3-rings because of hand oil, I think someone had commented on this related to cast fittings, but I don't believe it would apply to stainless steel in any regard. Even still, I'd rather err on the side of working the ring's fabric to keep set out. You can always wipe off your rings with a clean dry cloth afterwards if you are really concerned. The other related benefit is that I like the opportunity to pull the cutaway handle. I put the container on and pull just like it is an emergency - as well as try to pull the reserve whenever it is repack time. It's good to actually grab onto to these things and deploy so that it's not completely foreign to you when and if the time comes you'll need to. It's one thing to pull the practice harness, it's another thing to go through the emer' procedures in your own rig. And, even though your handles will probably not be positioned in the same spot if a real deployment is required due to the forces on the harness, I still think it's good to use the 3-ring maintenance opportunity for practicing the cut-away as a spin-off benefit as well. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

What a bunch of crap. It should not matter how someone hurts themselves or what kind of bind they get into as it relates to extra charges. If that was the case, let's start charging for every fire or police department call that get's a cat out of a tree, or looks for lost child in a department store. It's a penalty charge against skydivers because it is not a charge applied equitably against other sports and incidents? The fact that it is not applied this way wreaks of skydiving predudice big-time. These folks are being paid for doing a job during their shift. What difference should it make whether they are fishing a skydiver out of a tree, or a kid that climbed up and can't get themselves down. If I were in that county, I'd insist that charges be applied equitably to all kind of incidents, or get rid of this one. And if neither, get rid of the commissioner in question - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

I've gotten really diligent about trying to keep after this, including removal of cutaway lines, wipe clean, etc and reassembly just to give confidence that the system is working well when I need it - I have a feeling that a lot of people (both low and high jump numbers) don't do proper 3-ring maintenance half as much as they should - and it seems very important that we do - What's your practice? "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

That's a really good point. I was shown the pull-through method early on and it resulted in uneven stows big-time. Once I started to prefold and wrap around the entire loop things got much better - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

If that - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

I'm that guy and I want to tell you that you translated it wrong. Basically the point I was making is NOT do as I say, not as I did, just that looking back I wish I would have listened. I had a couple of really really close calls that I made through only on sheer luck and this isn't a sport to rely on luck. There is something to be said from earned experience and trying to pass along that experience without the new person having to earn it as well, since the earning process may not be so favorable. The earning the experience process is read about every single week in the incidents forum. I view it the same way as someone who first learned "bannana turns" while learning RW, then later learned how to do centerpoint turns with their arms and leg layovers. If someone comes to them with a question should they teach them bannana turns or the method that's better that took them a long time to learn but is easy to teach? It's a difficult call - On one hand, you want to be able to warn folks about what you have the knowledge now to either avoid or overcome - The problem remains though that for some the message may be, "hey, if Dave can get away with it - with little to no experience early in his career, then why can't I?" In other words, many people think with perhaps better training or equipment available today (or just testosterone) they can avoid what you got lucky with as well - When newer jumpers see the incredible feats that very experienced jumpers can do, and hear the loud buzzing of fabric as somone hooks down before leveling out, they want to have that experience as well. Combine that with the fact that youth is not patient, and you have a recipe for disaster. I think the point well taken by your posts on this subject is the fact that a person may think they can get away with it, or downsize radically or before their experience level, but it is that very belief, for whatever the reasons above, that can kill or mame. In actuality, if anyone who ever attempted something in the sport prior to being ready to handle it was not lucky and got hurt or killed some that think they can get away with it may not try. But people do get lucky - although at the time, many people believe it was their "skill" that got them by - Only when you have really come into a greater knowledge and understanding of the sport do you realize what luck and skill really mean, and the differences between them along with the inherent dangers of confusing the two. As someone who is pretty conservative, I can also get frustrated with the concept of folks setting what seems like a bad example as experienced people go in from low turns. But I still think there is little choice but to try to warn folks the best you can, and I appreciate your efforts to continue to do so - Thanks - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

After such a long time off and/or low jumps, make rehearsal and visualization of your emergency procedures your priority. Go through the required steps not only in your mind, but practice moving your hand(s) towards the cutaway, - and in your mind make sure your cutaway cables have completely cleared so that both risers sucessfully release. Practice then going for your reserve. See this happening as you go through the motions so your mind and body know how to do it automatically. Make safety job no. 1 - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Most of these suggested actions are best-served by pulling at a higher altitude. The 2,000 - 2,500' minimum guidelines are way too low in my view. In a mal, time is your friend. Open higher - because you should ALWAYS be anticipating a mal. Act like it IS going to happen as it probably will at one time or the other- and be skilled and drilled at dealing with each scenario. Then, open high enough to do something about it. There are most-times no excuses for opening too low when we're getting out at 14K. Even your basic 5K hop and pop affords plenty of time to open at a safer decision point. Let's be honest. People in general spend far more time learning to dirt dive than they do practicing emergency procedures. Even further, a lot of folks become experts at visualization in turning those points, and never stop to take the same amount of mental energy and exercise in visualizing a dozen or so possible scenarios and the best ways to respond to each, rehearsed, move by move so that it is instinctive. Openly rehearsing for emergencies has a very low cool-factor - you pretty much only ever see a student doing so. So how good can one really be? If you have time, and are rehearsed, there is a lot you can try. If you don't have time, the best decision may not be available to you - Motto: Let's not push those opening altitudes too low - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Most people have no frame of reference for skydiving. NASCAR is big, but most people who watch it drive. Football is big, but most have run and thrown a football before. Very few folks have made a skydive and most of them were just tandems. People can't understand it, they can not relate to it. That's very true Ron. Even deeper in the reasoning: 1) Almost everyone I have ever spoken to about the sport - with a few brave exceptions are scared sh*tless about the very concept. Even young males - not all, but much more than you would expect - They think we're freaks basically; daredevils only - not skilled - 2) Shows like "Real Video" love to show takes of people spinning in, breaking legs - with a "stupid people" notation attached. The jump off the space needle was just on the other day - Basically, a mockery. 3) Football and baseball are great, 'cause someone can sit in an armchair and shout out "what a bum!" as if they could do it better, run farther, not have fumbled. Armchair quarter backs. The fantasy is not there with skydiving. They know most would never get in the plane, let alone get out of one. One could find exceptions to this, of course, but not a lot. It'z not about money either. People can spend a lot of money on Golf if you go to the right courses with $1,000 drivers. A years worth of cigarettes for a heavy smoker is big bucks too - People will find the money if they want to do it (didn't we?) TOM "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky