steve1

reply] It takes years of 'solid' commitment to achieve our blazing speed! You can say that again! I don't know if it's all the twinkies, or all the beer I've been drinking this winter, but I'm now shopping for a full figured jump suit. The other ones I own make my ass look big!....Steve1

I started with static line training back in the 70's, when I began sport jumping. I also made close to 50 military static line jumps during that time period. I've never felt that scary falling feeling that you mentioned. There's just too much air to have any kind of falling sensation. Even out of a Cessna.....Steve1

..................................................... I don't know why we didn't try launching a chunk back in the early 70's. Even out of a Cessna, one guy fell base and the others tried to catch him. I recall many loads when I was close to last out of a DC-3 or twin beech. The plan was that all the really skinny bastards would leave late. This often didn't have much to do with skill level. You'd never know that I was once a skinny bastard, but yes I was. Some times you would really have to squint to figure out where the star was at, and then spend a whole lot of time trying to get down there. A lot of the twin beeches we jumped had this little tiny door, and it was hard to get everyone out fast. Things were simple then, all you had to remember was to find the star and try to get in before time ran out.....Steve1

That was so many years ago that I'm having trouble recalling all the details. I do remember a very long tear near the apex. There was no way to ride it in without serious injury. The old 28 ft. rounds may have indeed been tough. I recall some that had a lot of burn holes in them, yet people were still jumping them. As, I mentioned earlier, I have a friend (Hod Sanders) who made over a 1,000 jumps on an old rag. He bought it from a guy in the Green Beret Parachute Club. He said he didn't trust the new canopies such as para-commanders. He ended up on a World Championship team with B.J. Worth, Jerry Bird, and others. And he was still jumping this old canopy with duck tape all over it. After a jump most of the team could land in the landing area, but Hod was often blown way over into the South forty. It was holding their group up to wait for him. Finally B.J. gave Hod an ultimatum. "You either get another canopy, or quit the team." So, he traded in his old rag for another canopy.....Steve1

As usual I'm getting way off subject here, but will ramble on anyway. I remember double L modifications, and 7 TU's. I also remember someone talking about a 9 TU on a T-10. (Anyone else remember this or maybe this is a fig newton of my imagination.) In about 1970 we jumped a T-10 in the army, that had a round hole in the back. You'd pull a couple of safety forks out of your risers right above your capewells and then the risers would actually slide through the upper part of your capewell when you made a turn. I think this gear was quickly scrapped as a poor idea. Anyone ever heard of this set up? I don't know what year the military went to anti-inversion netting. I saw a picture of it a few years back and asked on here, "What's that?" At any rate it was probably a good idea. I remember a lot of May West (line over malfunctions). Anti-inversion netting was NOT used in the 70's. Some jumpers ended up riding a May West into the ground. There often wasn't time to pull you yourserve, then throw it out in the direction of spin before you smucked in. Most static line jumps were from 1200 feet for training purposes in the military. On some night jumps it might have been so dark you had a hard time seeing your hand in front of your face let alone checking out your canopy for distortions. And on top of that you had to worry about dropping your equipment on a lowering line before landing. All from 1200 feet. During those days someone came up with the bright idea of tying a string around your leg and rucksack( which hung below your belly reserve). Supposedly this would keep it from flying up on exit. Mine was usually too heavy to fly up. But anyhow there you were with a million other canopys floating down in the black of night, and you were fiddling with some damn string on your leg. You had to check for malfunction, untie this damn string, before you could even think about dropping your ruck (at tree top level), and who knows where tree top level was, because again you often couldn't see your hand in front of your face. Combat jumps were from 500 ft. I never did one, but have heard some jumpers didn't even use a reserve. There wasn't time to do much with it from that altitude.....Steve1

I kind of figured this was coming. The US military has had very high standards. You couldn't get in without being a High School graduate or having a GED. You also needed a fairly clean record and a drug test etc. Now this seems to be changing. Two girls in our school are now in basic training. Both have been locked up numerous times for drug use and other crimes. Both are high school drop outs. One is Bipolar and extremely unstable. Somehow they both enlisted in the National Guard under some new program. Is this a sign of things to come? I imagine it would help with the enlistment problem, but should people like this be allowed in? During the Vietnam era many criminals were told you either go to Nam or you go to jail. I wouldn't want people like this watching my back in combat.....Steve1

This is a picture of some old Montana jumpers. Dave Tousey is way to the left. Next is his Nancy Kraus, Pug, Fred, me, Murray. B.J. Worth is looking out the door. I'm almost certain that this is Wally Benton's (Bubble nosed Beech from Star, Idaho) I'm just wondering if this could have been the same aircraft that this band died in. I got my first kiss pass from Nancy. But then again most of the club probably did too....There weren't many girl jumpers tough enough to jump back then.....Steve1

This guy just blew up his ragged out 28 ft. canopy. I'm not sure which panel was blown out, but he ripped it from stem to stern and had to cut away. Gees, it feels good to be alive after doing something like that!.....Steve1

The names of those people on your 1,000th jump bring back a ton of memories. I think I may have jumped with Fletcher Mousefield once. If I remember right he made some early jumps in a tin can and had his own canopy. I heard he even burned in once and survived. Sorry I missed his funeral! Old Murray was a character. The first time I met him was in the University Center (at the U of M). He was trying to sell a first jump course to me, and I took it hook line and sinker. He used to wear a tooth brush on a string around his neck back in those days. So, I asked him why. He said that toothbrush had a lot of sentimental value. He went on to say, "Yes it means a lot to me I lost it once, and then I found it." I can picture him in free-fall with a mouse, in a bubble, scurrying about, on his head. He loved to have fun. And I hear he's some type of Doctor today. He was a Russian Major for years. He was no doubt smarter than most of us back then. Sometimes he'll still make a jump with us if you beg him hard enough. The last one may have been about five years ago...Steve1

I was wondering if Fred was the first Montanian to break a 1,000 or 2,000 jumps back in the 70's. He and Dave Tousey had more jumps than any jumper I knew back then. I think Fred had more than Dave. They're both jumpers that I have a ton of respect for....Steve1

Ah yes.. Feet....... Butt.......Head..... Motorcycle helmet GOOOOOOOOD. . Yep, I know exactly what you're talking about....Steve1

They were called rags in our part of the country (Montana) during the early 70's. I had a friend who made over a 1,000 jumps on a 28 ft. round. Now that's what you call tough!.....Steve1

Swing land trainers are a real asset to teaching and learning PLFs. I don't think anyone can do PLF's better than someone who is former airborne. I don't know how many broken bones some of our ist jump training classes had, but there were a bunch. In every class there was usually a broken bone or two. If only more time was spent doing PLF's or possibly using a swing land trainer, this could have prevented. Most first jump classes spent about 20 minutes on PLF's and that was supposed to be enough. No wonder their were so many injuries. In the army you spend two weeks doing these before that first jump from an aircraft while in "fright". I felt really good on that one and only training class, when I was an instructor. I may have had only 50 sport jumps, but I could teach a really good PLF and there wasn't a single injury in that class. I just passed on what I learned in the Army Jump School. To survive landings on windy days (back then), there were a few things you needed. Number one was being physically fit and young. A good motorcycle helmet saved my noggin a lot of times. A pair of French Jump boots were an asset. A good spot helped a lot. If all else failed a good PLF would usually save your bacon....Steve1

Quote But speaking as a person who takes an antidepressant and who has had periodic brushes with depression for many years, I don't see any reason why a person who is managing their condition can't skydive, or even why it should be anybody else's business. Personally, and I can only speak for myself, if I'm having a problem with depression I don't even want to skydive and won't even go out to a dropzone. For me, skydiving requires a degree of confidence and feeling good about myself in order to get on the plane, if I'm not feeling good about life the last thing in the world I want to do is amuse myself by taking a calculated risk on my life. .................................................................. >>>>I think this is well said. There are a ton of people out there who take anti-depressants. It doesn't mean they are suicidal. Many of these same people are jumpers. Does it indicate that they have a greater chance of suicide?...possibly, but I doubt that this is a huge red flag, or probably not much more danger than the average jumper. I see it as someone who recongizes their problem and is handling it the right way. I took an SSRI anti-depressant myself for a few years. I took it mainly to deal with stress, I was going through at work, but then again, I have had some serious bouts of depression myself. Most of my family are alcoholics. That's how they deal with their depression...self medicating their troubles away with boose. My brother drank himself to death a few years back. Is this a better choice? I think not. Yet many think that getting drunk on a regular basis is more of a normal behavior than taking an anti-depressant medication. .................................................................... I also think a lot of mental health professionals are nutty as fruitcakes themselves. A lot of them aren't even MDs anyway and I'm not about to let some nutty PhD pass judgement on my ability to safely enjoy myself. reply] .................................................................. >>>>>You know, I've noticed this myself. A lot of mental health professionals do seem a little off at times. Some more than others. This may not be a bad thing, in most cases. Many of these professionals have known the pain and suffering that go along with mental illness. They have experienced it themselves, and they have a lot more empathy for someone else who is going through the same thing. In therapy, you deal with some pretty abstract stuff, (at times). It's really hard to understand if you've never known at least some dysfunction in your own life. It's kind of like learning to play basketball. Who would you want for a coach? Someone who's never played basketball before himself, would likely be a poor coach. But then again, you wouldn't want a therapist who still is a nut case either. Therapy can make a huge difference, in my opinion. It helped me a lot, when I needed it. The key is getting the right therapist. Some are great, while others can be dangerous. Use your gut instincts, on this. If a therapist seems like a quack there is a good chance you're right. Find a different one. Self help books can help also. They are a whole lot cheaper than therapy. Actually clinical psychologists (who have a PHD) are probably the best at therapy. That is what they specialize in. Psychiatrists are medical doctors who specialize in medication. They've also had training in therapy. Licensed Clinical Professional Counselors LCPC's have a masters plus a couple years of supervised practice at therapy. They are probably less expensive than a Psychiatrist or Clinical Psychologist....Steve1

I paid $50. for the first jump class in 1971. Our student gear was a B-12 container and a military belly reserve. The static line was tied onto the cones with break cord. I remember helping pack some of these rigs when I only had about 30 jumps. We all wanted to help, and I'm not sure if there was such a thing as an instructor rating back then. Maybe there was, but a lot of rules were bent. We'd take the string from gutted out 550 cord and use this for break cord. We were taught not to cut away...just pull your reserve with a total and throw it out in the direction of spin with a partial. We were taught cut-aways a little later, when most of us went to para-commanders. Lot's of people still jumped rags (mostly 7-TU 28 foot rounds). Para-commanders were the canopy of choice though. Para-planes were just coming out. I remember paying about $300. for a new Red Devil P.C. I had to drop out of school to save up enough cash for a new rig. Bought a new Super Pro container and harness. This was really hot gear for that time period. I remember being a PLF instructor when I only had about 50 jumps. Can you imagine an instructor with only 50 jumps now days? The most senior member of our club had about 500 jumps, with most people having a whole lot less. Those were the days! "Really Scary!" when you get to thinking about it....Steve1

Great story Krkeenan! Back in the early 70's we used to practice cut aways quite a bit from a suspended harness. I don't recall a single person covering their cape wells with one arm. So, I guess we were all pretty lucky to have cheated death come cut-away time. I had two cut aways back then. I didn't kick my legs out much on either. On my last one I distinctly remember falling almost face to earth, after chopping. I remember tugging more than once on that damn, tight, stylemaster reserve handle, and then watching as the 24 ft. reserve strung out to my side. I ended up with two sprained ankles in a rock pile after crash landing under a wildly oscillating reserve. If only I had worn my Frenchies that day instead of those damn tennis shoes. At any rate this has me wondering about training procedures back then. I quit in about 75. Could that method of covering your cape wells have been developed after about 75. Or maybe our club was just behind the times. Some of our instructors, back then, only had a couple hundred jumps with little formal training themselves. So, it's no wonder many of us didn't get the message. Most of us survived those years. I didn't know anyone who died from a snagged reserve anyhow....Steve1

Oh, not at all. I guess I'm not very good at writing humor. I didn't mean for anyone to take my last post seriously. (And this is such a serious subject.) I thought your post was really funny though, and maybe it is good to inject some humor here. I needed a good laugh. I don't think I could keep working as a counselor, without laughing on a regular basis. It really helps a person keep their sanity in a crazy world...Steve1

You know, I think you may be onto something. I had no idea, until you started listing the symptoms, that most of my friends, and maybe even myself are showing all the signs of Bipolar. Oh shit! What do we do now!.....Steve1

Some times I think people put too much faith in mental health professionals. I'm just a school counselor, but I hope to be licensed soon as a LCPC. I work with psychologists on a regular basis, and have taken a lot of students to them for evaluation. The more I do this, the more I realize that there is quite a bit of guess work on their part as to predicting whether or not a person really is suicidal. Most of these professionals have a check list of questions along with observation of the client that they evaluate. Sure they can make a decision, but quite often it is the wrong one. A lot of truly suicidal people can put on a very convincing act, just to get released. A diagnosis from a metal health professional is quite often the wrong one. They will document their decision in a effort to avoid a law suit, but I often wonder how much guess work is also involved. For example one of the highest rates of suicide is found in bi-polar clients. This can be very hard to diagnose. I attended a seminar recently where a Psychiatrist stated that it often takes seven to eight years to get an accurate diagnosis of bi-polar. The problem is that many suicidal bipolar clients often kill themselves in the first two or three years of suffering from this mental health disease. There are many kids in school suffering from bi-polar illness yet they are being diagnosed as ADHD. I had one professor in college who stated that having a Doctorate in Psychology is a lot like being a witch doctor, because the human brain is so complicated and there is so little we actually know about it. The field of Psychiatry has only been around since the 1950's. It wasn't too long ago when someone with mental problems might have been bled, hanged as a witch, or in some cases their heads were shaved and the warm lungs of a lamb placed on their noggin to draw out the poison. Sure we've come a long way. We are learning new things at a very rapid rate. Brain scans for example are beginning to unravel a lot. But I still look at the diagnosis of many mental health professionals with skepticism. Even they have a difficult time coming up with the right diagnosis. Predicting the potential of suicide is not always easy, even by a Doctor. A professional's educated guess would probably be far more accurate than a DZ owner's though. If the element of doubt is large enough, they should be grounded. I wouldn't want to be jumping with a suicidal person. If they are thinking of taking their own life, they might not mind taking you with them. If I owned a DZ I'd have to be a cold hearted old bastard and say they coldn't jump. It isn't worth taking the risk. You might be saving their life, by grounding them. They might hate you for a while, but thank you later on....Steve1

Yes, but it does not mean you will not either. I think a clinically depressed person should be cleared to skydive by a mental heath professional. Skydiving Instructors, or DZO's that I know are not qualified to make that call. That being said I don't think that anti-depression meds should automaticly ground anyone either. But I think that is a case for a mental heath professional as well. ............................................................... That's a good point. A mental health professional should make that call. This could get real complicated though. Many many people have been evaluated for depression and their confidential records are locked up in a file cabinet somewhere. If you ask that therapist if so and so was a client, he'll say that he can't tell you that. These records might be found with a court order, but I doubt if anyone will bother to search a person's background that closely just to make a parachute jump. And then there are all those thousands and thousands of people out there, who are clinically depressed, but they have never seen anyone concerning their problem. Men, in particular, are seldom willing to go in and get the help they need. So I agree a mental health professional should make that call. I also hope things never get to the point where everyone has to have a mental health exam just to start jumping. I think most people could probably pass such an exam, even if they had a serious problem with depression, if they weren't honest with their therapist. Just some random thoughts....Steve1

I looked at a book recently that went on and on about how at one time in America we had many more freedoms than we do today, and that our Government is in the process of undermining our rights. The author of this book was an intellectual kind of guy, with a lot of degrees behind his name, and it got me thinking. It is understandable that at one time we had a lot fewer laws than we do today. At one time we had fewer people and things were a lot easier to manage. And in some ways maybe there was more freedom for most folks then. But then I got to thinking...it wasn't too many years ago that even slavery was allowed in this country. That might have been great if you were white, but really crappy if you were black. Then I thought about rights that went along with the Freedom of Speech. I think it's really great that we have the right to complain about our government without fear of reprisal. In todays world we can do that, but even in America this wasn't always the case. I read a news clipping recently, that here in Montana, there was a law on the books that stated that you could be imprisoned if you complained about the war effort, during World War 1. I figured, "What the Hell, this couldn't be!" But, yes it was true. Many were put in the Lock up for several years just for complaining about Uncle Sam's involvement in that war. There was a German immigrant who had a small homestead near Billings. One day a rally was held in town to support the war effort. Everyone was getting all wound up over this, and someone had the great idea of going out to this German's farm and making him buy some Liberty Bonds. So, a gang of these "do gooders" went out to his farm and threatened the poor guy. When he refused to buy any war bonds, they started to hang him. This was broken up when the German's wife came out of the house with a baby in her arms, pleading for her husbands life. But, this wasn't the end of the story. The poor guy was later locked up in Prison for several years because he was still complaining about the war. His baby son later died of dysentary, and he was not allowed to attend, because he was in the state pen. So, at any rate, all this get you thinking about our present rights as Americans versus the past. What's your opinion....Steve1

Just because you are depressed does not mean you are going to commit suicide. ........................ I agree totally. Skydiving has actually helped a ton of people deal with their problems with depression....Steve1

Great story Dave!

QuoteThere is not much you can do to prevent this kind of thing if the person doesn't show any outward sign of instability.reply] I've known a lot of skydivers who may have shown many signs of instability, but they weren't suicidal. But don't discount this either, because it could be a factor. People who commit suicide often leave a trail of signs, before actually committing the act. If a person starts talking about their own death or suicide, don't take this lightly. That is what is on their mind, and they may be contemplating doing just that. It's almost like a cry for help that many people discount. If you are in doubt, come right out and ask that person if they are thinking of committing suicide. This won't put the idea in their head, and they may just say yes. If they have a lethal plan in mind, it is time to get worried, and get help for that person. These are some warning signs that come to mind: 1. Is there a history of suicide in the family 2. Males are 4 times more likely to complete an act of suicide than females. Females have a greater problem with depression but they often choose less lethal means (where there is a chance to change your mind, before dying) . Men often choose very lethal means that often have a bloody end. 3. Ethnicity...The White Race has the highest rate of suicide 4. Is there a history, present or past, of mental illness. 5. Have their been previous suicide attempts 6. Substance abuse problems or even drinking on top of depression can lead to suicide. 7. Has the client had any recent losses in their life. 8. Childhood abuse (particularly sexual abuse) is a big red flag 9. Impulsivity 10 Current physical problems 11. Big changes in their normal behavior 12. Current medications 13. Are lethal means available (Skydiving for example) Guns are often the choice of suicide. (Particularly for men) A screening instrument may not work, because not everyone is honest on this. So this probably wouldn't help a DZ much. Counselors often talk to family members. Their imput can help greatly, if they are reliable. Some people who commit suicide actually start feeling less depressed prior to the act. So a lift in spirits is not always a good sign. If a person starts giving away their stuff this can be a red flag. One more thing...May has the highest rate of suicide of any month. These are some facts that come to mind, (when evaluating suicide). I may have missed some others that are important. I'm just a school counselor so I refer any student out who meets some of these criteria and a Psychologist makes the hard decision of what to do next. If a student is talking about suicide and has a plan...I get them help. Suicide is very preventable in most cases, if they can get the help they need. It's interesting to note that even most normal people have felt suicidal at some time in their life. If this feeling persists or keeps coming back get yourself help. Most people may have little insight on this problem. It's hard to imagine why or how anyone could take their own life. Depression can cause great disability and is a huge killer. According to the World Health Organization 1.53 million people will kill themselves in the year 2020....Steve1

There's not many immigrant workers where I live, so there was no affect here. I felt myself getting angry though, watching this on the tube. So, it did affect how I felt.....Steve1